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Economics and Life

Glowpun

Glowpun

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Trump wants the country opened up for business by Easter. We understand the economic incentive of course. But what good is having a job if you are are dead?

Trump lashed out against the news people who he falsely claimed that they want him out of the picture. You all know of course that Trump strongly believes that his reelection will depend on the economy which at this point is not good.

Comments please especially from our Trump supporters. Allow me to add, however, slogans are not answers.
 
Glowpun said:
Trump wants the country opened up for business by Easter. We understand the economic incentive of course. But what good is having a job if you are are dead?

Trump lashed out against the news people who he falsely claimed that they want him out of the picture. You all know of course that Trump strongly believes that his reelection will depend on the economy which at this point is not good.

Comments please especially from our Trump supporters. Allow me to add, however, slogans are not answers.
Click to expand...
First off, no, he doesn't "want the country open". He's asking governors to evaluate their situations to see if there's any room for easing.
 
Glowpun said:
Trump wants the country opened up for business by Easter. We understand the economic incentive of course. But what good is having a job if you are are dead?

Trump lashed out against the news people who he falsely claimed that they want him out of the picture. You all know of course that Trump strongly believes that his reelection will depend on the economy which at this point is not good.

Comments please especially from our Trump supporters. Allow me to add, however, slogans are not answers.
Click to expand...

Flattening the curve has always been about hospital efficiency, not preventing people from getting sick. It just gets them sick over a longer time frame. Society will re-open. When it does, people who don't have it, will get it. Of those people, some will die. That is the cold hard truth.
 
Bullseye said:
First off, no, he doesn't "want the country open". He's asking governors to evaluate their situations to see if there's any room for easing.
Click to expand...

Without testing, how would one "evaluate their situation"?
 
Glowpun said:
Trump wants the country opened up for business by Easter. We understand the economic incentive of course. But what good is having a job if you are are dead?

Trump lashed out against the news people who he falsely claimed that they want him out of the picture. You all know of course that Trump strongly believes that his reelection will depend on the economy which at this point is not good.

Comments please especially from our Trump supporters. Allow me to add, however, slogans are not answers.
Click to expand...

Having a job is not much good if you are dead. But being alive without money isn't any good either.

The economy is being trashed, by the virus, but also by the governments' and the feds' attempts to fix it. Where are all those stimulus trillions coming from? What will be the eventual effect of all the printed money?

After spending all these zillions on the virus, will Medicare for all be possible? Will the old Medicare even survive? Is anyone thinking ahead?

Oh I know, we have to survive or else money doesn't mean anything. But without an economic system, survival doesn't mean much. There are too many of us to all go back to hunting and gathering.
 
Glowpun said:
Trump wants the country opened up for business by Easter. We understand the economic incentive of course. But what good is having a job if you are are dead?

Trump lashed out against the news people who he falsely claimed that they want him out of the picture. You all know of course that Trump strongly believes that his reelection will depend on the economy which at this point is not good.

Comments please especially from our Trump supporters. Allow me to add, however, slogans are not answers.
Click to expand...

99%+ of people will not die. Sometimes you have to make tough decisions when in a position of leadership and have to consider at what point the lockdown does more harm than good. Honestly, I believe Trump let the media bully him into overreacting. I think places like Sweden had the best approach by locking down those at risk and allowing the majority to carry on as normal but mindful of the pandemic.
 
Quantifying the value of old people is a complex equation with subjective variables. We could be here all week deciding on just how much is worth spending or losing on a per person basis. Fortunately, there's a faster way to arrive at acceptable costs. I'll start the bidding, for all the old people's lives, at $10. Do I hear $20.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Without testing, how would one "evaluate their situation"?
Click to expand...
In the briefing today they talked about 20 states that had 200 or less cases. That MIGHT be a start. Maybe step back from panic and apply common sense. For instance here in San Diego the Mayor closed hiking trails - some of widest open spaces in the city. I really don't know exactly what they're going to come up with. Apparently, Trump is draft some guidance from state governors who then, I assume, will pass down guidance to cities and counties.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Without testing, how would one "evaluate their situation"?
Click to expand...

