Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

The current pressing need is for US governors to accept President Trump's offer of US national guard troops to restore order and prevent looting. Law & order must be restored, but it needs the assent of state governors to do this.

The President, feeling stung by the refusal of various governors to give assent to deployment of said national guard troops, is threatening to deploy the US military itself to restore law & order in cities. This threat, howsoever really intended to push back against the stubbornly uncooperative governors, is nevertheless contrary to Posse Comitatus and fundamental restrictions on deployment of the US military on American soil.

Various top military generals, as well as the Secretary of Defense, are openly contradicting the President in opposing the President's statements on possible use of the US military. Various Republicans are likewise refusing to back the President. Some in the conservative media are decrying the dissenting voices of the generals and SecDef, and are calling for them to respect chain-of-command.

Look, I understand that Trump is only making the threat of US military deployment as a negotiating pressure tactic against the governors - but I think that sanctity of Posse Comitatus should not be violated, even with mere threats.

I blame the governors for their refusal to accept national guard troops, which they are blocking for petty partisan reasons. I feel they are the root culprits here. They are being putting party over country - they are allowing cities and streets and shops to burn, just to cater to their increasingly radical base. I don't blame Trump for wanting to threaten the governors right back using the threat of US military deployment, but I feel he shouldn't go that route, because it crosses a fundamental line, and it's just too un-American. When the other side are being nuts and are transgressing fundamental lines, then the answer is not to one-up them by transgressing even more fundamental lines from your own side. This is a partisan game of chicken that can result in the country losing.

The Never-Trumpers and Swamp Republicans are of course now coming out to cackle "I Told You So! We always knew Trump's too crazy!"

The best route for rank-and-file Republicans would be to quietly but urgently counsel the President to take a different course, and do so without shoving this issue into the media limelight, and thus cause the President to dig in.

The better course of action to offer to the President is to take his case to the people, and to have voters call-text-mail-message their governors to tell them to accept national guard troops to restore order.

Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

Their reasons aren’t petty or political. The governors could all end those protests with their available manpower if the wanted to. They’ve decided they don’t want to for various reasons but which likely boil down to “a heavy hand would make things worse.”

Trump is try to usurp their authority. I’d tell him to pound sand too.

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

Gaius46 said:

What I think you might be missing is that the governors don’t need the help. They have plenty of manpower to deal with protesters. They have decided for whatever to not be heavy handed. Trump’s offer is simply to allow him - Trump - to control how the protest response is handled, which undoubtedly would be with a heavy hand.
If I was a governor I’d decline as well. His help is not needed.

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Trump's offer is simply to protect hard-working Americans, which the governors did not do ... due to lack of manpower.

Couple of examples where business owners called the police and were basically told: "You're on your own. We don't have the manpower."

Dental clinic owner says Minneapolis police couldn'''t respond while vandals destroyed his business | Fox News

'''It was a war zone''': Small-business owners who lost everything in riots speak out | Fox News

Violent, armed looters overrun Santa Monica Music Center: '''They took everything from us, and no one stopped them''' | Fox News

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

Barnacle said:

Trump's offer is simply to protect hard-working Americans, which the governors did not do ... due to lack of manpower.

Couple of examples where business owners called the police and were basically told: "You're on your own. We don't have the manpower."

Dental clinic owner says Minneapolis police couldn'''t respond while vandals destroyed his business | Fox News

'''It was a war zone''': Small-business owners who lost everything in riots speak out | Fox News

Violent, armed looters overrun Santa Monica Music Center: '''They took everything from us, and no one stopped them''' | Fox News

Click to expand...

It was the 2nd day of protesting in Minneapolis when the gov called-in the NG at the request of the mayor and other local leaders, despite the BS that Trump said in His usual divisive manner of tweets. Asked about Trump’s tweets, which also criticized him, the mayor, Jacob Frey, said, “Weakness is refusing to take responsibility for your own actions. Weakness is pointing your fingers at somebody else at a time of crisis. Donald Trump knows nothing about the strength of Minneapolis.” No, the military is not needed. The NG was called in at the time it became necessary, on the 2nd day of protesting before 4:46PM, Thursday, May 28.

Frey: Unrest 'unacceptable'; Trump promises to step in - StarTribune.com

Minnesota governor calls in National Guard in response to riots

All that blow-hard Trump did was promise shooting by the military.

