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Dow, wow

Big Pharma stocks that make Hydroxychloroquine are certainly on the rise. Trump, Wilbur Ross and GOP groups are invested in those companies that make HCQ, such as Sanofi.

I would like to read this.

Do you have a link to share?

...Never mind I found it.

Trump has very small financial tie to hydroxychloroquine producer - Business Insider

"Trump has a distant financial link to a pharma giant that makes the drug he's been pushing to fight COVID-19 — but it's probably worth less than $1,000"

WOW, a whole $1000.00:doh


https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...-almost-certainly-about-politics-not-profits/

In other words, Trump’s stake in Sanofi from each trust is between $33 and $495 — or between about $100 and $1,500 in total.
 
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Egads... No, it isn't.

Pyramid schemes are fake. There is typically no actual product. The schemer collects money from rounds of victims, and typically provides nothing in return. Sometimes the schemer will use the fraudulently acquired funds to pay back earlier investors; those investors can only get out if the schemer can't figure out how to keep them in. Left to their own devices, pyramid schemes collapse under their own weight, as the schemer is ultimately unable to recruit enough new victims to keep it going.

The stock market is a way of trading a quasi-ownership stake in a corporation. It's not a scam, it's just a repository for capital. Shareholders can buy and sell at will. When a corporation issues more stock, it almost always has a direct effect on the stock price. When the business is expected to do well, the stock price rises; when it is not expected to do well, the price falls. Executives are often paid in stock options.

It's true that stock prices are based a great deal on perception and expectations, rather than a mathematical formula derived from the company's profits; and some people who invest in the market are little more than gamblers, who are trying (and almost always failing) to beat the market, but yes stock prices are generally linked to the perception of the future health of the corporation.

Now do you know why I don't have any interest in reading the crackpot websites you've been reading...?

You think Motley Fool is a crackpot website??

"I have to agree that some stocks are Ponzi schemes, or at least, investors are buying into the future potential of companies that haven’t yet materialized. Stocks that pay regular dividends are thus less of a Ponzi scheme."

Is the Stock Market a Ponzi Scheme? - The Motley Fool Canada
 
You don't understand the concept of price discovery, and how it is related to supply and demand.

you simply don't understand the concept at all. I am still waiting for you to tell me how the stock market is a ponzi scheme.

The fact is something is only worth anything is something is willing to buy it.
the value of said thing is only worth what someone is willing to pay.
 
you simply don't understand the concept at all. I am still waiting for you to tell me how the stock market is a ponzi scheme.

The fact is something is only worth anything is something is willing to buy it.
the value of said thing is only worth what someone is willing to pay.

I have explained it and I just posted a link.

You don't understand basic economics.
 
You think Motley Fool is a crackpot website??

"I have to agree that some stocks are Ponzi schemes, or at least, investors are buying into the future potential of companies that haven’t yet materialized. Stocks that pay regular dividends are thus less of a Ponzi scheme."

Is the Stock Market a Ponzi Scheme? - The Motley Fool Canada

She’s right that investors are buying in future potential. Duh. That’s the frigging point.

She and the author she references at the beginning of the piece are wrong to call it a Ponzi scheme for all the reasons I’ve previously outlined. The fact that she wrote a piece for the motley fool is meaningless.
 
Money and stocks are useful, because they can be exchanged for goods. But money and stocks no longer have any scarcity. The Fed can generate all the money it wants, and companies can print all the stocks they want. Since companies don't usually pay dividends anymore, their stocks are not backed by anything. Supply (limit) is no longer a factor.

It is true, that both the Fed and companies can print all the notes that want, at a cost to those that have the present notes (applies to both stocks and currencies). In fact, they don't really have to print them at all anymore, it's all gone digital, so a click of the mouse. However, that cost to those that are holding the 'notes' before the increase presently in circulation are damaged when each note they have has a smaller worth. Quantitative Easing isn't a good thing, in that regard.

