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Bernie's M4 All financing plan

poweRob said:
Boom. Paid for along with saving tens of thousands of lives per year and closing in on half a trillion dollars a year in savings. Next gripe?

Lancet Study Author Says Sanders' Financing Plan Fully Covers Cost of Medicare for All

"The options laid out by Sen. Sanders last night will more than cover" the cost of Medicare for All, said Yale University’s Alison Galvani, one of the nation’s leading experts on health care financing, and the co-author of a comprehensive report published in The Lancet analyzing the prospect of single-payer health care in the United States.

Galvani touted the details of Sanders’ financing plan released last night at a CNN town hall.

The Washington Post reports that the Lancet study shows “national single-payer health-care system would save tens of thousands of lives each year — and hundreds of billions of dollars.” In all, the Post notes that the study shows a “single-payer health-care system would save more than 68,000 lives and $450 billion a year.”​
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It must be early.

I read the title and thought "Who cares what kind of car Bernie drives?".
 
WCH said:
Being that nearly every country has huge amounts of debt, I expect some sort of reset.
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As I posted earlier, at this point, I would not allow anybody to spend a single additional thin dime until there was an actual plan in place to deal with the deficit. The current "plan" is no plan at all. There is no plan. There is simply, grow the deficit and thus the debt without a care in the world and kick the resulting added debt down the road to somebody else. Well just as in Trump's absurd Climate Change position which leads to the "somebody else" being people living today, the "somebody else" relative to our debt bubble are also people living today. In both cases, the people at risk are the very people that support either DonDon or Bernie. In both cases, we are no longer kicking our problems down to some future generation. We are blindly, absurdly and obliviously kicking it down the road to ourselves!!!!!

I also pointed our earlier that if we continue on this path we will ultimately have to monetize the debt. God help the people who are stuck with that solution. Personally, I don't want to be alive for that, though even I might well be.

As for Bernie himself, his plan to finance M4A and Free College and College Debt forgiveness is pure fantasy. He does not cover more than half the cost of his M4A plan and the rest of his nonsense simply won't fly and is illogical in spite of the rather obvious attraction to those that are direct beneficiaries. So, Bernie still has not reconciled his free stuff fantasies.

Just to be clear I will vote for Bernie if he is the Dem nominee because he does not represent the threat to the Republic that the Imperial Executive, DonDon the First represents. We can survive 4 years of Bernie who won't get any of his crap passed even with a Dem House and Senate. The Republic won't survive 4 more years of DonDon. The same of it is that I cannot talk about the two likely candidates for the highest office in the land and the most powerful office in the world (at least for now) in terms of what good might come from other. Instead I am forced to make a judgement about which one of them presents less of a risk to the Republic.
 
Slavister said:
This is not true: his plan is to hike taxes for everyone over $29k (which is everyone working full time for min wage of $15/hr) by at least 4% for M4A source of funding. However, he is arguing that on average this will be offset by out of pocket medical spending decrease for low-earning families.
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His tax rates are unchanged. If there's a separate tax for healthcare, which as you note is more than offset by the benefit and savings, that's something else.
 
jnug said:
As for Bernie himself, his plan to finance M4A and Free College and College Debt forgiveness is pure fantasy.
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You're a Bernie Derangement Syndrome machine. I expect you to keep spouting false things about Bernie thousands of times, until after his presidency. You put Fox to shame - they talk about more than anti-Bernie.
 
Craig234 said:
You're a Bernie Derangement Syndrome machine. I expect you to keep spouting false things about Bernie thousands of times, until after his presidency. You put Fox to shame - they talk about more than anti-Bernie.
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Bernie is the front runner. KEEP UP! Don't expect me to be as politically oblivious as a Dem....ANY DEM! I am an Independent and happier for it every day I watch these nitwits running for the nomination muck it up. As I have often said, for the most part Dems are very good at governing and lousy at Elections with all of two exceptions since John Kennedy ran.

And:

You should actually read the posts you are going to pull pieces from for quote blocks.
 