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

Kind of weird that your talking about military in the streets now when it's mostly peaceful even solemn protests going on. Lots of cities have lifted their curfews, agitators are being arrested.
Seems as if the governors did the right thing refusing troops on the ground. People are practicing their first amendment rights everywhere except maybe DC where they've built a wall around the Whitehouse and have armed militias on the streets.
I tell you I stayed home until Trumps speech and walk to the church. I've been out everyday since then.
It's kind of sad the president tells governors to negotiate with a few armed people in their capital building then turns around and tells governors bring in the military to shoot people during this massive 50 state, many country event.

sanman said:

The current pressing need is for US governors to accept President Trump's offer of US national guard troops to restore order and prevent looting. Law & order must be restored, but it needs the assent of state governors to do this.

The President, feeling stung by the refusal of various governors to give assent to deployment of said national guard troops, is threatening to deploy the US military itself to restore law & order in cities. This threat, howsoever really intended to push back against the stubbornly uncooperative governors, is nevertheless contrary to Posse Comitatus and fundamental restrictions on deployment of the US military on American soil.

Various top military generals, as well as the Secretary of Defense, are openly contradicting the President in opposing the President's statements on possible use of the US military. Various Republicans are likewise refusing to back the President. Some in the conservative media are decrying the dissenting voices of the generals and SecDef, and are calling for them to respect chain-of-command.

Look, I understand that Trump is only making the threat of US military deployment as a negotiating pressure tactic against the governors - but I think that sanctity of Posse Comitatus should not be violated, even with mere threats.

I blame the governors for their refusal to accept national guard troops, which they are blocking for petty partisan reasons. I feel they are the root culprits here. They are being putting party over country - they are allowing cities and streets and shops to burn, just to cater to their increasingly radical base. I don't blame Trump for wanting to threaten the governors right back using the threat of US military deployment, but I feel he shouldn't go that route, because it crosses a fundamental line, and it's just too un-American. When the other side are being nuts and are transgressing fundamental lines, then the answer is not to one-up them by transgressing even more fundamental lines from your own side. This is a partisan game of chicken that can result in the country losing.

The Never-Trumpers and Swamp Republicans are of course now coming out to cackle "I Told You So! We always knew Trump's too crazy!"

The best route for rank-and-file Republicans would be to quietly but urgently counsel the President to take a different course, and do so without shoving this issue into the media limelight, and thus cause the President to dig in.

The better course of action to offer to the President is to take his case to the people, and to have voters call-text-mail-message their governors to tell them to accept national guard troops to restore order.

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I make a motion for blue States to faithfully enforce our own laws regarding the whole and entire concept of employment at the will either party for unemployment compensation in any at-will employment State.

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Click to expand...

danielpalos said:

I make a motion for blue States to faithfully enforce our own laws regarding the whole and entire concept of employment at the will either party for unemployment compensation in any at-will employment State.

Click to expand...

For people whose businesses have been destroyed, their investment which is in some cases their life's investment, is now gone. That's more than a mere employment issue.

You imagine that wrongdoing can be glossed over with a penstroke of ordering "compensation" - but unless the culprits are held accountable, they'll just see themselves as having a license to do the same thing all over again at any time of their choosing.

sanman said:

For people whose businesses have been destroyed, their investment which is in some cases their life's investment, is now gone. That's more than a mere employment issue.

You imagine that wrongdoing can be glossed over with a penstroke of ordering "compensation" - but unless the culprits are held accountable, they'll just see themselves as having a license to do the same thing all over again at any time of their choosing.

Click to expand...

Bailing out the insurance sector could mean an opportunity for infrastructure development.

Why would it need to happen again with equal protection of the laws?

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

Middle_Ground said:

Kind of weird that your talking about military in the streets now when it's mostly peaceful even solemn protests going on. Lots of cities have lifted their curfews, agitators are being arrested.
Seems as if the governors did the right thing refusing troops on the ground. People are practicing their first amendment rights everywhere except maybe DC where they've built a wall around the Whitehouse and have armed militias on the streets.
I tell you I stayed home until Trumps speech and walk to the church. I've been out everyday since then.
It's kind of sad the president tells governors to negotiate with a few armed people in their capital building then turns around and tells governors bring in the military to shoot people during this massive 50 state, many country event.

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Bring in the military to shoot people? Armed militias? I don't think so. And nobody is talking about attacking protesters using their first amendment rights. Not to mention these agitators (as you call them) who are actually criminals robbing civilians, burning down their livelihoods, murdering cops, blocking interstates, are being bailed out the next day for another night of raping these cities by Biden campaign officials and idiotic celebrities.

