Single Payer Infrastructure

MrWonka · Feb 25, 2020

In the Vein of Bernie's Single Payer Healthcare plan I would like to propose a similar system for infrastructure. Under this system the government will pay for the construction and maintenance of all roads, bridges, damns, tunnels, and ports. However, the actual construction and maintenance of these roads, bridges and so on will be carried out by private companies bidding on contracts.

The result will be a system where we insure that everyone has free access to our infrastructure and doesn't get stuck at home because they can't afford to build their own road. However, because there will be private contractors bidding over the contracts to build these roads we will still end up getting all the benefits of the free market as companies will still be competing and driving down costs.

What do you think? I mean if this exact type of system could work for Health Care why couldn't it work for building roads?

Drawdown · Feb 25, 2020

MrWonka said:
In the Vein of Bernie's Single Payer Healthcare plan I would like to propose a similar system for infrastructure. Under this system the government will pay for the construction and maintenance of all roads, bridges, damns, tunnels, and ports. However, the actual construction and maintenance of these roads, bridges and so on will be carried out by private companies bidding on contracts.

The result will be a system where we insure that everyone has free access to our infrastructure and doesn't get stuck at home because they can't afford to build their own road. However, because their will be private contractors bidding over the contracts to build these roads we will still end up getting all the benefits of the free market as companies will still be competing and driving down costs.

What do you think? I mean if this exact type of system could work for Health Care why couldn't it work for building roads?

So you want to eliminate gas taxes?

MrWonka · Feb 25, 2020

Drawdown said:
So you want to eliminate gas taxes?

In general I wouldn't mind getting rid of them, however, if we're going to keep them I'd prefer to use them more as a way to fund green energy solutions than I would building roads.

Even under Medicare for All individuals would likely end up paying small co-pays or deductibles of some sort.

ludin · Feb 25, 2020

MrWonka said:
In the Vein of Bernie's Single Payer Healthcare plan I would like to propose a similar system for infrastructure. Under this system the government will pay for the construction and maintenance of all roads, bridges, damns, tunnels, and ports. However, the actual construction and maintenance of these roads, bridges and so on will be carried out by private companies bidding on contracts.

The result will be a system where we insure that everyone has free access to our infrastructure and doesn't get stuck at home because they can't afford to build their own road. However, because there will be private contractors bidding over the contracts to build these roads we will still end up getting all the benefits of the free market as companies will still be competing and driving down costs.

What do you think? I mean if this exact type of system could work for Health Care why couldn't it work for building roads?

umm they already do this.

MrWonka · Feb 25, 2020

ludin said:
umm they already do this.

Really? We already have a system like this in place? Has it destroyed America? Is it controversial? Why is everyone making such a fuss about Bernie's Healthcare plan if we already have systems exactly like this in place already?

Checkerboard Strangler · Feb 25, 2020

MrWonka said:
In the Vein of Bernie's Single Payer Healthcare plan I would like to propose a similar system for infrastructure. Under this system the government will pay for the construction and maintenance of all roads, bridges, damns, tunnels, and ports. However, the actual construction and maintenance of these roads, bridges and so on will be carried out by private companies bidding on contracts.

The result will be a system where we insure that everyone has free access to our infrastructure and doesn't get stuck at home because they can't afford to build their own road. However, because there will be private contractors bidding over the contracts to build these roads we will still end up getting all the benefits of the free market as companies will still be competing and driving down costs.

What do you think? I mean if this exact type of system could work for Health Care why couldn't it work for building roads?

Oh HELL to the NO!!!
What we need here in America, is a full Ayn Rand libertarian approach, where everyone pays a toll every single time they leave their driveway, even if they're walking or biking. All transportation infrastructure privately owned and operated for a profit NOW!! :lamo

(This is sarcasm, but shhhhh, don't tell the Rethuglicans!)

ludin · Feb 26, 2020

MrWonka said:
Really? We already have a system like this in place? Has it destroyed America? Is it controversial? Why is everyone making such a fuss about Bernie's Healthcare plan if we already have systems exactly like this in place already?

Because that is not what Bernie wants to do. He wants full government control of healthcare. No private insurance companies will be allowed.
although i don't understand how he will do it without them. Medicare doesn't cover everything which is why you need supplemental insurance.
Also medicare is not free you have to pay premiums on top of it. Then there are co-pays and deductibles.

the average medicare supplement plan is 250-350 a month for 1 person.

