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Voter fraud is a myth

Deuce said:
He actually already posted the data and it showed that he was hilariously wrong.

It was 1200-something cases over 20 years. (so, out of about a billion votes cast)

And only thirteen of those votes were in-person voter impersonation, the only type of voter fraud that voter ID laws stop.
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then the facts demonstrate there were only 13 instances where a voter ID would have eliminated voter fraud in the last 20 years

that would make this proposed imposition of voter ID to be a solution in search of a problem
 
Jay59 said:
You make an excellent case against vote-by-mail. Was that your intent?
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No.



the only thing that bothers me about vote by mail, is that it is a statistical fact that poorer neighborhoods are more error prone, which tends to get ballots tossed in the spoiled file. This happens with elderly voters, as well. So, repubs would be affected, too.
 
Grim17 said:
The people who downplay the issue of voter fraud forget one simple fact... Voter fraud is very difficult to detect. It only gets investigated if someone makes a legitimate or credible claim that it took place. States don't go looking for it unless they absolutely have to.
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I posted a number of studies where it was investigated. You do know that ballots have a number of checks built into the system, right? In fact, it's been shown that a lot of votes were tossed because of incompetent signature matching, which are done, not by experts, but by clerks. Far more votes are rejected wrongfully than are accepted wrongfully, that's what the studies show.
If you want to get an idea of the voting fraud that's taken place, just some that's been discovered, here's a state by state list for you that shows 1285 proven instances of voter fraud since the George W. Bush administration.

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1200 cases over a 20 year period via billions of votes cast? That's not a problem of voter fraud.

In fact, I was going to post my rebuttals to the Heritage's foundation's assertions that voter fraud is a problem, when their own numbers prove that it is not.

Their only argument is that "we haven't detected the vast numbers that are out there, yet"

Well, in 20 years they found 1200. BFD.

Voter Id causes the disinfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of voters, and the best they can do is find 1200 cases over 20 years?
 
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OscarLevant said:
They mailed ballots to dead people.

The dead DID NOT cast ballots.


This is a voter roll cleansing problem, not a voter fraud problem
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He is trying so hard....
 
Grim17 said:
Sorry, but there have been nearly 30 times more voter fraud cases than they claim.

1285 Proven instances of voter fraud
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So, they found, over a 20 year period, almost 1300 cases.

That's out of billions of votes cast.

That is proof that voter fraud occured,...........


a little.

But not enough to constitute a voter fraud problem.

See, Voter IDs have the practical effect of disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of voters.

The studies prove this.

So, Voter ID disenfranchises hundreds of thousands of voters in order to catch, what? A handful of voter fraudsters?


Sorry, it's a solution in search of a problem.
 
Grim17 said:
Since 2000 I believe, an the number of total votes cast is absolutely irrelevant. The op stated voter fraud was a myth, and I just posted 1285 instances that refute that claim.

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I'm using the term 'myth' metaphorically, as in not very much, rarely, not literally.
 
OscarLevant said:
No. the only thing that bothers me about vote by mail, is that it is a statistical fact that poorer neighborhoods are more error prone, which tends to get ballots tossed in the spoiled file. This happens with elderly voters, as well. So, repubs would be affected, too.
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You, or anyone else, have not even tried to show that the ballots get to the right place and that they are all get collected and processed correctly. That's square one, so you are currently at the starting line. Will you try to get things going?
 
Grim17 said:
Again, the number of votes cast is irrelevant.

It is very difficult to detect voter fraud. The state doesn't even investigate for voter fraud unless credible evidence surfaces or someone makes a credible complaint. Even that being the case, there has still been 1285 proven cases that have taken place that were caught... Can you imagine how many instances have taken place that haven't been detected?

Voter fraud happens and you either support it, or you oppose it... I oppose it and want steps to be taken to insure that the integrity of our elections is protected.

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The only way we can tell the size and scope of the problem is to measure the discovered cases of fraud against the number of votes cast.

It is very relevant.

there have been many studies, court opinions based on those studies ( and judges have an obligation to get it right ) and thus far, it's not significant to constitute a problem.

What I don't support is the fact that, as a practical matter, voter ID laws result in the disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of voters.

so, we have no proof of significant voter fraud, but we do have proof of disenfranchisement.

We should create policy based not on supposition, but what is known.
 
Grim17 said:
I guess I'll put you down for a "yes" then... You have no problem with voter fraud and have no interest in protecting the integrity of our elections.

.
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Do you want the vote to reflect more accurately the will of the electorate?

yes or no?


If you support Voter ID, you are saying no.