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If Bernie really wants to make progress regarding our broken Healthcare Maintenance System he would take one of our other poster's advice and tack the Public Option onto the ACA and taking on the pharmaceutical companies. He can't and won't get his M4A plan passed even with a Dem House and Senate which he is not likely to have even if he is elected. So his insistence on his plan simply means 4 more years of doing nothing to fix our broken system.
 
poweRob said:
Who could possibly refute all those supportive links you brought? :lol:
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We know you can't refute it because you never refute anything.
Your source and the person that wrote the article you posted served on sanders team to write it.

The study is therefore flawed with huge amounts of bias. Basically she is saying she is right because she says so.
 
Napoleon said:
And lest we forget his backdoor tax rate increases when everyone’s pre-tax premium deductions become taxable income and thrust millions of workers into a higher tax bracket.
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exactly. right now health insurance is deductible and isn't included. the premiums and tax increases is going to hit your entire pay check.
 
Napoleon said:
Yeah, let’s be honest about what this and every other study actually says. Nobody predicts that Sanders’ plan will reduce costs over what they are today. They will only continue to increase at slower rate than they otherwise would. The Lancet study is different only in its wild assumption of lives saved - which is that people who chose to opt out of insurance under the ACA and presumably the healthcare system at large will change their behaviors under M4A. I don’t believe that assumption. Getting back to costs.

There’s a very good reason that we won’t see any actual savings under Bernie’s M4A plan and it’s rather simple. Bernie’s big idea is nothing more than compulsory federal insurance. That’s it. Compulsory federal insurance operating in the same system of for-profit providers, manufacturers, and distributors we have now. If free-market principles could be relied upon to reduce healthcare costs then the ACA would have accomplished what it set out to do and we wouldn’t be talking about this right now. Bernie’s plan fails to reduce costs because it doesn’t establish an alternative to the for-profit healthcare (care not insurance) system we have.

We have the tools to reduce costs now and without savaging our paychecks with taxes. For example, the Federal government has the authority to seize pharmaceutical patents and turn them over to the NIH to develop generics or even directly manufacture and distribute the drug at cost. That is one thing we can do today. Even the threat of exercising that power has produced results in the military’s acquisition of pharmaceuticals below market value. So why adopt a $3-4 trillion insurance scheme and hope the profit motivated private sector will do that all by itself?
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You also have to remember his boom source? was a supposedly unpaid member of sanders team that helped write the bill.
 
Craig234 said:
You're a Bernie Derangement Syndrome machine. I expect you to keep spouting false things about Bernie thousands of times, until after his presidency. You put Fox to shame - they talk about more than anti-Bernie.
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It has already been proven time an time again that Sanders massive wealth grab will not finance his medicare for all let along all his other free stuff.
 
poweRob said:
Boom. Paid for along with saving tens of thousands of lives per year and closing in on half a trillion dollars a year in savings. Next gripe?

Lancet Study Author Says Sanders' Financing Plan Fully Covers Cost of Medicare for All

"The options laid out by Sen. Sanders last night will more than cover" the cost of Medicare for All, said Yale University’s Alison Galvani, one of the nation’s leading experts on health care financing, and the co-author of a comprehensive report published in The Lancet analyzing the prospect of single-payer health care in the United States.

Galvani touted the details of Sanders’ financing plan released last night at a CNN town hall.

The Washington Post reports that the Lancet study shows “national single-payer health-care system would save tens of thousands of lives each year — and hundreds of billions of dollars.” In all, the Post notes that the study shows a “single-payer health-care system would save more than 68,000 lives and $450 billion a year.”​
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The opposition acts like the cost of M4A is over and above all current health cost. They don't understand the simple math of what is spent now will just be paid into M4A and the net difference will be less than what the current system cost. The only question would be the additional cost of what additional benefits to whom than had before.
 
ludin said:
We know you can't refute it because you never refute anything.
Your source and the person that wrote the article you posted served on sanders team to write it.

The study is therefore flawed with huge amounts of bias. Basically she is saying she is right because she says so.
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No one should ever waste time trying to refute your unsupported fabrications.
 