Deaths. Which is kinda bassackwards but it's something. Eventually, with detailed mortality data, we could extrapolate infection rates. Whether death rates or infection rates, or both, we need federal guidelines for appropriate measures.
 
Bullseye said:
In the briefing today they talked about 20 states that had 200 or less cases. That MIGHT be a start. Maybe step back from panic and apply common sense. For instance here in San Diego the Mayor closed hiking trails - some of widest open spaces in the city. I really don't know exactly what they're going to come up with. Apparently, Trump is draft some guidance from state governors who then, I assume, will pass down guidance to cities and counties.
Click to expand...

The reason a lot of public space is closing is because with so many people not working, they are concentrating in those spaces the way they haven't normally, thereby increasing the risk of exposure.
 
ecofarm said:
Deaths. Which is kinda bassackwards but it's something. Eventually, with detailed mortality data, we could extrapolate infection rates. Whether death rates or infection rates, or both, we need federal guidelines for appropriate measures.
Click to expand...

Deaths are often weeks after initial infection and obviously require testing to confirm the cause of death. There is also the matter of vast differences among counties/cities within a single state - do we want the governors to use some average to make the call, to base it on the least or most affected counties/cities or to do (try?) something different for each county/city within that state? If businesses are allowed to open in "safer" county/city A but must remain closed in (nearby) "less safe" county/city B that would seem to encourage "visits" to county/city A from those living in county/city B (thus likely to increase the spread rate).
 
Bullseye said:
In the briefing today they talked about 20 states that had 200 or less cases. That MIGHT be a start. Maybe step back from panic and apply common sense. For instance here in San Diego the Mayor closed hiking trails - some of widest open spaces in the city. I really don't know exactly what they're going to come up with. Apparently, Trump is draft some guidance from state governors who then, I assume, will pass down guidance to cities and counties.
Click to expand...

Our Governor is taking his guidance from a State medical expert not Donald Trump. The Governors don’t care what Trump’s recommendations are.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Deaths are often weeks after initial infection and obviously require testing to confirm the cause of death. There is also the matter of vast differences among counties/cities within a single state - do we want the governors to use some average to make the call, to base it on the least or most affected counties/cities or to do (try?) something different for each county/city within that state? If businesses are allowed to open in "safer" county/city A but must remain closed in (nearby) "less safe" county/city B that would seem to encourage "visits" to county/city A from those living in county/city B (thus likely to increase the spread rate).
Click to expand...


If we have ten steps (depending on infection rate, death rate and population density) and counties are within a couple of each other then there should not be issues with crossing county lines for more lax measures. Cities within a county can be presumed of similar demographics thus recommended step. Counties will not vary wildly as the virus does not do that. There will be clusters of counties.
 
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ttwtt78640 said:
Deaths are often weeks after initial infection and obviously require testing to confirm the cause of death. There is also the matter of vast differences among counties/cities within a single state - do we want the governors to use some average to make the call, to base it on the least or most affected counties/cities or to do (try?) something different for each county/city within that state? If businesses are allowed to open in "safer" county/city A but must remain closed in (nearby) "less safe" county/city B that would seem to encourage "visits" to county/city A from those living in county/city B (thus likely to increase the spread rate).
Click to expand...

This is happening in my backyard. People are vacating New York City and moving to surrounding counties and states. There is no perfect answer that I have heard rom either side of this discussion.
 
Glowpun said:
Trump wants the country opened up for business by Easter. We understand the economic incentive of course. But what good is having a job if you are are dead?

Trump lashed out against the news people who he falsely claimed that they want him out of the picture. You all know of course that Trump strongly believes that his reelection will depend on the economy which at this point is not good.

Comments please especially from our Trump supporters. Allow me to add, however, slogans are not answers.
Click to expand...

From the snippets I have heard what you said above is untrue (a lie?). What I heard was opening up some areas that are less impacted than others. Clearly the governors have the final say. Not sure we should be guided by what is going on in NYC.
 
washunut said:
This is happening in my backyard. People are vacating New York City and moving to surrounding counties and states. There is no perfect answer that I have heard rom either side of this discussion.
Click to expand...

College towns must calculate infection and death rates, and pop density, including the loss of tens of thousands of population?