The value of stocks and of money now depend mostly on demand. Demand without supply limits means no real value.

Hence that Quantitative Easing isn't a good thing.
 
It is true, that both the Fed and companies can print all the notes that want, at a cost to those that have the present notes (applies to both stocks and currencies). In fact, they don't really have to print them at all anymore, it's all gone digital, so a click of the mouse. However, that cost to those that are holding the 'notes' before the increase presently in circulation are damaged when each note they have has a smaller worth. Quantitative Easing isn't a good thing, in that regard.



Hence that Quantitative Easing isn't a good thing.

Right, because, as I have been trying to explain, it disables supply, and all you're left with is demand. That can't work, in the long run.
 
I think whoever wrote that article is clueless about both stocks and Ponzi schemes.

Everyone you disagree with is clueless?
 
Everyone you disagree with is clueless?
lol... Definitely not.

But anyone who thinks "stocks that don't pay dividends are a Ponzi scheme" definitely qualifies as clueless.

By that logic, the following companies are Ponzi schemes:

Adobe
Amazon
CBRE
Salesforce
Electronic Arts
Google
L3
Netflix
Transocean
UnderArmor

To name just a few.

And of course, the woman who wrote that article also... wait for it... wrote an article on some good stock picks. One of the stocks she recommends is Berkshire Hathaway which... wait for it... doesn't pay a dividend, thus by her own measure is a "Ponzi Scheme." Can't make this stuff up.
Market Crash: The Best Ways to Invest $5,000 - The Motley Fool Canada
 
lol... Definitely not.

But anyone who thinks "stocks that don't pay dividends are a Ponzi scheme" definitely qualifies as clueless.

By that logic, the following companies are Ponzi schemes:

Adobe
Amazon
CBRE
Salesforce
Electronic Arts
Google
L3
Netflix
Transocean
UnderArmor

To name just a few.

And of course, the woman who wrote that article also... wait for it... wrote an article on some good stock picks. One of the stocks she recommends is Berkshire Hathaway which... wait for it... doesn't pay a dividend, thus by her own measure is a "Ponzi Scheme." Can't make this stuff up.
Market Crash: The Best Ways to Invest $5,000 - The Motley Fool Canada

I am not saying you can't make money with a Ponzi scheme. Obviously, you can make money with stocks, as long as they go up forever. But now that paying dividends is less common, the stock market is more disconnected from actual products than ever before. It is more Ponzi-esque, and like any Ponzi scheme it can eventually self-destruct.
 
I am not saying you can't make money with a Ponzi scheme.
You should, because the whole point of a Ponzi scheme is that the people running it make all the money, and the participants get screwed.

And again, Ponzi schemes are, from the ground up, a scam. Corporations and stocks are not scams.


Obviously, you can make money with stocks, as long as they go up forever. But now that paying dividends is less common, the stock market is more disconnected from actual products than ever before.
And again, that is sheer nonsense.

A dividend is when management decides to pay out some of the profits to selected shareholders. The company does this, in no small part, to encourage investors to buy the company's stock. In fact, it is very similar to a stock buyback; in both instances, the company is spending money to increase the value and thus price of the stock.

Offering or discontinuing dividends in no way "connects to the products."
 
You should, because the whole point of a Ponzi scheme is that the people running it make all the money, and the participants get screwed.

And again, Ponzi schemes are, from the ground up, a scam. Corporations and stocks are not scams.



And again, that is sheer nonsense.

A dividend is when management decides to pay out some of the profits to selected shareholders. The company does this, in no small part, to encourage investors to buy the company's stock. In fact, it is very similar to a stock buyback; in both instances, the company is spending money to increase the value and thus price of the stock.

Offering or discontinuing dividends in no way "connects to the products."

When you buy stocks you supposedly buy a share of the company. You own part of it. When companies pay dividends, they are sharing their profits among the owners. That was the original idea.