MrWonka · Feb 26, 2020

ludin said:
Because that is not what Bernie wants to do. He wants full government control of healthcare. No private insurance companies will be allowed.

Insurance companies don't provide health care, they just pay for it. Hospitals provide the care. You seem to not understand what Bernie is actually saying at all.

Greenbeard · Feb 26, 2020

MrWonka said:
Really? We already have a system like this in place? Has it destroyed America? Is it controversial? Why is everyone making such a fuss about Bernie's Healthcare plan if we already have systems exactly like this in place already?

Isn’t the consensus that our infrastructure is eroding around us (sometimes dangerously so) due in no small part to political dysfunction in D.C.? I’m not sure I follow holding up the state of our infrastructure as a triumph. “Infrastructure week” was a pretty popular recurring joke around the interwebs for a while a year or two ago.

MrWonka · Feb 26, 2020

Greenbeard said:
Isn’t the consensus that our infrastructure is eroding around us (sometimes dangerously so) due in no small part to political dysfunction in D.C.? I’m not sure I follow holding up the state of our infrastructure as a triumph. “Infrastructure week” was a pretty popular recurring joke around the interwebs for a while a year or two ago.

So you're argument is that because Republicans are ****ing awful cheapskates that constantly **** up the government we can't let the government do anything? Seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy. The same people who hate government and want everything privatized are intentionally ****ing up the government so that everyone hates it.

In countries that are run almost exclusively by liberals the government seems to work just fine, and the people of those countries are very happy with it.

Napoleon · Feb 26, 2020

MrWonka said:
In the Vein of Bernie's Single Payer Healthcare plan I would like to propose a similar system for infrastructure. Under this system the government will pay for the construction and maintenance of all roads, bridges, damns, tunnels, and ports. However, the actual construction and maintenance of these roads, bridges and so on will be carried out by private companies bidding on contracts.

The result will be a system where we insure that everyone has free access to our infrastructure and doesn't get stuck at home because they can't afford to build their own road. However, because there will be private contractors bidding over the contracts to build these roads we will still end up getting all the benefits of the free market as companies will still be competing and driving down costs.

What do you think? I mean if this exact type of system could work for Health Care why couldn't it work for building roads?

Except that isn’t anything like his M4A plan. Bernie’s proposal would be akin to saying that the Federal government will pay all of the tolls in a country where all infrastructure is owned and operated by a for-profit industry.

BlueTex · Feb 26, 2020

Checkerboard Strangler said:
Oh HELL to the NO!!!
What we need here in America, is a full Ayn Rand libertarian approach, where everyone pays a toll every single time they leave their driveway, even if they're walking or biking. All transportation infrastructure privately owned and operated for a profit NOW!! :lamo

(This is sarcasm, but shhhhh, don't tell the Rethuglicans!)

You are describing Texas highways...

Greenbeard · Feb 26, 2020

MrWonka said:
So you're argument is that because Republicans are ****ing awful cheapskates that constantly **** up the government we can't let the government do anything? Seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy. The same people who hate government and want everything privatized are intentionally ****ing up the government so that everyone hates it.

In countries that are run almost exclusively by liberals the government seems to work just fine, and the people of those countries are very happy with it.

I’m not making an argument, just an observation. Your tongue-in-check thread implies you’d be satisfied if our hospitals and clinics were in the same shape as our roads and bridges. Am I reading you correctly?

ashurbanipal · Feb 26, 2020

ludin said:
Because that is not what Bernie wants to do. He wants full government control of healthcare. No private insurance companies will be allowed.
although i don't understand how he will do it without them. Medicare doesn't cover everything which is why you need supplemental insurance.
Also medicare is not free you have to pay premiums on top of it. Then there are co-pays and deductibles.

the average medicare supplement plan is 250-350 a month for 1 person.

Under Bernie’s plan, as explained on his website that you’ve obviously never visited, he explains that Medicare will cover everything-dental, vision, emergency care, primary care, prescription costs, specialist visits, hospice care, you-name-it. There will be no copays or deductibles. It’ll all be funded through taxes.