Why? because voter ID has the practical effect of disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of voters.


That number is vastly greater than the number of fraudulent votes cast.

So, if you are for Voter ID, then you are against maintaining the most integrity we can achieve.

Either way, it won't be perfect, the issue is, which way is more perfect?

Voter ID, means it is much less perfect.
 
OscarLevant said:
The only way we can tell the size and scope of the problem is to measure the discovered cases of fraud against the number of votes cast.
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In that case you have a major problem. Massive numbers of ballots have gone missing in prior elections.

Between 2012 and 2018, 28.3 million mail-in ballots remain unaccounted for, according to data from the federal Election Assistance Commission. The missing ballots amount to nearly one in five of all absentee ballots and ballots mailed to voters residing in states that do elections exclusively by mail.​
28 Million Mail-In Ballots Went Missing in Last Four Elections | RealClearPolitics

It is very relevant. there have been many studies, court opinions based on those studies (and judges have an obligation to get it right ) and thus far, it's not significant to constitute a problem. What I don't support is the fact that, as a practical matter, voter ID laws result in the disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of voters. so, we have no proof of significant voter fraud, but we do have proof of disenfranchisement.
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:spin:
It's not significant enough in your mind. Pardon if I doubt you impartiality.

We should create policy based not on supposition, but what is known.
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Full agreement. What is known is that we cannot be sure of security, even now. It would be pure supposition to expect fair results with expanded use.
 
Jay59 said:
In that case you have a major problem. Massive numbers of ballots have gone missing in prior elections.

Between 2012 and 2018, 28.3 million mail-in ballots remain unaccounted for, according to data from the federal Election Assistance Commission. The missing ballots amount to nearly one in five of all absentee ballots and ballots mailed to voters residing in states that do elections exclusively by mail.​
28 Million Mail-In Ballots Went Missing in Last Four Elections | RealClearPolitics


:spin:
It's not significant enough in your mind. Pardon if I doubt you impartiality.


Full agreement. What is known is that we cannot be sure of security, even now. It would be pure supposition to expect fair results with expanded use.
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... there is no evidence that the millions of missing ballots were used fraudulently
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Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
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what are the chances that those 20% of the ballots were never mailed in to be counted. while that's the most logical explanation, you are invited to offer a better one
 
justabubba said:
what are the chances that those 20% of the ballots were never mailed in to be counted. while that's the most logical explanation, you are invited to offer a better one
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What does the article say?

I'll add this observation from the article.

The inherent problems of mail-in voting are being widely ignored, however. Use of mail-in ballots more than doubled from 24.9 million in 2004 to 57.2 million in 2016, and around 40% of U.S. votes are now done by mail. Along with this dramatic increase there have been virtually no new safeguards, scrutiny, or additional research on the risks of vote by mail. If the current pandemic is going to force the issue during a presidential election, proponents of voting by mail may have to address obvious risks that come with proposing that more than 200 million ballots be mailed out this fall.

“I really think the only reason vote-by-mail problems are not getting more attention on a regular basis, is that it's kind of an embarrassing problem and people just aren’t paying attention,” says Churchwell. “These numbers of missing ballots demonstrate large voter list maintenance failures and security gaps within the broader mail voting process.”​
 
Jay59 said:
In that case you have a major problem. Massive numbers of ballots have gone missing in prior elections.

Between 2012 and 2018, 28.3 million mail-in ballots remain unaccounted for, according to data from the federal Election Assistance Commission. The missing ballots amount to nearly one in five of all absentee ballots and ballots mailed to voters residing in states that do elections exclusively by mail.​
28 Million Mail-In Ballots Went Missing in Last Four Elections | RealClearPolitics


:spin:
It's not significant enough in your mind. Pardon if I doubt you impartiality.


Full agreement. What is known is that we cannot be sure of security, even now. It would be pure supposition to expect fair results with expanded use.
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It's just proportional thing, over 20 years, billions of votes cast, and the Heritage foundation has found only 1285 documented cases of fraud.

We don't know to know the exact amounts cast, but it's billions over 20 years, and the amount of fraud, well, it's very small.
 
OscarLevant said:
It's just proportional thing, over 20 years, billions of votes cast, and the Heritage foundation has found only 1285 documented cases of fraud. We don't know to know the exact amounts cast, but it's billions over 20 years, and the amount of fraud, well, it's very small.
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Only, you say, as if it were not more than enough. We have 20% of the ballots going missing. We have studies showing the potential for fraud is much greater with mail ballots.

If you are willing to prevaricate at this level, there is no truth in you.
 
