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Communist countries

Decypher said:
And the socialist elements are what stops people from dying in the street or stringing up bankers from lampposts.
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No. The capitalist elements provide the jobs.
 
Decypher said:
No that’s what leads to bankers being strung from lampposts.
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With private, secure, money, there are no bankers. You would have realized that if had you thought about it for a moment, but like most leftists, your lust for lynching people and violence in general fogged up your wee brain.
 
Good4Nothin said:
No. The capitalist elements provide the jobs.
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So the public sector doesn’t employ anyone? And by dying in the street, I was referring to social welfare.
 
Decypher said:
Yeah can’t see it. Perhaps you missed the debate over healthcare in the last few years. But some version of Medicare for all will be implemented by the next Democrat president.
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Sorry, I was talking long term. Consider how long it took to get away from collective farms and state-run grocery stores.

Public schools are going nowhere
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Like all socialist institutions, they keep getting worse every year and at the same time more expensive every year. This cannot go on forever:

schools.jpg

and you didn’t even address every other element of the public sector.
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Why bother. It's mostly just waste and fraud anyway.
 
aociswundumho said:
With private, secure, money, there are no bankers. You would have realized that if had you thought about it for a moment, but like most leftists, your lust for lynching people and violence in general fogged up your wee brain.
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You’ve rushed into a conversation of which you have no understanding. I realize it’s pointless trying to describe basic elements of society to a Randian but I’m in a generous mood. A complex financial system employs people to run it, these are traditionally called bankers. You’re welcome. Now be quiet, the adults are talking.
 
Decypher said:
I realize it’s pointless trying to describe basic elements of society to a Randian but I’m in a generous mood.
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Lucky for me you're not in a lynching mood, right?

A complex financial system employs people to run it, these are traditionally called bankers.
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No, you're referring to the typical state-run financial system. I'm talking about decentralized money, where there are no bankers, and where the users of the money aren't systematically robbed as the currency is intentionally devalued by the government.

And btw, Rand shared your view, not mine, with respect to government ownership/control over the means of production regarding money.
 
aociswundumho said:
No, you're referring to the typical state-run financial system. I'm talking about decentralized money, where there are no bankers, and where the users of the money aren't systematically robbed as the currency is intentionally devalued by the government.

And btw, Rand shared your view, not mine, with respect to government ownership/control over the means of production regarding money.
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This is pure fantasy like your belief that public education and healthcare will disappear. Like it or not, vital elements of society are run by government. There is nothing to suggest that will change and you certainly have not demonstrated why it will or how is should. Perhaps you’re right about Rand but if your beliefs are even more extreme than the poster child for libertarian fairy tales then that should cause you disquiet.

aociswundumho said:
Lucky for me you're not in a lynching mood, right?
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That’s pretty funny to be fair.
 
soylentgreen said:
So what? They are a far cry from the idiot version of communism that is all that americans know of.

You are not getting anywhere pointing to a harmless minority group.
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“Harmless”

Considering that they defend North Korea......”harmless” isn’t the word which applies.

“Moronic” fits much better.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
So, since there are "plenty of nutcases" running around in the United States of America who think that Adolf Hitler (and his Nazi Party) constituted a "Good Thing" that must mean that ALL Americans think that Adolf Hitler (and his Nazi Party) constituted a "Good Thing" - right?
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All members of the American Nazi Party are nutcases.

And considering that he claimed that New Zealand did not, in fact, have a communist party, pointing out that said nutcases do, in fact, exist is perfectly relevant.
 
Tigerace117 said:
All members of the American Nazi Party are nutcases.
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Now you are boasting. You don't have to be a member of the AMERICAN Nazi Party to be a nutcase.

Tigerace117 said:
And considering that he claimed that New Zealand did not, in fact, have a communist party, pointing out that said nutcases do, in fact, exist is perfectly relevant.
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While it is correct to say "New Zealand DID have a Communist party." it is not correct to say that "New Zealand DOES have a Communist Party.".

When it was correct to say "New Zealand DOES have a Communist Party." it was still NOT correct to say "New Zealand DOES have a Communist Party that is of any importance whatsoever.".