Craig234 said:
His tax rates are unchanged. If there's a separate tax for healthcare, which as you note is more than offset by the benefit and savings, that's something else.
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Ok, but concept of "tax rate" is not very useful if you say your tax rate remains 24% but there is additional tax of 4%... but we won't "count it" as your "tax rate". Sorry, the "real" tax rate would increase.

Napoleon said:
And lest we forget his backdoor tax rate increases when everyone’s pre-tax premium deductions become taxable income and thrust millions of workers into a higher tax bracket.
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Good point. The ~$6k of premiums in Bernie's example would now become taxable at marginal tax rate (whether or not it pushes them into high brackets).
 
Slavister said:
Ok, but concept of "tax rate" is not very useful if you say your tax rate remains 24% but there is additional tax of 4%... but we won't "count it" as your "tax rate". Sorry, the "real" tax rate would increase.
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Given that any extra tax would be a net SAVINGS, it's perfectly legitimate to say.
 
Craig234 said:
Given that any extra tax would be a net SAVINGS, it's perfectly legitimate to say.
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No, it's not. The correct thing to say is the new rate is 4% higher plus additional tax on higher taxable income (see Napoleon's point), but average spending is expected to decrease by more than that.
 
WCH said:
That statement demonstrates either an appalling ignorance or a blatant disdain for truth and accuracy.

The US federal highway system was built for national defense and for a freer and faster route for goods and services a.k.a. capitalism.
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I didn't argue what it was built for.
It was nevertheless built by a quasi-socialist method, i.e. government acting as "single payer" for contracts.
We didn't run around begging J.P. Morgan to build roads that he would own and collect rents on.

the socialist highway network that he makes a living on.
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Of course it was built to facilitate capitalism.
Do you still believe that social democracy/democratic socialism doesn't embrace capitalism?
Seems so.
Was the Tennessee Valley Authority aimed at cultivating a generation of communists?
Did we enact the Rural Electrification program to endear people to a government takeover of industry?

Seems you've convinced yourself that DS is about replacing capitalism.
As long as you entertain such fallacies, none of this will make sense to you.

But before you proceed further, you may want to clear some of the other myths you have hard baked into your folklore.
 
Slavister said:
No, it's not. The correct thing to say is the new rate is 4% higher plus additional tax on higher taxable income (see Napoleon's point), but average spending is expected to decrease by more than that.
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Either way. The point is, people attacking Bernie by simply saying he'll raise taxes on those people is wrong.
 
Roadvirus said:
The one downside to Government-run healthcare is the government handling it. The government can easily **** up a lemonade stand....imagine how they would mismanage the healthcare needs of 300M people.
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medicare does not 'run' health care. Most patients are served by private clinics who compete with other private clinics who serve a proportion of their practice by accepting medicare patients.


the naval hospital is a gov run hospital and it is par none.

Medicare is NOT a gov run hospital, nevertheless.

When I was with Kaiser, a privately run hospital, years a go, I waited in much longer lines in waiting rooms than I ever waited at my privately run clinic ( who bills medicare for those patients they accept from medicare)
 
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Roadvirus said:
The one downside to Government-run healthcare is the government handling it. The government can easily **** up a lemonade stand....imagine how they would mismanage the healthcare needs of 300M people.
Click to expand...


The Naval hospital is a government run hospital, and it's par none.

Medicare is NOT gov run hospital, it's a consortium of private clinics, competing against each other for mostly private insurance paying patients, who also accept medicare patients.

When I was with Kaiser, years ago, a privately run hospital, I had to wait in long waiting rooms
that I do not have to wait in a smaller, private clinic that I have with medicare.

You really do not understand the subject, do you.


and, more about your 'government can't run a lemonaide stand" lie:

1. Police dept.

2. Fire dept.

3. Military

4. etc


You really need to study what you are talking about, lest you continue to embarrass yourself.
 
jnug said:
As I posted earlier, at this point, I would not allow anybody to spend a single additional thin dime until there was an actual plan in place to deal with the deficit. The current "plan" is no plan at all. There is no plan. There is simply, grow the deficit and thus the debt without a care in the world and kick the resulting added debt down the road to somebody else. Well just as in Trump's absurd Climate Change position which leads to the "somebody else" being people living today, the "somebody else" relative to our debt bubble are also people living today. In both cases, the people at risk are the very people that support either DonDon or Bernie. In both cases, we are no longer kicking our problems down to some future generation. We are blindly, absurdly and obliviously kicking it down the road to ourselves!!!!!

