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The evil of Cuba

No there is not. We should not treat with tyrannies that imprison, torture and murder political dissidents a stone's throw away from us, or any other tyranny for that matter.

Right. We should have declared war on Russia as well as Germany, Japan, and Italy in WWII, even if it meant the loss of the war. You sure have a lot of useful things to say.

Why do you care? And what would you have done about it? By your standards, any punishment upon Saudi Arabia hurts the people of Saudi Arabia and just harms us as much as it harms the Saudis.

What US residents is Cuba killing? Your argument is that your actual hypocrisy is justified by phony claims of other hypocrisy. The dishonesty is too much to keep bothering with.
 
No, as I said, it was you dishonestly posting a straw man. Your posts are lies.

ElementarySnivelingHanumanmonkey-small.gif
 
Right. We should have declared war on Russia as well as Germany, Japan, and Italy in WWII, even if it meant the loss of the war. You sure have a lot of useful things to say.

Or we can do as you apparently wish: Trade and have cordial relations with every country no matter what they do. Because to do otherwise would force the people living under the yoke of these regimes to suffer.

What US residents is Cuba killing? Your argument is that your actual hypocrisy is justified by phony claims of other hypocrisy. The dishonesty is too much to keep bothering with.

No, I am discussing matters of principle. Again, what would you have done against Saudi Arabia given the power?
 
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Or we can do as you apparently wish: Trade and have cordial relations with every country no matter what they do.

Quote where I said that, or admit you posted a lie.
 
It's rather pathetic, when you think about it, how we still base our relations with Cuba on, 'but what about what Castro did in 1961'. Imagine US negotiators going to discuss relations with a country, and being told, 'sorry, we just can't make a deal with you, because we disapprove of the 1954 Guatemalan coup and Reagan's actions in the Iran-Contra crimes'.

I bet nearly 100% of Americans know the name "Fidel Castro" with Cuba; how many know the current leader? 1%? For that matter, can you name the current leader of Mexico? And you have strong opinions on why it's a good idea to be at economic war with Cuba? That's rational?

Cuba would do a hell of a lot better if the US removed the sanctions imposed in a fit of pique because Castro dared to tell the US to **** off.
 
Cuba is a brutal dictatorship which has committed horrific human rights abuses against its own people on numerous occasions. They have been involved in multiple wars of aggression propping up other brutal regimes in Africa, most notably in Angola. JFK’s mistake vis a vis the Bay of Pigs was agreeing to it and not having the nerve to see it through; if he was going to allow the operation to go forwards at all he should have been willing to allow it to go all the way, instead of allowing the Cuban exiles to be slaughtered while he waffled.

A big part of why the Soviets agreed to pull nukes out of Cuba was that they thought Castro was nuts and would press to use them.

Wow, that sounds just like America! Human rights abuses, wars of aggression, supporting and financing brutal regimes and terrorist groups. Trust me mate, America has no high ground to preach morality from.
 
Cuba would do a hell of a lot better if the US removed the sanctions imposed in a fit of pique because Castro dared to tell the US to **** off.

Yup. The US would do better, too. Meanwhile, Europeans enjoy the tourism. It's interesting to note the history of adjusting sanctions; Carter and Obama lessening them, possibly Clinton also, while Reagan, Bush 43, and trump all increased them.
 
Yup. The US would do better, too. Meanwhile, Europeans enjoy the tourism. It's interesting to note the history of adjusting sanctions; Carter and Obama lessening them, possibly Clinton also, while Reagan, Bush 43, and trump all increased them.

Yes, and to what end? There is no logical, strategic or geo-political purpose in continuing to punish Cuba.
 
Yes, and to what end? There is no logical, strategic or geo-political purpose in continuing to punish Cuba.

And 'punish' almost isn't the right word for economic warfare. It's an irrational turning of 'do you support everything Cuba has done' into, 'no? Then we should have an act of war economic blockade on them, crippling the Cuban people's economy, to show we don't approve of everything their government does'. People don't think about how that makes no sense.
 
And 'punish' almost isn't the right word for economic warfare. It's an irrational turning of 'do you support everything Cuba has done' into, 'no? Then we should have an act of war economic blockade on them, crippling the Cuban people's economy, to show we don't approve of everything their government does'. People don't think about how that makes no sense.

