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Nate Silver now givers Bernie a round 0% chance; time to drop out

COTO said:
I'm not claiming you have to support his every policy... or any policy at all.

The ethical question at hand is: For a politician who believes his values/policies are distinct from--and superior to--those of a competitor, should this politician a) fight long and hard to the bitter end to emphasize the superiority of his own values/policies, or b) bow to the political reality, accept defeat, and fall into line behind the competitor to defeat a third competitor whose values/policies differ even more markedly?

In this thread I'm not saying that (a) is definitely better or that (b) is definitely better. Everyone has their own conclusion. But for those who conclude (b) is the better option, they forfeit the right to criticize their opponents who also conclude (b) in the better option. Specifically, Democrats who believe Sen. Sanders should fall into line behind Mr. Biden for sake of putting a Democrat in the White House forfeit the right to criticize the GOP for falling into line behind Pres. Trump for sake of keeping a Republican in the White House.

If you judge that winning to get/keep the "good guys" in and get/keep the "bad guys" out is more important than standing on principle, own this judgment even when it pertains to parties you don't support.
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I might agree with you if the Trump problem didn't go way beyond just his policies and the GOP falling into line behind him.

Falling into line is one thing. Refusing to exercise their constitutional obligation of providing checks and balances to the Executive is a whole different matter. Falling into line behind a candidate is fine... but becoming a mere rubber stamp for that candidate when he becomes the president is significantly more upsetting.
 
Craig234 said:
** lie ** - egregious enough with the intentional repetition that I'm not reading your posts indefinitely.
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<sigh> well, I do my best to carry on without your attention.
 
GreatNews2night said:
I might agree with you if the Trump problem didn't go way beyond just his policies and the GOP falling into line behind him.

Falling into line is one thing. Refusing to exercise their constitutional obligation of providing checks and balances to the Executive is a whole different matter. Falling into line behind a candidate is fine... but becoming a mere rubber stamp for that candidate when he becomes the president is significantly more upsetting.
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From where I'm sitting, your two-party system in America is a far bigger liability and hazard to proper democratic function than any circling of wagons the GOP has done in the past four years. Or, for that matter, the circling of wagons the Democrats did for eight years before that.

I'd even go so far as to say that until you get a viable third party, yours isn't even a functional republic. The GOP's falling in line behind Pres. Trump and the loud demands for Sen. Sanders to fall in behind Mr. Biden are both symptoms of this greater problem.
 
Joe Biden won every county in Michigan except for 1.

Joe Biden is currently winning in Washington state.

Bernie and his ideas lost to Hillary in 2016.

Bernie and his ideas will lose even more to Joe Biden in 2020. It's time to put Bernie and his ideas aside and get behind a candidate who can win.
 
COTO said:
From where I'm sitting, your two-party system in America is a far bigger liability and hazard to proper democratic function than any circling of wagons the GOP has done in the past four years. Or, for that matter, the circling of wagons the Democrats did for eight years before that.

I'd even go so far as to say that until you get a viable third party, yours isn't even a functional republic. The GOP's falling in line behind Pres. Trump and the loud demands for Sen. Sanders to fall in behind Mr. Biden are both symptoms of this greater problem.
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I would love for us to have a true multi-party system, or even better, a parliamentary system (which I know will never pass here, unfortunately).

But these are ideas for the future. Now what is important, in terms of first priority, is to kick the Trump Crime Family out of the White House.
 
Airyaman said:
Why should the Democratic Party care about an ineffectual independent who claims to be a Democrat every four years because he's too lazy to run on an independent ticket?
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You mean because the only route to political power in practice is via one of the two parties, and running as a spoiler independent on a separate ticket would guarantee the election of someone he despises?
 
Perotista said:
I wonder if the Michigan exit polls are an indication nationwide. To the question, Will you vote for the Democratic nominee in the presidential election this November regardless of who it is? Only 41% of Sanders voters said yes, 52% said no.

Michigan Polls: Who Different Groups Supported - The New York Times

I'm not surprised by that. Biden won those who identify themselves a democrats 58-38 over Sanders. Sanders won the independent lean Democrat vote which doesn't identify themselves as Democrats, but as independents 50-43. Numbers that indicate quite a lot Sanders voters are for the man only and do not care who wins in November.
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They probably are. So many Democrats keep forgetting (or refusing to acknowledge) this extremely important and salient fact in favour of what they would prefer to be true, even though the 2016 primary has already proven it clear as day: primaries are not general elections.
 
Surrealistik said:
You mean because the only route to political power in practice is via one of the two parties, and running as a spoiler independent on a separate ticket would guarantee the election of someone he despises?
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Then he should stay in the Democratic party instead of taking advantage of the organization when he wants to run for president.
 
Airyaman said:
Then he should stay in the Democratic party instead of taking advantage of the organization when he wants to run for president.
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I probably don't disagree on the whole, but I can see why he does it, both because retaining his independence is of appeal in the general (which he would need to get to first, yes), and because the party brass generally doesn't like him, mostly for reasons of policy and the friction he creates with major party donors.
 