I also pointed our earlier that if we continue on this path we will ultimately have to monetize the debt. God help the people who are stuck with that solution. Personally, I don't want to be alive for that, though even I might well be.

As for Bernie himself, his plan to finance M4A and Free College and College Debt forgiveness is pure fantasy. He does not cover more than half the cost of his M4A plan and the rest of his nonsense simply won't fly and is illogical in spite of the rather obvious attraction to those that are direct beneficiaries. So, Bernie still has not reconciled his free stuff fantasies.

Just to be clear I will vote for Bernie if he is the Dem nominee because he does not represent the threat to the Republic that the Imperial Executive, DonDon the First represents. We can survive 4 years of Bernie who won't get any of his crap passed even with a Dem House and Senate. The Republic won't survive 4 more years of DonDon. The same of it is that I cannot talk about the two likely candidates for the highest office in the land and the most powerful office in the world (at least for now) in terms of what good might come from other. Instead I am forced to make a judgement about which one of them presents less of a risk to the Republic.
Click to expand...

Bernie is a dangerous threat to this Republic. We don't want to take the chance of entering pure Socialism and not being able to return.
 
poweRob said:
Boom. Paid for along with saving tens of thousands of lives per year and closing in on half a trillion dollars a year in savings. Next gripe?

Lancet Study Author Says Sanders' Financing Plan Fully Covers Cost of Medicare for All

"The options laid out by Sen. Sanders last night will more than cover" the cost of Medicare for All, said Yale University’s Alison Galvani, one of the nation’s leading experts on health care financing, and the co-author of a comprehensive report published in The Lancet analyzing the prospect of single-payer health care in the United States.

Galvani touted the details of Sanders’ financing plan released last night at a CNN town hall.

The Washington Post reports that the Lancet study shows “national single-payer health-care system would save tens of thousands of lives each year — and hundreds of billions of dollars.” In all, the Post notes that the study shows a “single-payer health-care system would save more than 68,000 lives and $450 billion a year.”​
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A government plan that saves money? There's no such thing. :lamo
 
OscarLevant said:
The Naval hospital is a government run hospital, and it's par none.

Medicare is NOT gov run hospital, it's a consortium of private clinics, competing against each other for mostly private insurance paying patients, who also accept medicare patients.

When I was with Kaiser, years ago, a privately run hospital, I had to wait in long waiting rooms
that I do not have to wait in a smaller, private clinic that I have with medicare.

You really do not understand the subject, do you.


and, more about your 'government can't run a lemonaide stand" lie:

1. Police dept.

2. Fire dept.

3. Military

4. etc


You really need to study what you are talking about, lest you continue to embarrass yourself.
Click to expand...

The VA is a clusterruck.

Cops don't **** up? Zero corruption?
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
I didn't argue what it was built for.
It was nevertheless built by a quasi-socialist method, i.e. government acting as "single payer" for contracts.
We didn't run around begging J.P. Morgan to build roads that he would own and collect rents on.



Of course it was built to facilitate capitalism.
Do you still believe that social democracy/democratic socialism doesn't embrace capitalism?
Seems so.
Was the Tennessee Valley Authority aimed at cultivating a generation of communists?
Did we enact the Rural Electrification program to endear people to a government takeover of industry?

Seems you've convinced yourself that DS is about replacing capitalism.
As long as you entertain such fallacies, none of this will make sense to you.

But before you proceed further, you may want to clear some of the other myths you have hard baked into your folklore.
Click to expand...

The Left in this country [all of them] have continually lied about their true goals. Changing their name [once again] doesn't affect that.

Lenin said; The goal of Socialism is Communism but, you probably never learned that.
 
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