No they don't; the depth of their analytical ability amounts to 'communism=evil=punish the people'.
 
Batista was a very corrupt dictator, with US support; the mob had a large presence in the country. The people were greatly dissatisfied with the government, and supported its overthrow.

Castro led a remarkable revolution, that overthrew the government. Reportedly, he had approached the US, then with Nixon handling Cuban issues after Eisenhower's stroke, wanting to have a good relationship as a socialist country, and Nixon refused, leading Castro to ally with the USSR as a communist.

Castro created a strong authoritarian government and communist system. It failed pretty badly, with things like low crop yields, dependent on Soviet subsidies. GDP per capita plummeted. He also did some good things - greatly increasing literacy and training doctors. As Wikipedia notes:

"Before 1959 the literacy rate for Cuba was approximately 77%, as noted by UNESCO. This was the 4th highest rate in Latin America. The Cuban government of Fidel Castro at Che Guevara’s behest dubbed 1961 the "year of education" and sent "literacy brigades" out into the countryside to construct schools, train new educators, and teach the predominantly illiterate guajiros (peasants) to read and write. The campaign was "a remarkable success” although some participants recalled it as an indoctrination program to support the party. By its completion, 707,212 adults were taught to read and write, raising the national literacy rate to 96%."

US politics at the time were the height of the cold war. Gallup polls showed the American people said Cuba was the #1 threat in the world. Politics demanded the government oppose Castro. Nixon tried and failed to launch a US invasion under cover of Cuban exiles before the 1960 election, and failed; JFK inherited plan expanded by the CIA that had been overthrowing so many government, which misled him into supporting it, despite his prohibition on US military involvement, and it became the disastrous Bay of Pigs, which led to end of Allen Dulles' career leading the CIA's plots, for what RFK called 'virtually treason' against JFK in the operation. JFK instead initiated a complete economic boycott in place to this day.

Yet JFK did not plan a long boycott; he was interested in ending the conflict, either by the overthrow of Castro, or by negotiating an agreement with him. His private representative was secretly meeting with Castro to begin negotiations to end the conflict.

Back to the evil of Cuba. The US does not want to copy the system of Cuba. It's poorer, and heavily state controlled, owning most industry and employing most Cubans. That doesn't mean the US shouldn't and doesn't want to have some more government-run systems; we already have such things as public water systems, public libraries, public education, public power in some areas such as the TVA, and many more.

Popular areas for expansion include things like ending the very poor privatized prison industry, avoiding privately owned highways, not going too far in private education (there has been a high rate of problems with for-profit 'colleges'), and Medicare for All. Back to Cuba, Wikipedia:

"The government of Cuba owns and operates most industries and most of the labor force is employed by the state. Following the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, the ruling Communist Party of Cuba encouraged the formation of worker co-operatives and self-employment. However, greater private property and free market rights were granted by the 2019 Cuba Constitution. It has also been acknowledged that foreign market investment in various Cuban economic sectors increased before 2019 as well.

As of 2000, public-sector employment was 76% and private-sector employment (mainly composed of self-employment) was 23% - compared to the 1981 ratio of 91% to 8%. Investment is restricted and requires approval by the government. The government sets most prices and rations goods to citizens. In 2016 Cuba ranked 68th out of 182 countries, with a Human Development Index of 0.775, much higher than its GDP per capita rank (95th). As of 2012, the country's public debt comprised 35.3% of GDP, inflation (CDP) was 5.5%, and GDP growth was 3%.

Housing and transportation costs are low. Cubans receive government-subsidized education, healthcare and food subsidies."

About that 'Human Development Index'. It ranks Cuba 30th of 176 nations in life expectancy; second in literacy with 99.8%; sixth in primary school enrollment; 17th of 135 in the 'human poverty index' (lower is better).

Cuba has essentially no homelessness; reportedly, homelessness is illegal; if a person is homeless, the government provides them housing (the US has an estimated 500,000 homeless).

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If Cuba is so great, why do so many Cuban's risk their lives trying to get here?

And yes, that is even with our homeless problem
 
No they don't; the depth of their analytical ability amounts to 'communism=evil=punish the people'.