NWRatCon said:
Interestingly, my wife and I had this very discussion yesterday. Nominations are, by and large, within the authority of the party. Each party gets to determine how to designate its nominee. None of the other candidates has actually "dropped out", but have "suspended" their campaigns (keeping their powder dry). If before the conventions, the conventions will determine their nominee. If after the conventions, the parties will determine a different process.

The complication is the general election procedures in each State. In reality, the votes cast are for delegates to the electoral college. So, the next step would be the Electoral College vote (12th Amendment). If that were indecisive, it would go to the House of Representatives. From there it would go to the Supreme Court, and thence to a civil war, or more likely, a simple insurrection
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The criminal syndicate of the two party system holds our alleged democratic system hostage.
 
Craig234 said:
** lie ** - egregious enough with the intentional repetition that I'm not reading your posts indefinitely.
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Now, now - Biden Boys gotta Biden Boy.

At least Biden's merely demented rather than sociopathic like Hillary & her bots.

:thumbs:
 
Craig234 said:
Me too pretty much. So what? So Joe wins, Bernie comes in second, advocating for his policies, increasing his supporters, winning some more states, gaining more delegates. And?
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Sanders needs to stop NOW.

Before Biden has an on-camera crack-up.

Another one, that is.

:thumbs:
 
Surrealistik said:
the party brass generally doesn't like him, mostly for reasons of policy and the friction he creates with major party donors.
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It's not a personality issue. He opposes corruption (big donors being able to set the party policy against the public interest where it benefits them). They serve it. Bernie wants donors served, they want donors served first, and voters second.
 
Surrealistik said:
You mean because the only route to political power in practice is via one of the two parties, and running as a spoiler independent on a separate ticket would guarantee the election of someone he despises?
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They don't care about the truth on that - just sniping at Bernie and his half of the party.
 
Craig234 said:
Couple things. A frickin THIRD of Biden voters said "no". Both numbers are very alarming.

For Bernie supporters, let's remember some things. Virtually all his progressive supporters voted for Hillary in 2016 (unlike her supporters in 2008). Bernie has said loudly he supports the nominee whoever it is.

But your point is a valid concern (just for both candidates, while you only mention one). For Bernie's side, perhaps they were thinking of candidates like Bloomberg - that if he had gotten the nomination, they wouldn't necessarily support him. Who knows, but there's work to do on unity. Moments after they voted might not be the best time for unity. It should improve by November.

First of all, I'm not surprised by your lack of surprise. Bernie derangement a bit does that. Second, yes, four years ago I said Bernie's biggest obstacle would be Democratic voters; they are all too loyal to 'the party establishment'. Finally, it's not that they're for 'Bernie the man only', it's that they're for his POLICIES, and against the policies of 'do what the big donors say'.
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People shouldn't be loyal to parties that lie to them and steal from them and harm them???

But my (important adults in my life) were (benighted voters for one major criminal party or the other), and I WILL blindly follow that tradition!

Off a cliff if need be!

:donkeyfla :shock: :elephantf
 
Winston said:
Great analysis of the numbers and demographics. I try to tell partisan Dems of Bernie's strength with Independents they don't wanna hear it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Criminal party above country!!!

:donkeyfla :doh :elephantf
 
COTO said:
From where I'm sitting, your two-party system in America is a far bigger liability and hazard to proper democratic function than any circling of wagons the GOP has done in the past four years. Or, for that matter, the circling of wagons the Democrats did for eight years before that.

I'd even go so far as to say that until you get a viable third party, yours isn't even a functional republic. The GOP's falling in line behind Pres. Trump and the loud demands for Sen. Sanders to fall in behind Mr. Biden are both symptoms of this greater problem.
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Mic.

Drop.

:thumbs:
 
Airyaman said:
Then he should stay in the Democratic party instead of taking advantage of the organization when he wants to run for president.
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Blood in, Blood out.

Imma right?

:donkeyfla
 
trixare4kids said:
Bernie will do what he wants and should be able to do exactly what he wants. The Democratic Party doesn't care about him so why should he sing to their tune and be at their beck and call?
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And he doesn't care about the Dem party so why should they be at his beck and call?
 
VanceMack said:
Bernie sees what everyone see's. Biden is a coughing fit away from a mental collapse. IF Bernie puts pressure on Biden to win this thing, Biden is likely to collapse physically and mentally. Then what do you do? Do you demand Bernie step aside for another candidate of the DNCs choosing?
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Bernie is a walking heart attack waiting to happen. Biden is fit. Biden is not likely to collapse. He is aging but we ALL are.
 
hermit said:
And he doesn't care about the Dem party so why should they be at his beck and call?
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The Democrat Party should definitely remain at the beck & call of the plutocracy!!!

Imma right?

(More) Power To The Plutocracy!!!

I WILL vote against my own best interests!!!!

AGAIN!!!!

:donkeyfla
 
Surrealistik said:
You mean because the only route to political power in practice is via one of the two parties, and running as a spoiler independent on a separate ticket would guarantee the election of someone he despises?
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Why does Bernie think he has to run at all? He lost to Hillary for crying out loud. And he thinks he can beat Trump who beat loser Hillary? I wish Bernie would go away.
 
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