The "Communist Party" in New Zealand ceased to exist (as an official body) in 1994. The "Communist League" is NOT a registered political party in New Zealand even though it has been in existence since 1969 (and it has never elected anyone to any office at all [nor, for that matter, did the "Communist Party" before it]).

The "Communist Party" is banned by law in the United States of America (regardless of what the First Amendment says). However the "Party for Socialism and Liberation" (which openly claims to be Communist) received 74,392 votes for its presidential candidate in 2016 and the "Socialist Workers Party" (which openly claims to be Communist) received 12,467 votes for its presidential candidate in 2016, and the "Workers World Party" (which openly claims to be Communist) received 4,314 votes for its presidential candidate in 2016 (and, not only that, but the TROTSKYITE "Socialist Equality Party" received votes for its presidential candidate in 2016).

If it were even remotely possible for it to be true, I would be tempted to say "The Communist Party in New Zealand is even LESS politically important than the Communist Party in the United States of America.", but it isn't so I won't.

If you REALLY want to start worrying about "Commies Under The Bed", then you should be very afraid of Canada which actually elected people who actually ran as actual candidates for an actual Communist Party to its national government.
 
Tigerace117 said:
“Harmless”

Considering that they defend North Korea......”harmless” isn’t the word which applies.

“Moronic” fits much better.
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For your opinion perhaps.

Point out where they defend north korea.

Where as i can point out that the communist party in new zealand has no influence atall. And your own american cia backs me.
The CIA sizes up New Zealand: ‘Racial Tensions’, ‘Communist Influence’ and more | The Spinoff
Breathe easy: the CIA determines that the NZ Communist Party influence is modest and on the wane, with nil penetration in the ruling Labour Party and limited presence within the trade union movement – oh, and “New Zealanders have shown a notable lack of interest in Russian cultural exhibits”.
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Again, laughing at your pathetic attempt.

And yes, considering what passes for a communist party does not even get a listing on elections, which means no one votes for them then i am correct in saying we do not have a political communist party.
 
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soylentgreen said:
For your opinion perhaps.

Point out where they defend north korea.

Where as i can point out that the communist party in new zealand has no influence atall. And your own american cia backs me.
The CIA sizes up New Zealand: ‘Racial Tensions’, ‘Communist Influence’ and more | The Spinoff


Again, laughing at your pathetic attempt
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“In international relations it supports a policy of nonalignment, rejecting New Zealand's membership as a NATO Global Partner and the Five Eyes. The NCPA supports the governments of China, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos and North Korea against US/NATO imperialist aggression.[3]”

As I said before........

Why should anyone care what people who thought Enver Hoxha was a good man to support say?
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Now you are boasting. You don't have to be a member of the AMERICAN Nazi Party to be a nutcase.



While it is correct to say "New Zealand DID have a Communist party." it is not correct to say that "New Zealand DOES have a Communist Party.".

When it was correct to say "New Zealand DOES have a Communist Party." it was still NOT correct to say "New Zealand DOES have a Communist Party that is of any importance whatsoever.".

The "Communist Party" in New Zealand ceased to exist (as an official body) in 1994. The "Communist League" is NOT a registered political party in New Zealand even though it has been in existence since 1969 (and it has never elected anyone to any office at all [nor, for that matter, did the "Communist Party" before it]).

The "Communist Party" is banned by law in the United States of America (regardless of what the First Amendment says). However the "Party for Socialism and Liberation" (which openly claims to be Communist) received 74,392 votes for its presidential candidate in 2016 and the "Socialist Workers Party" (which openly claims to be Communist) received 12,467 votes for its presidential candidate in 2016, and the "Workers World Party" (which openly claims to be Communist) received 4,314 votes for its presidential candidate in 2016 (and, not only that, but the TROTSKYITE "Socialist Equality Party" received votes for its presidential candidate in 2016).

If it were even remotely possible for it to be true, I would be tempted to say "The Communist Party in New Zealand is even LESS politically important than the Communist Party in the United States of America.", but it isn't so I won't.

