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The most oppressive tyranny that I can imagine

Checkerboard Strangler said:
Reporters visit anti-lockdown protests and finds Trumpers are even crazier than you think



Today’s PSA, from Civil Rights attorney Peter James:

“But my liberties and rights!”

I’m glad you asked about that, because I’m a lawyer. In fact, I’m a lawyer who specifically deals with liberties and rights on a daily basis.

First of all, you have been temporarily inconvenienced, not oppressed. You have not lost a single right. Not one.

Your right to assembly, you say?

Your right to assemble is fully intact. Yes, it is. That right is the right of free association, not the right to gather wherever you feel like it whenever you feel like it. It means that the government can’t prohibit you from joining organizations.

And they aren’t. Not one governmental entity out there is saying you can’t be part of Citizens for Pro-Plague Nuttery.

What they are saying right now is that you can’t hold public gatherings of more than a certain number of people.

The Supreme Court has long upheld “time, place, and manner” restrictions on things like public gatherings. Those don’t infringe upon your rights, according to SCOTUS, if they are within a certain well-defined framework.

Honestly, this is less draconian than quarantines of the past. Most of you don’t know that because we haven’t had to do this in a very long time, like 75 years long time. But back before we had vaccines to a lot of things, if the government so much as suspected you had measles or smallpox, you would get your house sealed up and you didn’t go *anywhere* for two or three weeks while they shoved a few casserole dishes under the door. They’d put a big sign on the door that says “no entry or exit” and if you tried, some burly men would “politely explain” to you why that was not permitted. You didn’t go out for essentials. You didn’t go out for a walk. And they didn’t have Netflix or Instacart back then.

There is no constitutional right to own a business or go to work. Not in there. I’m sorry some of you are suffering, and I feel for you. I legitimately get that some of you are going to lose a lot from this and possibly everything you built. But it’s not a right. You didn’t have that right before, which is why people go bankrupt or get laid off or have their business ventures fail.

Again, you have been temporarily inconvenienced, not oppressed.

But let’s say for the sake of argument, you have had an actual, honest-to-goodness right infringed. You haven’t, but let’s just say you did.

That’s not the end of the story. The government *can* infringe on your rights. Oh yes, they can, and legally so.

How much the government infringes on your rights only changes the level of scrutiny the Court applies. If they are going to fully deprive you of a fundamental right, they need to have a compelling reason to do it and their actions need to be narrowly tailored to the harm being prevented. Public health and safety, especially where it comes to highly infectious diseases, has been upheld as a compelling governmental interest that can override fundamental rights including the right to free exercise of religious beliefs.

And stay-at-home orders are narrowly tailored, too. You can go out to stores for essentials, you can leave your house to go for a walk, you can get food delivered to you. You can go for a drive just to get out if you want. It just closes non-essential businesses that by design put lots of people in a confined space. That is narrowly tailored to the things causing the pandemic to spread the most.

It is not liberty to require human sacrifice to the gods of capitalism. It is not liberty to put people in danger. It is not liberty to indirectly kill people.

You do not have a right to endanger me and my family because you want to have a beer with the fellas at the corner pub.

You do not have a right to commit negligent homicide.

Edit: I wasn't expecting this to go viral. Apparently, I need to add a bit of addendum and disclaimer.

Questions and rational dissent are welcome. Insults, general aggravating comments, picking fights, trolling, and asshattery are not. Keep it civil or I will just delete your comment and block you, and frankly I won't lose a minute of sleep over it. If you're not sure how to dissent without sounding like an asshole about it, post a picture of a cute baby animal. Your displeasure will be duly noted.
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The best part of your left winger post is that the reporter is wearing a mask with a breathing vent and you don't know why that is funnier than the people he is interviewing.
 
j brown's body said:
Do you think keeping children in cages for our own good bothers Trump's conscience, or yours?
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seemed to work for obama. you didn't seem to have an issue.
 
armycowboy said:
Wearing a mask is tyranny now?
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The best way for the 999 out of 1000 who are not mortally threatened by the CCP virus to protect the 1 in 1000 who are, is to get sick and get over it.
 
bricklayer said:
The best way for the 999 out of 1000 who are not mortally threatened by the CCP virus to protect the 1 in 1000 who are, is to get sick and get over it.
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You are very fortunate to live in a time in America where whining about public health is tolerated. That has not always been the case. Feel lucky today...

wear a mask, wash your hands
 
Questerr said:
Why am I not surprised that a white male American has no ****ing clue what real oppression or tyranny looks like.
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An obscured, but obvious problem. Whites have oppressed everyone else for centuries, and we're supposed to take our cues about freedom and tyranny from them?