Now when you own a company's stocks, you are not really an owner. You can't sell your stocks back to the company. You can only make money on your stocks by selling them to a new investor, for more than you paid.

When a company doesn't pay dividends, there is no limit to how many shares it can print. Because it doesn't have to worry about the buyers of those stocks. They will never get shares of the profit, and will never have a say in how the company is run. They are not owners.

You define Ponzi schemes as all or nothing -- only the originator makes money and everyone else gets screwed. But there are many examples of businesses where the earlier investors do well and later investors do less well.

Maybe I should have said "pyramid" instead of Ponzi. Madoff ran a Ponzi scheme. With a pyramid, the primary way of earning money is by recruiting new investors, not by selling the product.

In either Ponzi or pyramid, investors get their profit mostly from newer investors.

According to these more accurate definitions, the stock market today is mostly a pyramid scheme.
 
When you buy stocks you supposedly buy a share of the company. You own part of it. When companies pay dividends, they are sharing their profits among the owners. That was the original idea.

Now when you own a company's stocks, you are not really an owner. You can't sell your stocks back to the company. You can only make money on your stocks by selling them to a new investor, for more than you paid.
More or less. Let's see what's next....


When a company doesn't pay dividends, there is no limit to how many shares it can print. Because it doesn't have to worry about the buyers of those stocks. They will never get shares of the profit, and will never have a say in how the company is run. They are not owners.
Sorry, that is not correct.

Dividends are not the same thing as voting rights. Those two aspects are independent from each other.

Companies often have different classes of shares. Some may have guaranteed dividends but not voting rights (preferred shares). Some classes have more voting power than others.

Offering dividends don't place any sort of limit on the total number of shares.

Plus, the markets react to issuance of new stocks. Investors don't like it when a company dilutes the stock. (The Dangers of Share Dilution)

On a side note: Companies set limits on the number of shares in its articles of incorporation. However, the number is usually so high, that companies never hit that limit. Anyway....


You define Ponzi schemes as all or nothing -- only the originator makes money and everyone else gets screwed. But there are many examples of businesses where the earlier investors do well and later investors do less well.
That's... because... Ponzi schemes are a specific type of fraud. Ponzi schemes don't have actual products or actual investments, they are completely fake. The scammer claims to be making real investments, but what he or she is really doing is taking money from new recruits to pay off the early investors. There are some instances where it starts out legitimate, and the organizer turns to fraud to hide losses. But the key is that it's not a real company with real profits and real products/services, it's a fraud.

E.g. Bernie Madoff took money from people, and at the start very likely provided real returns. Then he started lying about the returns, and claiming to offer modest but consistent returns month after month. The vast majority of investors did not withdraw their assets, so he fabricated paper returns for years on end, and Madoff was able to spend the money on himself and his family. It all came crashing down when too many people wanted to withdraw at once, and he couldn't cover the requests, because the money didn't actually exist.

Compare this to Tesla. There are lots of reasons to be critical of Tesla -- but it's not a fraud. They build actual products, which ship to actual customers, from actual factories. Tesla may be overvalued and its CEO may be far less professional than he ought to be, but anyone who says "Tesla is a Ponzi scheme because it doesn't issue dividends" has absolutely no idea what they're talking about.


Maybe I should have said "pyramid" instead of Ponzi.
Nope. That doesn't apply either.

Pyramid schemes are also frauds, with no real product (or products with no real value). The difference is that in a pyramid scheme, when a person is recruited, they are promised a share of the revenues generated by the people that they in turn recruit.

That's obviously not how stocks work. When you purchase stock, you are exchanging money (once) for the stock (once). If I purchase 10 shares of Apple stock, the person I bought it from gets $2,670 from me -- and that's it. The person who sold me their Apple shares do not get anything whatsoever if I sell all my shares for $3,000 or $30,000.
 
More or less. Let's see what's next....



Sorry, that is not correct.

Dividends are not the same thing as voting rights. Those two aspects are independent from each other.

I know, I didn't bother to spell all that out.