If you REALLY want to start worrying about "Commies Under The Bed", then you should be very afraid of Canada which actually elected people who actually ran as actual candidates for an actual Communist Party to its national government.
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Again, “not politically relevant” is not the same as “nonexistent”....and considering that you only really need one die hard with lots of weaponry to conduct a devastating terrorist attack, as New Zealand found out not too long ago, your grasping at straws is entirely besides the point.
 
Tigerace117 said:
“In international relations it supports a policy of nonalignment, rejecting New Zealand's membership as a NATO Global Partner and the Five Eyes. The NCPA supports the governments of China, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos and North Korea against US/NATO imperialist aggression.[3]”

As I said before........

Why should anyone care what people who thought Enver Hoxha was a good man to support say?
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And again i really need to ask why this is at all relevant? They are a small minority group of no concern to anyone .

This is more a case of why should anyone care what you have to say about it.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Again, “not politically relevant” is not the same as “nonexistent”....and considering that you only really need one die hard with lots of weaponry to conduct a devastating terrorist attack, as New Zealand found out not too long ago, your grasping at straws is entirely besides the point.
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How laughable. Can you find me even one bit of evidence to suggest that the nz communist party is in any way associated to terrorism. It really is you who is grasping for straws byliking terrorism to this.
 
Tigerace117 said:
“In international relations it supports a policy of nonalignment, rejecting New Zealand's membership as a NATO Global Partner and the Five Eyes. The NCPA supports the governments of China, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos and North Korea against US/NATO imperialist aggression.[3]”

As I said before........

Why should anyone care what people who thought Enver Hoxha was a good man to support say?
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Enver Hoxha died in 1985. The NCPA was formed in November of 2019. The NCPA has NEVER "thought Enver Hoxha was a good man to support" as you claim. In fact, if the demographics of the NCPA match the demographics of the CPC(M-L) less than 10% of the members of the NCPA were even alive before Enver Hoxha died.

Might I suggest that you actually read "Towards a Socialist Aotearoa: Programme of the New Communist Party of Aotearoa"?

I have and a bunch of more juvenile, jargon laced, label-bound, self-serving, vacuous, "Humpty-Dumptyesque", cant and pap, sloganeering with less semantic content you would be hard pressed to find - unless you want to read stuff like

We have to change our current warfare-State economic paradigm for a welfare-State economic paradigm for the multiplier effect. Capital should do the heavy lifting under capitalism in modern times. One way to do that is through the Order of equal protection of the laws under our Constitutional forms of Government. Unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed in our at-will employment States can ensure this. More effective general taxes should be able to generate sufficient revenue.
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TU Curmudgeon said:
Enver Hoxha died in 1985. The NCPA was formed in November of 2019. The NCPA has NEVER "thought Enver Hoxha was a good man to support" as you claim. In fact, if the demographics of the NCPA match the demographics of the CPC(M-L) less than 10% of the members of the NCPA were even alive before Enver Hoxha died.

Might I suggest that you actually read "Towards a Socialist Aotearoa: Programme of the New Communist Party of Aotearoa"?

I have and a bunch of more juvenile, jargon laced, label-bound, self-serving, vacuous, "Humpty-Dumptyesque", cant and pap, sloganeering with less semantic content you would be hard pressed to find - unless you want to read stuff like


​
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Reading that was like time travelling back to the 1970's. I now know why the communist party in nz has zero rating in any of our elections. They are so far behind the times.

There are quite a few things in there i can agree with but not in, as you say, the sloganeering propaganda way they are doing it. A few of their ideas have been implemented into the workforce of nz already.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
If anyone was able to construct a "Pure Communism" society then it would be very difficult to tell the difference between the way that it functioned and the way a "Pure Christian" society functioned (setting aside the question of religion).