They have no clue. Prisoners of their own privilege and arrogance.
 
bricklayer said:
The most oppressive tyranny that I can imagine is one that enforces safety first.

As C. S. Lewis wrote, "Those who oppress us for our own good will oppress us without end because they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
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More oppressive than Jim Crow laws? More oppressive than the Inquisition? More oppressive than slavery?
 
bricklayer said:
The most oppressive tyranny that I can imagine is one that enforces safety first.

As C. S. Lewis wrote, "Those who oppress us for our own good will oppress us without end because they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
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Probably Communist China or Communist Russia rank a little higher than this. Though it is always a balance with the general welfare of the nation and the rights of its people.

Though the right isn't new to Big Brother, been doing this "safety first" thing since before 9/11.
 
lwf said:
Freedom is more important than safety, but that doesn't mean that we can't make some sacrifices to our freedom for the sake of safety. It should always a matter of degree, and we should err on the side of freedom as long as lives aren't at stake, and if they are our sacrifices should be reasonable and applicable to the problem. I.E. in the event of a global pandemic or enemy invasion, we sacrifice the freedoms we enjoy during times of prosperity in order to protect our fellow man.
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Yes, it does. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1755

You can sacrifice your freedoms if you like for the illusion of "safety," but don't dare to presume to sacrifice mine. If government wishes to deprive me of my liberty they are going to have to demonstrate due process in a court of law first.
 
Glitch said:
Yes, it does. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1755

You can sacrifice your freedoms if you like for the illusion of "safety," but don't dare to presume to sacrifice mine. If government wishes to deprive me of my liberty they are going to have to demonstrate due process in a court of law first.
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They already have. Do you have the freedom to enter your neighbors land? Or do you voluntarily sacrifice that freedom of movement in order to keep yourself safe from people trespassing onto your land?
 
There was a time in America when the freedom to obey the law was highly valued. :2wave:
 
lwf said:
They already have. Do you have the freedom to enter your neighbors land? Or do you voluntarily sacrifice that freedom of movement in order to keep yourself safe from people trespassing onto your land?
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I have the freedom to do whatever I please. If I choose to trespass on my neighbor's land then government must present evidence proving beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law that I committed this offense before they seek to deprive me of my liberty. That is called "Due Process," and it applies anytime government seeks to deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or property. Including during pandemics.
 
Glitch said:
Yes, it does. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1755

You can sacrifice your freedoms if you like for the illusion of "safety," but don't dare to presume to sacrifice mine. If government wishes to deprive me of my liberty they are going to have to demonstrate due process in a court of law first.
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Oh please. Patriot Act, Real ID Act, FISA, etc. Y'all have been sacrificing for a long time. But now that you're being asked to wear a mask outside in time of global pandemic...NOW it's an issue?

Laughable.
 
Glitch said:
I have the freedom to do whatever I please. If I choose to trespass on my neighbor's land then government must present evidence proving beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law that I committed this offense before they seek to deprive me of my liberty. That is called "Due Process," and it applies anytime government seeks to deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or property. Including during pandemics.
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Unless you're black in Georgia...then white folk can grab their guns, jump in their truck, run you down and shoot you in the street.

lol
 
Ikari said:
Unless you're black in Georgia...then white folk can grab their guns, jump in their truck, run you down and shoot you in the street.

lol
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It should be a lesson to you: If you are unarmed, don't attack people carrying shotguns.

His Darwin Award is in the mail.
 
Glitch said:
It should be a lesson to you: If you are unarmed, don't attack people carrying shotguns.