If you don't think voters, store owners, and innocent civilians aren't seeing this for what it is, you are making a grave mistake.

danielpalos said:

Bailing out the insurance sector could mean an opportunity for infrastructure development.

Why would it need to happen again with equal protection of the laws?

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Bail-outs don't come for free. You're trying to spin destruction of business as infrastructure development, when it represents value lost.

You want to turn everyone into a happy comatose cheque recipient in lieu of being a productive independent earner.

Productivity is what gives a nation and its currency value. Without that, the currency would be worthless.

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

Condor060 said:

Bring in the military to shoot people? Armed militias? I don't think so. And nobody is talking about attacking protesters using their first amendment rights. Not to mention these agitators (as you call them) who are actually criminals robbing civilians, burning down their livelihoods, murdering cops, blocking interstates, are being bailed out the next day for another night of raping these cities by Biden campaign officials and idiotic celebrities.

If you don't think voters, store owners, and innocent civilians aren't seeing this for what it is, you are making a grave mistake.

Click to expand...

Well as a voter, business owner, innocent civilian who has decided to practice my first amendment rights I see what this is and maybe just maybe you can open your eyes and see what it is to.
Just a anecdotal example....the dallas man that was beaten before it was on the news my son in law showed me a video of the beating as seen by a Dallas police officer, a few hours later a fuller video is shown of the machete wielding guy before he's beaten. It's a good thing there was video.
Tear gassing and beating people with batons because they are collectively walking down a street is not okay.
Those that start throwing things, start fires, loot (steal) should be charged, jailed & prosecuted...its that simple.

And if the Biden campaign is bailing out people that are practicing their first amendment rights...let me go donate. Thanks for the info.

sanman said:

For people whose businesses have been destroyed, their investment which is in some cases their life's investment, is now gone. That's more than a mere employment issue.

You imagine that wrongdoing can be glossed over with a penstroke of ordering "compensation" - but unless the culprits are held accountable, they'll just see themselves as having a license to do the same thing all over again at any time of their choosing.

Click to expand...

Not making making lite of any of the looting, but don't most business owners have insurance? You could have a random burglary or an accidental fire and loose everything.

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

Middle_Ground said:

Well as a voter, business owner, innocent civilian who has decided to practice my first amendment rights I see what this is and maybe just maybe you can open your eyes and see what it is to.
Just a anecdotal example....the dallas man that was beaten before it was on the news my son in law showed me a video of the beating as seen by a Dallas police officer, a few hours later a fuller video is shown of the machete wielding guy before he's beaten. It's a good thing there was video.
Tear gassing and beating people with batons because they are collectively walking down a street is not okay.
Those that start throwing things, start fires, loot (steal) should be charged, jailed & prosecuted...its that simple.

And if the Biden campaign is bailing out people that are practicing their first amendment rights...let me go donate. Thanks for the info.

Click to expand...

Over 500 arrest made in New York in one night for looting and terrorizing the community and you think those are people practicing their first amendment rights?

Then they are bailed out on felony criminal charges by Biden campaign officials and you think they are going beck out to practice their first amendment rights?

You just simply ignore the riots in dozens of cities and everyone is just practicing their first amendment rights?

And the only people being confronted by police are only those practicing thier first amendment rights?

The cops that have been murdered, and the NY cop stabbed in the neck while his two back up officers were shot, is this your idea of practicing your first amendment rights?

Thank you so very much for your unwavering support of the millions of voters who are being convinced every day that you, and others like you, are putting a blind eye to the real problem for political posturing.

We appreciate your help. Keep up the great work.

sanman said:

The current pressing need is for US governors to accept President Trump's offer of US national guard troops to restore order and prevent looting. Law & order must be restored, but it needs the assent of state governors to do this.

The President, feeling stung by the refusal of various governors to give assent to deployment of said national guard troops, is threatening to deploy the US military itself to restore law & order in cities. This threat, howsoever really intended to push back against the stubbornly uncooperative governors, is nevertheless contrary to Posse Comitatus and fundamental restrictions on deployment of the US military on American soil.

Various top military generals, as well as the Secretary of Defense, are openly contradicting the President in opposing the President's statements on possible use of the US military. Various Republicans are likewise refusing to back the President. Some in the conservative media are decrying the dissenting voices of the generals and SecDef, and are calling for them to respect chain-of-command.

Look, I understand that Trump is only making the threat of US military deployment as a negotiating pressure tactic against the governors - but I think that sanctity of Posse Comitatus should not be violated, even with mere threats.