Jay59 said:
Only, you say, as if it were not more than enough. We have 20% of the ballots going missing. We have studies showing the potential for fraud is much greater with mail ballots.

If you are willing to prevaricate at this level, there is no truth in you.
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the solution recommended by those on the right is that every voter have a voter ID document
in 20 years only 13 voters have shown up to vote at the polls where they were ineligible
that voter ID requirement would cause a LOT more voters to be denied their vote than the 13 who voted illegally in the 20 year span
thus that voter ID is not a worthwhile solution to the perceived problem

so, what do you propose to better insulate the mail-in ballot from being abused by those who are ineligible to vote?
 
justabubba said:
the solution recommended by those on the right is that every voter have a voter ID document in 20 years only 13 voters have shown up to vote at the polls where they were ineligible that voter ID requirement would cause a LOT more voters to be denied their vote than the 13 who voted illegally in the 20 year span thus that voter ID is not a worthwhile solution to the perceived problem so, what do you propose to better insulate the mail-in ballot from being abused by those who are ineligible to vote?
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I am not following the logic here. You seem to be saying that with an ID requirement, there is still fraud, hence fraud is not a problem. This makes no sense at all.

I also do not believe the number reported. Under reporting issues seems to be the norm. 20% of mailed ballots go missing and no one bothers to report it. That's a massive issue with mail ballots, yet it gets brushed aside.

What I am not getting concern that elections should be fair. It seems to be lacking in the whole discussion.
 
Jay59 said:
I am not following the logic here. You seem to be saying that with an ID requirement, there is still fraud, hence fraud is not a problem. This makes no sense at all.

I also do not believe the number reported. Under reporting issues seems to be the norm. 20% of mailed ballots go missing and no one bothers to report it. That's a massive issue with mail ballots, yet it gets brushed aside.

What I am not getting concern that elections should be fair. It seems to be lacking in the whole discussion.
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13 in-person illegal votes in 20 years is not something that needs to be fixed; especially not when the "solution" would deprive many citizens who would otherwise be eligible to vote but for the voter ID imposition

then you turned to mail-in voting being a concern because 20% of the voters receiving the ballot did not cast it
my suggestion was a lot of that 20% probably blew it off, or voted in person, not requiring a mail in ballot any longer
others may have moved from the address where it was sent
but since it is such a major concern to you, my invitation is for you to explain what should be done to make mail-in ballots less susceptible to abuse. in short, how would you fix this perceived mail-in ballot problem?
 
OscarLevant said:
Voter Fraud, as the studies show, this is clearly a myth.
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Oh yeah, giggle, clearly.

Except for the 1200 cases the Heritage Foundation has on its website.

And the two entire books by John Fund of mostly Democrat-committed voter fraud.

I'm absolutely sure you're familiar with all of that, right?:lol:

Fat freaking chance.
 
Termn8or said:
Oh yeah, giggle, clearly.

Except for the 1200 cases the Heritage Foundation has on its website.

And the two entire books by John Fund of mostly Democrat-committed voter fraud.

I'm absolutely sure you're familiar with all of that, right?:lol:

Fat freaking chance.
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1200 cases.

Out of a billion votes.

Voter ID could have hypothetically stopped thirteen of those cases. Out of a billion.

I'm absolutely sure you're familiar with all of that, right?

And you want me to believe that voter ID is necessary.

Fat freaking chance.
 
justabubba said:
13 in-person illegal votes in 20 years is not something that needs to be fixed; especially not when the "solution" would deprive many citizens who would otherwise be eligible to vote but for the voter ID imposition then you turned to mail-in voting being a concern because 20% of the voters receiving the ballot did not cast it
my suggestion was a lot of that 20% probably blew it off, or voted in person, not requiring a mail in ballot any longer others may have moved from the address where it was sent but since it is such a major concern to you, my invitation is for you to explain what should be done to make mail-in ballots less susceptible to abuse. in short, how would you fix this perceived mail-in ballot problem?
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Worse and worse. On one hand you have one in five ballots unaccounted, but you bemoan people deprived of a vote. Do you not see a contradiction?

If anything, we are too permissive, not too restrictive.
 
Jay59 said:
Worse and worse. On one hand you have one in five ballots unaccounted, but you bemoan people deprived of a vote. Do you not see a contradiction?

If anything, we are too permissive, not too restrictive.
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13 walk-in voters voting illegally in 20 years is not a problem requiring a solution
so, let's focus on mail-in voting

what would you suggest needs to change to eliminate abuse of absentee ballots?
 
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