'The Cuban people are wrongly abused by a bad government, so we'll hurt them a lot more with the embargo to show how we care about them'. The 'rational' purpose for the embargo would be either, 'drive the government out', or 'weaken the entire country to prevent its harming others', none of which fits the situation. That argument would more justify an embargo against the US for our harms.
 
'The Cuban people are wrongly abused by a bad government, so we'll hurt them a lot more with the embargo to show how we care about them'. The 'rational' purpose for the embargo would be either, 'drive the government out', or 'weaken the entire country to prevent its harming others', none of which fits the situation. That argument would more justify an embargo against the US for our harms.

Indeed, and when certain folk start preaching about their pristine and morally flawless America, I'm always happy to disabuse them of the fantasy.
 
Cuba would do a hell of a lot better if the US removed the sanctions imposed in a fit of pique because Castro dared to tell the US to **** off.

Why should we give a **** about Cuba?
 
Indeed, and when certain folk start preaching about their pristine and morally flawless America, I'm always happy to disabuse them of the fantasy.

Which they confuse with 'hating America', when its their lack of values and interest in America being a better country that is really the betrayal of the country and morals.
 
The business/corporate and leisure/travel relationship the USofA has with Cuba should be absolutely no different than the relationships we have with China, Saudi Arabia, Turkey,Mexico.....

Unless of course we enjoy being massive hypocrites.
 
Wow, that sounds just like America! Human rights abuses, wars of aggression, supporting and financing brutal regimes and terrorist groups. Trust me mate, America has no high ground to preach morality from.

Except the US doesn't toss random civilians into prison camps and then summarily execute them for criticizing our dictator. We also don't provide advisors to terrorist groups across the New World, prop up dictators who are literally starving their people into submission, or get nuclear missiles pulled out of our country in large part because our superpower patron thought we would try and use them. Other than that, we are exactly like the Cuban dictatorship :roll:

Funny how every time people criticize a left wing dictatorship or terrorist group folks constantly and desperately grasp at straws to defend them.
 
Except the US doesn't toss random civilians into prison camps and then summarily execute them for criticizing our dictator. We also don't provide advisors to terrorist groups across the New World, prop up dictators who are literally starving their people into submission, or get nuclear missiles pulled out of our country in large part because our superpower patron thought we would try and use them. Other than that, we are exactly like the Cuban dictatorship :roll:

Funny how every time people criticize a left wing dictatorship or terrorist group folks constantly and desperately grasp at straws to defend them.

The US doesn't prop up dictators? Are you kidding me? Does the name Galtieri resonate with you, for example, or Pinochet, or the Shah of Iran? You fund terrorists; the Contra, numerous Latin American terror organisations, your CIA torture prisons (conveniently offshore so you can wash your hands of responsibility) are still extant. So please, don't try moralising with me. Oh, and before I sign off, there's the small detail of US support for Pol Pot, the worst perpetrator of genocide since Hitler-you even went so far as to offer the Khmer Rouge a seat at the UN! But America is squeaky clean, right?

Nixon and the Cambodian Genocide
 
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The US doesn't prop up dictators? Are you kidding me? Does the name Galtieri resonate with you, for example, or Pinochet, or the Shah of Iran? You fund terrorists; the Contra, numerous Latin American terror organisations, your CIA torture prisons (conveniently offshore so you can wash your hands of responsibility) are still extant. So please, don't try moralising with me. Oh, and before I sign off, there's the small detail of US support for Pol Pot, the worst perpetrator of genocide since Hitler-you even went so far as to offer the Khmer Rouge a seat at the UN! But America is squeaky clean, right?

Nixon and the Cambodian Genocide

The US actively bombed the Khmer Rouge for years..... much to the outage of the left in America and Western Europe. By the way, Jacobin is not a credible source.

Please list the dictatorships which have American “advisors” actively propping them up, helping them arm terrorist groups like FARC and helping them crack skulls on the streets. I’ll wait.

The Contras haven’t been around for decades, and “torturing” ISIS fighters is a lot different than chopping a random civilian up for criticizing Castro.

But I get it— Cuba is a left wing dictatorship, so no straw, no matter how thin, is too small to grasp at to defend them.
 