Pyramid schemes are also frauds, with no real product (or products with no real value). The difference is that in a pyramid scheme, when a person is recruited, they are promised a share of the revenues generated by the people that they in turn recruit.

No. Pyramid schemes often have real products. But selling the product is not very profitable, and you make a lot more by recruiting new salespeople. Of course, pretty soon everyone in the world who wants to sell Emma's broccoli flavored donuts is already selling them.

When you buy stocks, usually, you aren't buying a product, you are just buying paper (or, yes I know, bytes in a computer). It doesn't matter if the company makes profits, all that matters is whether people think they will make profits in the future.

The value of your shares depends entirely on demand. There is no real limit to the supply (as is the case now with dollars, because the Fed has decided supply can be infinite).

This is a pyramid, because there is no intrinsic value. Things can only have value when both supply and demand are involved.

And yes, our whole financial system is a pyramid.
 
No. Pyramid schemes often have real products....
I already said that, check my post.

Still, a Tesla Model 3 is not a valueless product, and Tesla is not a multi-level marketing company.


When you buy stocks, usually, you aren't buying a product, you are just buying paper (or, yes I know, bytes in a computer). It doesn't matter if the company makes profits, all that matters is whether people think they will make profits in the future.

The value of your shares depends entirely on demand. There is no real limit to the supply (as is the case now with dollars, because the Fed has decided supply can be infinite).

This is a pyramid, because there is no intrinsic value. Things can only have value when both supply and demand are involved.
zomg... such nonsense.

No one ever said that "buying a stock is buying the product." You're buying a small piece of quasi-ownership of the company. (That doesn't change if the stock offers dividends.)

Fiat currency is paper. That's not new.

There are limits to the supply of both stocks and currency. Again! The more of both that is issued, the lower the value. For stocks, that's dilution, and investors really don't like it when you make their investment worthless. For currency that's inflation, and yet again! the US has never had hyperinflation, and nothing that's happening now will cause hyperinflation.

There are obviously limits on both. We know exactly how many shares of a company are issued. We carefully measure inflation on a monthly basis.

You can predict hyperinflation from now until the cows come home. How many years of failed predictions does it take for you to accept that? 5 years? 10 years? 20? 50?
 
There are limits to the supply of both stocks and currency. Again! The more of both that is issued, the lower the value. For stocks, that's dilution, and investors really don't like it when you make their investment worthless. For currency that's inflation, and yet again! the US has never had hyperinflation, and nothing that's happening now will cause hyperinflation.

There are obviously limits on both. We know exactly how many shares of a company are issued. We carefully measure inflation on a monthly basis.

You can predict hyperinflation from now until the cows come home. How many years of failed predictions does it take for you to accept that? 5 years? 10 years? 20? 50?

You contradicted yourself. The more of both that is issued, the lower the value.

The supply of dollars has VASTLY increased. According to YOU, that lowers the value. For some reason, there has not been hyperinflation YET. But we know, and YOU KNOW, the dollar has been devalued by over-supply.
 
You contradicted yourself. The more of both that is issued, the lower the value.

The supply of dollars has VASTLY increased.
Good grief... We've been over this before.

Go back and read what I read about why we didn't have hyperinflation after 2008.

Better yet, you explain to me why we didn't have hyperinflation after 2008.
 
Good grief... We've been over this before.

Go back and read what I read about why we didn't have hyperinflation after 2008.

Better yet, you explain to me why we didn't have hyperinflation after 2008.

I don't know what comment in this big pile of comments you are referring to where you explained that. I don't remember you explaining it in any kind of way that made sense.

And you are commanding me to explain it? Just because I said that increasing the dollar supply devalues the dollar. Everyone knows that, and you even said it.

From what I heard, the banks just kept those trillions in reserves the Fed injected into them int 2008. I don't understand why. Or what prevents those trillions from getting out into the economy. And whatever prevents it, will it be prevented forever?
 
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