His Darwin Award is in the mail.
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Ahh, so no due process for him, but heaven forbid you wear a mask in public during a global pandemic.

Wow
 
Glitch said:
I have the freedom to do whatever I please. If I choose to trespass on my neighbor's land then government must present evidence proving beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law that I committed this offense before they seek to deprive me of my liberty. That is called "Due Process," and it applies anytime government seeks to deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or property. Including during pandemics.
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"I often wonder whether we do not rest our hopes too much upon constitutions, upon laws, and upon courts. These are false hopes; believe me, these are false hopes. Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it. While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it."

Learned Hand.

Indeed, Hitler, and other tyrants, gain their power through legal means.
 
Glitch said:
I have the freedom to do whatever I please. If I choose to trespass on my neighbor's land then government must present evidence proving beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law that I committed this offense before they seek to deprive me of my liberty. That is called "Due Process," and it applies anytime government seeks to deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or property. Including during pandemics.
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Trespass on my land and your right to due process may be superseded by my right to protect my life, liberty, and property.
 
Glitch said:
I have the freedom to do whatever I please. If I choose to trespass on my neighbor's land then government must present evidence proving beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law that I committed this offense before they seek to deprive me of my liberty. That is called "Due Process," and it applies anytime government seeks to deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or property. Including during pandemics.
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Er...do you understand the concepts of reasonable suspicion and detention, probable cause and jail?

What you are talking about is only for a conviction and prison.

The government can and will deprive you of your rights without a conviction.
 
Glitch said:
It should be a lesson to you: If you are unarmed, don't attack people carrying shotguns.

His Darwin Award is in the mail.
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I'm sure hoping that the Darwin Awards are given to the two idiots who wanted to act like cops. Hope they rot in prison.
 
Drowning Man said:
Er...do you understand the concepts of reasonable suspicion and detention, probable cause and jail?

What you are talking about is only for a conviction and prison.

The government can and will deprive you of your rights without a conviction.
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I'm not referring to the Fourth Amendment at all actually. It has nothing to do with reasonable suspicion, probable cause, or even convictions. I'm referring specifically to substantive and procedural due process of law. As stated in the Fifth Amendment, "[No person shall] ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." Furthermore, the Fourteenth Amendment says, "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

It doesn't matter if it is a crime or a pandemic, if government seeks to deprive ANYONE of their life, liberty, or property they must present evidence before a court of law first. That means in order for government to quarantine anyone they must first present evidence before a court of law proving beyond a reasonable doubt the individual is infected, is contagious, and is an immanent threat to the public. Government is required to do this for each and every person they seek to confine, without exception.
 
Drowning Man said:
The government can and will deprive you of your rights without a conviction.
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I mean, of course they can. That's why I don't believe most of these internet Don Quixotes. They sit here and talk a big game about not wearing a mask and this and that. But government has been expanding for decades, both sides have increased it. Patriot Act, Reali ID Act, NSA Domestic Surveillance, etc. How many of these folk have been bitching about this stuff? How many were "up in arms" about that? Most of them still supported the parties that made and expanded these and more. The government can arrest you for whatever, there's enough laws that you're likely doing something wrong. But they ain't bitching about that.

No, they're only bitching now, talking a tough game now, that they've been requested to wear a mask during a time of global pandemic. Now it's outrageous, now it's over the line, now they're fighting the big bad government.

Anyone who was really concerned with the overreach of government and its uncontrolled growth have been voting Libertarian. Everyone else is just a used-car salesman. Talking up a game, but not doing anything to support it. And the MAGA-Hatters now have to pretend to be standing up against big bad government because of the propaganda narrative they wretch up at Trump's command...the response is a Democrat hoax meant to make Trump look bad. So they have to fight these things like the restrictions, like wearing masks, etc. because to spin their narrative, this all has to be made up hoax against Trump.

No, these internet Don Quixotes won't do anything about big government (in fact they support a President who claims to be immune to prosecution, has absolute authority, and claims to be able to shut down Congress...acts of a dictator), they'll continue tilting at windmills to push their propaganda so they can continue to vomit their narrative.
 
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