The US actively bombed the Khmer Rouge for years..... much to the outage of the left in America and Western Europe. By the way, Jacobin is not a credible source.

Please list the dictatorships which have American “advisors” actively propping them up, helping them arm terrorist groups like FARC and helping them crack skulls on the streets. I’ll wait.

The Contras haven’t been around for decades, and “torturing” ISIS fighters is a lot different than chopping a random civilian up for criticizing Castro.

But I get it— Cuba is a left wing dictatorship, so no straw, no matter how thin, is too small to grasp at to defend them.

You've had the facts provided, with links. Use them. And no, you don't "get it" at all. 'My country, right or wrong', is what I'm reading. Read this:

Khmer Rouge jailer says U.S. contributed to Pol Pot rise - Reuters
 
Batista was a very corrupt dictator, with US support; the mob had a large presence in the country. The people were greatly dissatisfied with the government, and supported its overthrow.

Castro led a remarkable revolution, that overthrew the government. Reportedly, he had approached the US, then with Nixon handling Cuban issues after Eisenhower's stroke, wanting to have a good relationship as a socialist country, and Nixon refused, leading Castro to ally with the USSR as a communist.

Castro created a strong authoritarian government and communist system. It failed pretty badly, with things like low crop yields, dependent on Soviet subsidies. GDP per capita plummeted. He also did some good things - greatly increasing literacy and training doctors. As Wikipedia notes:

"Before 1959 the literacy rate for Cuba was approximately 77%, as noted by UNESCO. This was the 4th highest rate in Latin America. The Cuban government of Fidel Castro at Che Guevara’s behest dubbed 1961 the "year of education" and sent "literacy brigades" out into the countryside to construct schools, train new educators, and teach the predominantly illiterate guajiros (peasants) to read and write. The campaign was "a remarkable success” although some participants recalled it as an indoctrination program to support the party. By its completion, 707,212 adults were taught to read and write, raising the national literacy rate to 96%."

US politics at the time were the height of the cold war. Gallup polls showed the American people said Cuba was the #1 threat in the world. Politics demanded the government oppose Castro. Nixon tried and failed to launch a US invasion under cover of Cuban exiles before the 1960 election, and failed; JFK inherited plan expanded by the CIA that had been overthrowing so many government, which misled him into supporting it, despite his prohibition on US military involvement, and it became the disastrous Bay of Pigs, which led to end of Allen Dulles' career leading the CIA's plots, for what RFK called 'virtually treason' against JFK in the operation. JFK instead initiated a complete economic boycott in place to this day.

Yet JFK did not plan a long boycott; he was interested in ending the conflict, either by the overthrow of Castro, or by negotiating an agreement with him. His private representative was secretly meeting with Castro to begin negotiations to end the conflict.

Back to the evil of Cuba. The US does not want to copy the system of Cuba. It's poorer, and heavily state controlled, owning most industry and employing most Cubans. That doesn't mean the US shouldn't and doesn't want to have some more government-run systems; we already have such things as public water systems, public libraries, public education, public power in some areas such as the TVA, and many more.

Popular areas for expansion include things like ending the very poor privatized prison industry, avoiding privately owned highways, not going too far in private education (there has been a high rate of problems with for-profit 'colleges'), and Medicare for All. Back to Cuba, Wikipedia:

"The government of Cuba owns and operates most industries and most of the labor force is employed by the state. Following the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, the ruling Communist Party of Cuba encouraged the formation of worker co-operatives and self-employment. However, greater private property and free market rights were granted by the 2019 Cuba Constitution. It has also been acknowledged that foreign market investment in various Cuban economic sectors increased before 2019 as well.

As of 2000, public-sector employment was 76% and private-sector employment (mainly composed of self-employment) was 23% - compared to the 1981 ratio of 91% to 8%. Investment is restricted and requires approval by the government. The government sets most prices and rations goods to citizens. In 2016 Cuba ranked 68th out of 182 countries, with a Human Development Index of 0.775, much higher than its GDP per capita rank (95th). As of 2012, the country's public debt comprised 35.3% of GDP, inflation (CDP) was 5.5%, and GDP growth was 3%.