I blame the governors for their refusal to accept national guard troops, which they are blocking for petty partisan reasons. I feel they are the root culprits here. They are being putting party over country - they are allowing cities and streets and shops to burn, just to cater to their increasingly radical base. I don't blame Trump for wanting to threaten the governors right back using the threat of US military deployment, but I feel he shouldn't go that route, because it crosses a fundamental line, and it's just too un-American. When the other side are being nuts and are transgressing fundamental lines, then the answer is not to one-up them by transgressing even more fundamental lines from your own side. This is a partisan game of chicken that can result in the country losing.

The Never-Trumpers and Swamp Republicans are of course now coming out to cackle "I Told You So! We always knew Trump's too crazy!"

The best route for rank-and-file Republicans would be to quietly but urgently counsel the President to take a different course, and do so without shoving this issue into the media limelight, and thus cause the President to dig in.

The better course of action to offer to the President is to take his case to the people, and to have voters call-text-mail-message their governors to tell them to accept national guard troops to restore order.

Click to expand...

If you expect Republicans who have completely surrendered themselves to trumpism and eagerly lined up to be his 100% toadies to "fix" this, you're in a fantasy world.

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

Condor060 said:

Over 500 arrest made in New York in one night for looting and terrorizing the community and you think those are people practicing their first amendment rights?

Then they are bailed out on felony criminal charges by Biden campaign officials and you think they are going beck out to practice their first amendment rights?

You just simply ignore the riots in dozens of cities and everyone is just practicing their first amendment rights?

And the only people being confronted by police are only those practicing thier first amendment rights?

The cops that have been murdered, and the NY cop stabbed in the neck while his two back up officers were shot, is this your idea of practicing your first amendment rights?

Thank you so very much for your unwavering support of the millions of voters who are being convinced every day that you, and others like you, are putting a blind eye to the real problem for political posturing.

We appreciate your help. Keep up the great work.

Click to expand...

What you just mentioned is probably less that one half of one percent of the people protesting peacefully. Lock up the law breakers and move on. No one needs the US military to get that done. Trump's rhetoric is nothing more than a dictator strong man tactic that he somehow thinks will help him get re-elected. He is, as usual, wrong. People have become repulsed by Trumps policies. He would do himself a lot of good if he stayed out of all of it.

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

The AntiDonald said:

What you just mentioned is probably less that one half of one percent of the people protesting peacefully. Lock up the law breakers and move on. No one needs the US military to get that done. Trump's rhetoric is nothing more than a dictator strong man tactic that he somehow thinks will help him get re-elected. He is, as usual, wrong. People have become repulsed by Trumps policies. He would do himself a lot of good if he stayed out of all of it.

Click to expand...

You have the Mayor of New York, REFUSING to bring in the National Guard, REFUSING to hold the criminals arrested on felony charges, REFUSING to allow his police force to aggressively handle the situation while 10 days of robbing his citizens, burning down their livelihoods, stabbing one cop in the neck, officers being shot AND KILLED, store owners beaten in the streets, and we should just let New York Mayor handle it?

While you need look no further than Detroit Police chief William Hart who put down the riots with proper action in one night?

Yeah, lets just ignore New York, let them handle it. Thats what voters will see come November.

sanman said:

The current pressing need is for US governors to accept President Trump's offer of US national guard troops to restore order and prevent looting.

Click to expand...

Or... Not.

What the police should be doing is avoiding violent confrontation with protesters. Contrary to some people's beliefs, coming in with a huge show of force, especially when heavily militarized police all over the US are acting more like counter-protesters than protectors, and when the protests are about police brutality, is counterproductive and encourages more violence and disorder. (e.g. Why So Many Police Are Handling the Protests Wrong | The Marshall Project)

One useful tactic is for police to keep their distance, show up in ordinary uniforms, and have riot police ready nearby. That way, if there is a problem, the officers can be protected. In turn, giving protesters a wide swath and a channel to march will avoid a lot of conflict.

If police need national guard to back them up, then that should be the call of the local or state governments, not the federal government.

Instead, police are assaulting protesters, firing rubber bullets at protesters, using tear gas, kettling, and other tactics which infuriate and harm citizens; creates the kind of chaos that gives cover to those who want to cause violence; and overall makes the situation worse.


The exception to Posse Comitatus as implemented by the Insurrection Acts are somewhat vaguely worded, because Congress relies on the POTUS to abide by the norms and values of our democratic institutions. Of course, that is exactly what Trump has spent the past 3 years pissing on at every opportunity.

