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Thread: I can finally agree with AOC - she will support Biden if he's the nominee

  1. #11
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    Re: I can finally agree with AOC - she will support Biden if he's the nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I never really grasped until this election that Sanders was a populist. It’s a relatively new concept for me, and only after the 2016 election did I get it. The disparity in success in promoting populist themes is in our country’s history. Republicans have been primed for populism for forty years since the start of the culture wars. But for Democrats, populism is a relatively niche idea (at least when compared to Republicans). Compared to Republicans, Democrats knew that the system needed to improve, but accepted the system overall nonetheless. This may seem like a mundane point until you remember that Republicans’ anger with the system is so great that they decided not merely to overturn the system, but to burn democracy itself to the ground. Simply put, the populism within the Democratic Party just doesn’t match that level of anger...not even close...and it’s why Bernie’s populism is likely to fail.
    Oh, Sanders has always been a populist. When I was more toxic against him (later, influenced by others including by you, I toned it down), I used to call him the Trump of the Left, exactly because he also campaigns on populist promises, and similarly to Trump's, often these promises are things that can't be accomplished. Just as much as Mexico is not paying for that wall, free healthcare for illegal aliens is not going to survive in Congress, but neither impossibility made these candidates refrain from pandering to specific classes of voters by making those promises. That's exactly the hallmark of a populist politician.

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    Re: I can finally agree with AOC - she will support Biden if he's the nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Oh, Sanders has always been a populist. When I was more toxic against him (later, influenced by others including by you, I toned it down), I used to call him the Trump of the Left, exactly because he also campaigns on populist promises, and similarly to Trump's, often these promises are things that can't be accomplished. Just as much as Mexico is not paying for that wall, free healthcare for illegal aliens is not going to survive in Congress, but neither impossibility made these candidates refrain from pandering to specific classes of voters by making those promises. That's exactly the hallmark of a populist politician.
    What’s confusing is that he hasn’t governed as a populist. As I’ve said before, he’s been in Vermont politics for forty years and he hasn’t once guillotined a billionaire or an “elitist” in the town square to entertain the peasants.

    If he’s the nominee I’ll obviously vote for him in November (because duh), but if he wants to be the nominee then he’s going to have to dial that **** down.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 03-06-20 at 02:23 PM.

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    Re: I can finally agree with AOC - she will support Biden if he's the nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Why do you think Trump has been so supportive of Bernie as a candidate....
    The same reason Hillary was supportive of trump as a candidate. Wrongly thinking he can beat him.

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    Re: I can finally agree with AOC - she will support Biden if he's the nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    True. Like I said elsewhere, I favor breaking down the two bigger parties into smaller entities that better represent an ideological chunk of the political spectrum, like in most other democracies in the world. I'd favor not only four parties (if both split into two) but actually 5 or 7. If 7, we'd have:

    Far left
    Left
    Center-left
    Center
    Center-right
    Right
    Far right

    People would be better represented, freer to promote their ideas, primaries campaigns wouldn't have to shift to an extreme and then shift back to closer to the center in the general election campaigns, and for people to get elected and to govern, current foul words like compromise and coalition would have to be resuscitated, doing away with the current paralysis that makes one party undo what the other previously did, and obstruct what the other one is trying to do.

    The problem is, who does it first?

    If the ultra-progressives in the Democratic Party - the squad of four - got together with Sanders and some other Congressmen/women to found the American Democratic Socialist Party or whatever they wanted to call it, but the GOP did not split in two as well, then the GOP would be the perennial winner of the next several elections, being united against a split front.

    Similarly, if the GOP were to split into a moderate, fiscal conservative/compassionate party on the center and center-right lane, and the far right people founded their own nativist, anti-immigration party, but the Dems did not split their party, then the Dems would be the perennial winners of the next several elections.

    Because both parties are terrified of being left out if they take the initiative, nobody does.

    I wish we found a way to make a grand bargain and simultaneously reform the party structure in the United States. Everybody would be happier and the political process would get moving a lot better.
    There are pathways to a multi-party system, but the party that initiates it (more likely the Democrats at this point) would have to do it in a way that the two factions wouldn't cancel each other out and throw elections to the remaining party. That's exactly what happened to the Republicans in 1912, who lost to the Democratic Woodrow Wilson who only got 42% of the popular vote compared to Roosevelt's + Taft's = 50%.

    The Republicans learned their lesson. They (sort of) unified behind Charles Hughes in 1916, who barely lost to incumbent Woodrow Wilson. Then Warren Harding won in a landslide in 1920. He wound up having his own problems, however...
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    Re: I can finally agree with AOC - she will support Biden if he's the nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    What’s confusing is that he hasn’t governed as a populist. As I’ve said before, he’s been in Vermont politics for forty years and he hasn’t once guillotined billionaires or “elitists” in the public square for the entertainment of the peasants.

    If he’s the nominee I’ll obviously vote for him in November (because duh, but if he wants to be the nominee then he’s going to have to dial that **** down.
    Even by populist standards that would be on the extreme end of the spectrum.

    A better example of a populist would be Louisiana governor Huey P. Long. Think Bernie Sanders mixed with Trump's anger and corruption problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by trixare4kids View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradoxical View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I don't support democracy. Never had. Never will.

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    Re: I can finally agree with AOC - she will support Biden if he's the nominee

    All third parties are good for is throwing the election to an opposition candidate.

    Perot ran third party and Bush the Elder lost.

    Nader ran third party and Gore lost.

    We'll never have more than 2 viable parties and that's for the good.

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    Re: I can finally agree with AOC - she will support Biden if he's the nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by swing_voter View Post
    All third parties are good for is throwing the election to an opposition candidate.

    Perot ran third party and Bush the Elder lost.

    Nader ran third party and Gore lost.

    We'll never have more than 2 viable parties and that's for the good.
    We might, if parties were to split simultaneously. If we had four about equal-sized parties, it wouldn't be the third party situation you are describing.

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    Re: I can finally agree with AOC - she will support Biden if he's the nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I voted for Bernie, but I can’t help noticing that he seems half the time to be more interested in attacking the Democratic Party as a whole than in beating Trump. This has shrunk his base and if he loses, that’ll be why.

    Attacking a “Deep State” boogeyman worked for Trump, but it’s unlikely to help Sanders.
    Bernie's not perfect but he is still right on the issues
    "The First Amendment protects Twitter from Trump. It does not protect Trump from Twitter." --Business Insider

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    Re: I can finally agree with AOC - she will support Biden if he's the nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarLevant View Post
    Bernie's not perfect but he is still right on the issues
    I agree, and that makes his need to constantly go after The Democratic Establishment stupid, unnecessary and harmful. This is a completely unforced error. All he has to do is just...stop doing that...and more people will come over to him.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 03-06-20 at 07:10 PM.

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    Re: I can finally agree with AOC - she will support Biden if he's the nominee

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I agree, and that makes his need to constantly go after The Democratic Establishment stupid, unnecessary and harmful. This is a completely unforced error. All he has to do is just...stop doing that...and more people will come over to him.
    Bernie:

    1. "I want you to support me and stop trying to stop me; I want to be the leader of your party and its banner carrier."
    2. "In order to accomplish that, I'll constantly berate you, accuse you, blame you, bash you, and whine about you."

    It doesn't seem like the best strategy to me.

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