There are many complications, but recommendations on a scale of one to ten per rate and density is a reasonable expectation for federal guidelines.
 
Napoleon said:
Our Governor is taking his guidance from a State medical expert not Donald Trump. The Governors don’t care what Trump’s recommendations are.
Click to expand...

How many Governors you talk to?
 
washunut said:
This is happening in my backyard. People are vacating New York City and moving to surrounding counties and states. There is no perfect answer that I have heard rom either side of this discussion.
Click to expand...

Hmm... why not impose travel bans for COVID-19 "hot spots"? With lots (already millions) of unemployed people, the desire (urge?) to travel out of COVID-19 "hot spots" would seem to increase.
 
Drawdown said:
The reason a lot of public space is closing is because with so many people not working, they are concentrating in those spaces the way they haven't normally, thereby increasing the risk of exposure.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know that.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Hmm... why not impose travel bans for COVID-19 "hot spots"? With lots (already millions) of unemployed people, the desire (urge?) to travel out of COVID-19 "hot spots" would seem to increase.
Click to expand...

Interesting you mention that. I just read online that state troopers and national guard in Rhode Island are stopping New Yorkers at border. Ordering 14 day quarantine.
 
washunut said:
Interesting you mention that. I just read online that state troopers and national guard in Rhode Island are stopping New Yorkers at border. Ordering 14 day quarantine.
Click to expand...

I believe that Florida is doing something similar as well for folks coming from NY and NJ. Of course, "ordering" a quarantine is fairly useless without some reliable (effective?) enforcement mechanism.
 
Good4Nothin said:
Having a job is not much good if you are dead. But being alive without money isn't any good either.

The economy is being trashed, by the virus, but also by the governments' and the feds' attempts to fix it. Where are all those stimulus trillions coming from? What will be the eventual effect of all the printed money?

After spending all these zillions on the virus, will Medicare for all be possible? Will the old Medicare even survive? Is anyone thinking ahead?

Oh I know, we have to survive or else money doesn't mean anything. But without an economic system, survival doesn't mean much. There are too many of us to all go back to hunting and gathering.
Click to expand...

All the stuff is still here.

The food is still growing. All the trucks and the packing plants and the grocery stores are all sitting there waiting to be used.

The only thing that could get us to hunters and gatherers from here is stupidity and greed.
 
Good4Nothin said:
Having a job is not much good if you are dead. But being alive without money isn't any good either.

The economy is being trashed, by the virus, but also by the governments' and the feds' attempts to fix it. Where are all those stimulus trillions coming from? What will be the eventual effect of all the printed money?

After spending all these zillions on the virus, will Medicare for all be possible? Will the old Medicare even survive? Is anyone thinking ahead?

Oh I know, we have to survive or else money doesn't mean anything. But without an economic system, survival doesn't mean much. There are too many of us to all go back to hunting and gathering.
Click to expand...
You know, the bolded is an interesting thought. The British national healthcare system was instituted as a direct response to the needs following WW-II. Who knows what unintended & unforeseen consequences spring forth from all of this?
 
Bullseye said:
In the briefing today they talked about 20 states that had 200 or less cases. That MIGHT be a start. Maybe step back from panic and apply common sense. For instance here in San Diego the Mayor closed hiking trails - some of widest open spaces in the city. I really don't know exactly what they're going to come up with. Apparently, Trump is draft some guidance from state governors who then, I assume, will pass down guidance to cities and counties.
Click to expand...
That might work if there was exhaustive & comprehensive testing to identify the unknown infected individuals.

Remember, that two hundred infected is a snapshot of 2-3 weeks ago. There are many more today, and they are infecting (often unknowingly) many more.

Then we have the problem of individuals not remaining in their country or even state. Unless we limit egress & ingress to specific areas (we won't), we'll just be cross-infecting each other.

But yeah, these are very hard decisions. I'd personally keep the whole country lacked down hard, until we stop new transmission and identified the currently infected. But then I'm already stuck in a heavy growth area, and figure I'll continue to be locked-down for quite awhile. Even so, I'm resigned to other areas opening up - but be ready to quickly clamp back down!
 
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