At the core, Marx had concluded that "religion" was a necessary feature of a non-communist society as it provided the "opium" that enabled the vast masses to cope with the inequalities and iniquities of the "capitalist (and monarchical)" society that was the then current modal form of social organization. The "actual role" of religion, as Marx saw it was to enable the existing system (and all of the ills that he perceived it to have) to be perpetuated.
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Marx' idea was an impossibility and an absurdity. The idea that the state would "wither away" is ludicrous. You cannot have a functioning society without some sort of governmental structure and if one doesn't exist, somebody will fill that vacuum. Far from withering away, anytime communism is tried, the state becomes all powerful and tyrannical.
 
soylentgreen said:
How laughable. Can you find me even one bit of evidence to suggest that the nz communist party is in any way associated to terrorism. It really is you who is grasping for straws byliking terrorism to this.
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Are you incapable of basic reading comprehension? I stated that claiming a political party to be irrelevant is unimportant because it only takes one die hard to conduct a devastating attack. Perhaps if you weren’t so busy blithering about how Americans oppose an ideology which has killed millions upon millions of innocent people you’d know that
 
soylentgreen said:
And again i really need to ask why this is at all relevant? They are a small minority group of no concern to anyone .

This is more a case of why should anyone care what you have to say about it.
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Why should any Americans care about New Zealanders throwing a tantrum about how we oppose communism?
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Enver Hoxha died in 1985. The NCPA was formed in November of 2019. The NCPA has NEVER "thought Enver Hoxha was a good man to support" as you claim. In fact, if the demographics of the NCPA match the demographics of the CPC(M-L) less than 10% of the members of the NCPA were even alive before Enver Hoxha died.

Might I suggest that you actually read "Towards a Socialist Aotearoa: Programme of the New Communist Party of Aotearoa"?

I have and a bunch of more juvenile, jargon laced, label-bound, self-serving, vacuous, "Humpty-Dumptyesque", cant and pap, sloganeering with less semantic content you would be hard pressed to find - unless you want to read stuff like


​
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The previous New Zealand communist party, of which the current morons are the successors of, certainly did support Hoxha......as stated previously.

The current morons “only” support regimes like North Korea against “US imperialism”.....which is every bit as idiotic.
 
veritas1 said:
Marx' idea was an impossibility and an absurdity. The idea that the state would "wither away" is ludicrous. You cannot have a functioning society without some sort of governmental structure and if one doesn't exist, somebody will fill that vacuum. Far from withering away, anytime communism is tried, the state becomes all powerful and tyrannical.
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Communist revolutions MUST result in tyranny. Because they demand perfect social harmony and cooperation, so everyone must be in agreement.

Very soon after the Communist victory in Russia, there were factions who disagreed with each other. Marxist ideology is so vague and impractical, it can be interpreted in very different ways. So the attempt to get everyone on the same page caused violence from the beginning.

Then, of course, trying to convince everyone to sacrifice their wealth and property for the good of the "people" turned out to be harder than expected. Requiring violence and imprisonment, of course.

The USSR government had to rule forcefully, to keep all citizens in line with their lovingly harmonious ideology. Not everyone was capable of understanding Marx's "brilliant" ideas, so propaganda and brainwashing were necessary, to get everyone up to speed on how marvelous the workers' paradise was going to be.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Are you incapable of basic reading comprehension? I stated that claiming a political party to be irrelevant is unimportant because it only takes one die hard to conduct a devastating attack. Perhaps if you weren’t so busy blithering about how Americans oppose an ideology which has killed millions upon millions of innocent people you’d know that
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No, i understood what you said. Laughed at it, and did say you need to demonstrate that the nz communist party has some connection to terrorism before spreading idiot suggestions like that.

Otherwise it is just a childish scare tactic on your part that only demonstrates your immaturity.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Why should any Americans care about New Zealanders throwing a tantrum about how we oppose communism?
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I have no idea. Getting ignored after pointing out the mindless propaganda that americans speak about communism is the usual reaction. Understandable that, because when i ask someone to back up the lie he has just made about communism the usual reaction from them is to run and hide because they cannot back up their lie.
 
Tigerace117 said:
The previous New Zealand communist party, of which the current morons are the successors of, certainly did support Hoxha......as stated previously.

The current morons “only” support regimes like North Korea against “US imperialism”.....which is every bit as idiotic.
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Cherry picker. Take one part and keep repeating it. That is all you are doing.

Of course it would make you look foolish if you started pointing out that the nz communist party for all practical purpose does not exist outside a small and pointless minority. So you keep repeating your cherry picked point and pretend it has some kind of relevance. A relevance you have yet to say what it is.
 
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