Housing and transportation costs are low. Cubans receive government-subsidized education, healthcare and food subsidies."

About that 'Human Development Index'. It ranks Cuba 30th of 176 nations in life expectancy; second in literacy with 99.8%; sixth in primary school enrollment; 17th of 135 in the 'human poverty index' (lower is better).

Cuba has essentially no homelessness; reportedly, homelessness is illegal; if a person is homeless, the government provides them housing (the US has an estimated 500,000 homeless).

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Cubans make an average of $20 a month. That's a McDonald's lunch for two.

When are you moving?
 
You've had the facts provided, with links. Use them. And no, you don't "get it" at all. 'My country, right or wrong', is what I'm reading. Read this:

Khmer Rouge jailer says U.S. contributed to Pol Pot rise - Reuters

Breaking: Thug facing prison for immense period of time desperately tries to cover his ass by blaming the US.

Your link provides no evidence that the US “supported the Khmer Rouge in any way” and in fact reinforces my point that we actively bombed them—again, which caused leftists here and in Europe to howl with outrage.

It’s literally nothing more than the opinion of a single dude—on trial no less—-and therefore not exactly a rousing indictment of the US or any sort of excuse for the numerous atrocities committed by Cuba or any other left wing dictatorship.
 
Breaking: Thug facing prison for immense period of time desperately tries to cover his ass by blaming the US.

Your link provides no evidence that the US “supported the Khmer Rouge in any way” and in fact reinforces my point that we actively bombed them—again, which caused leftists here and in Europe to howl with outrage.

It’s literally nothing more than the opinion of a single dude—on trial no less—-and therefore not exactly a rousing indictment of the US or any sort of excuse for the numerous atrocities committed by Cuba or any other left wing dictatorship.

Yes, you bombed Cambodia-and then guess what? As soon as Cambodia started a fight with the hated North Vietnamese they suddenly became your best friends and the money, guns and support started to flow. Then came the offer, from the US, of a seat at the UN for a genocidal maniac; Pol Pot! What a stroke of genius; even the idiot Trump couldn't have surpassed that one-or am I giving him too much credit?
 
Cuba has essentially no homelessness; reportedly, homelessness is illegal; if a person is homeless, the government provides them housing (the US has an estimated 500,000 homeless).

There is so much BS constantly being told about the vitues of Cuba and providing for it's citizens--- all lies.... well, UNLESS you are a member of the communist party leadership in that nation.

After the revolution Castro systematically DESTROYED the Cuban economy and the one rich Cuban agricultural business in exchange for a one crop approach namely sugar. Sugar isn't a very rare commodity, so when Casto believed to squeeze the US on the price of sugar, the US just found other places to buy it. Necessitating more Cuban reliance on the then USSR to subsidize their economy. Yeah, great idea.

Today your average Cuban cannot even buy aspirin in a store and most Cuban families rely on relatives in other countries to help support them. Many homes have not been painted or repaired in 60 years. Just a gallon of paint or a box of nails is hard to come by.

But the Castro regime will not back away from their stranglehold on the people and has looked to tourism as a means to bring in revenue. Many tourists from the USA, Canada, Australia, and Europe travel to Havana for the great deals and wonderful climate. Those tourists come back saying, "it isn't so bad in Cuba" but they never see the real Cuba today. Areas where foreign tourists travel are not areas where MOST Cubans are allowed to travel too--- the government keeps all of the really poor and desperate away from the view of foreign tourist and there money. But there is another thing goin on in Cuba and that is the horrible reality of sex tourism which the Communist government permits. Men mainly who travel to Cuba to have sex with poor desperate women MANY OF THEM CHILDREN. The problem is real in Cuba, and for a government which controls every other aspect of life in that nation, the fact that it continues is because the government allows it. The once "great socialist revolution" in Cuba basically has devolved into a government that is a PIMP--- taking advantage of it's own people.

Bernie Sanders and the left will talk about "the good things" they claim the revolutionary government in Cuba has done. I wonder why they don't just add to that all the "good things" the Fascists did in the '30s like getting the trains running on time, building infrastructure and all of the money they spent on the arts?

Cuba is a horrible place with a government worse than China and almost as bad as North Korea.
 
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