Our only real saving grace in this mess is that Trump is basically full of s***. He talks like a big man, but it's all bluster. He wants to get his way, but he doesn't want any of the actual responsibility. We can't count on that forever.

I blame the governors for their refusal to accept national guard troops, which they are blocking for petty partisan reasons. I feel they are the root culprits here.

Click to expand...

They're the "root culprits?"

Did you not notice that people are protesting police brutality and racism? That they've protested it in various forms for years? That the conservative reaction to peaceful protest against police brutality and racism has been howls of disdain? Yeesh.

They are being putting party over country - they are allowing cities and streets and shops to burn, just to cater to their increasingly radical base.

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:roll:

No one is "allowing" rioting. It's that violent responses by the police engender more violence, and the chaos gives cover to those who want to engage in violence for their own ends.

Don't forget, a lot of those governors are Republicans, who most certainly are not catering to "radicals" involved in the current protests against police brutality and racism.

The best route for rank-and-file Republicans would be to quietly but urgently counsel the President to take a different course, and do so without shoving this issue into the media limelight, and thus cause the President to dig in.

Click to expand...

Hahahahahaha

Who do you think you're dealing with? A rational person? No.

Trump is a creature of impulse, who cares more about superficial gestures than anything of substance. That's why he was totally fine with using federal law enforcement agents to clear out a park of peaceful protesters, so he could do a photo op in front of a damaged church that he almost never visited, holding up a Bible he doesn't read.

Plus, elected Republican officials have become spineless simps who are terrified to cross Trump, lest they get slapped with a nasty Tweet and end up getting primaried.

No, the real solution here is:
- Make police actually accountable for their actions
- Train police how to de-escalate situations rather than storm in violently from the start
- Stop treating the TV show "Cops" like it's a training manual for local police
- Step back from the rampant militarization of police
- Provide municipalities with better resources to handle people who are mentally ill
- Use proper tactics to keep protests peaceful
- Start taking structural racism seriously

After all, we've been doing the opposite of that for a few decades, and it is clearly not working.

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

Condor060 said:

You have the Mayor of New York, REFUSING to bring in the National Guard,

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Does a Mayor have that authority? I'm pretty sure only a Governor can employ a State's national guard.

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

ecofarm said:

Does a Mayor have that authority? I'm pretty sure only a Governor can employ the state's national guard.

Click to expand...

Don' attempt to use legal facts here...

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

ecofarm said:

Does a Mayor have that authority? I'm pretty sure only a Governor can employ a State's national guard.

Click to expand...

Both refused to bring in the guard. Cuomo and de Blasio.

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

Condor060 said:

Both refused to bring in the guard. Cuomo and de Blasio.

Click to expand...

A mayor has no authority to employ the national guard.

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

ecofarm said:

A mayor has no such authority.

Click to expand...

The fact that both refused is all voters need to see

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

Condor060 said:

The fact that both refused is all voters need to see

Click to expand...

But we also see you claiming he refused to employ them when we know he had no ability to do so.

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

Barnacle said:

Trump's offer is simply to protect hard-working Americans, which the governors did not do ... due to lack of manpower.

Couple of examples where business owners called the police and were basically told: "You're on your own. We don't have the manpower."

Dental clinic owner says Minneapolis police couldn'''t respond while vandals destroyed his business | Fox News

'''It was a war zone''': Small-business owners who lost everything in riots speak out | Fox News

Violent, armed looters overrun Santa Monica Music Center: '''They took everything from us, and no one stopped them''' | Fox News

Click to expand...

Even if we assume that it’s true that he wants to protect hardworking citizens - and frankly I don’t believe it - it is not his job. Police powers reside with the states. The only times he can assert federal authority is if Federal cannot be enforced or if the states can no longer the civil rights of the citizens.

Re: Law-&-Order vs Posse Comitatus

ecofarm said:

But we also see you claiming he refused to employ them when we know he had no ability to do so.

Click to expand...

Then you should run with that. I don't think its going to make much difference when you have de Blasio

Releasing the hundreds of felony criminals arrested for crimes against its citizens the next day

Refusing to allow his police force to use aggressive tactics to stop this

His cops murdered, stabbed, and shot in the street

And 10 days of robbing, beating, and burning down the livelihoods of his citizens.

While making his personal appearance on TV telling everyone he won't allow the national guard to intervene.

So telling people he doesn't have the authority isn't going to help much.

Especially when you have the police chief of Detroit able to put down his riots by using the proper force to counter these terrorist.

Going to fall on deaf ears come November