MrWonka · Feb 26, 2020

Napoleon said:
Except that isn’t anything like his M4A plan. Bernie’s proposal would be akin to saying that the Federal government will pay all of the tolls in a country where all infrastructure is owned and operated by a for-profit industry.

Nope. In this case, the Hospitals are the for profit government contractors. Instead of building roads they save lives. The government pays them, but they still compete with each other.

zimmer · Feb 26, 2020

MrWonka said:
In the Vein of Bernie's Single Payer Healthcare plan I would like to propose a similar system for infrastructure. Under this system the government will pay for the construction and maintenance of all roads, bridges, damns, tunnels, and ports. However, the actual construction and maintenance of these roads, bridges and so on will be carried out by private companies bidding on contracts.

The result will be a system where we insure that everyone has free access to our infrastructure and doesn't get stuck at home because they can't afford to build their own road. However, because there will be private contractors bidding over the contracts to build these roads we will still end up getting all the benefits of the free market as companies will still be competing and driving down costs.

What do you think? I mean if this exact type of system could work for Health Care why couldn't it work for building roads?

Canadian system.

Utter failure.

Would you want this for cell phone, auto, or any other service?

MrWonka · Feb 26, 2020

Greenbeard said:
I’m not making an argument, just an observation. Your tongue-in-check thread implies you’d be satisfied if our hospitals and clinics were in the same shape as our roads and bridges. Am I reading you correctly?

If I had my choice, I would implement universal healthcare in an entirely different way. My point is simply that we have systems in place like this already and while there is certainly room for improvement the world is not ending because of them. There are already a **** load of problems with our private system. I'm sure a single payer system would not be flawless, but I would still prefer those flaws to the ones we have now.

In a perfect world, I would implement a plan where Medicare would kick in once your medical bills exceeded some given threshold for the year. Something like $30,000. It would essentially be like having 2 deductible. You'd have a deductible that you would have to pay out of pocket before your private insurance kicked in, and then a deductible that your private insurance would have to cover until medicare kicked in. I believe this would give us the best of both worlds, but if Bernie ends up President I'm not too worried about his plan.

Napoleon · Feb 26, 2020

MrWonka said:
Nope. In this case, the Hospitals are the for profit government contractors. Instead of building roads they save lives. The government pays them, but they still compete with each other.

Hospitals are not competing with each other for contracts. The government is going to pay whoever sends them a bill and it has no control or influence over which hospital patients use.

MrWonka · Feb 26, 2020

zimmer said:
Canadian system.

Canadians are very happy with it. In fact, Rand Paul himself traveled to Canada just last year to get better care than he could in the States.

zimmer said:
Would you want this for cell phone, auto, or any other service?

When you buy a cellphone or a car you want to use it every day. When you buy insurance you hope to never actually need it. This creates a very different dynamic which the free market cannot handle well.

Furthermore, if you can't pay for a cellphone, the phone company isn't required to give you one anyway. This makes it very different than any other commodity. If you're in a car accident, an ambulance will come and try to save you. They won't ask how much you make or what insurance you have they'll just take you to the emergency room. The doctors will do everything they can to save you. They won't ask whether you can afford it. If you can't pay them after the fact, the hospitals then have to charge every other customer who can afford it more money to cover what they lost on you.

The very nature of insurance necessitates that it is something which we purchase as a group. It can't realistically work any other way.

zimmer · Feb 26, 2020

MrWonka said:
Canadians are very happy with it. In fact, Rand Paul himself traveled to Canada just last year to get better care than he could in the States.

When you buy a cellphone or a car you want to use it every day. When you buy insurance you hope to never actually need it. This creates a very different dynamic which the free market cannot handle well.

Furthermore, if you can't pay for a cellphone, the phone company isn't required to give you one anyway. This makes it very different than any other commodity. If you're in a car accident, an ambulance will come and try to save you. They won't ask how much you make or what insurance you have they'll just take you to the emergency room. The doctors will do everything they can to save you. They won't ask whether you can afford it. If you can't pay them after the fact, the hospitals then have to charge every other customer who can afford it more money to cover what they lost on you.

The very nature of insurance necessitates that it is something which we purchase as a group. It can't realistically work any other way.

Canadians are not happy with it.

They’re not happy suffering and dying waiting for 3rd rate care.

Ask the thousands of Canadians who go south to get treatment about it.

Do a little reading.

Widen your knowledge base.

It’s a Communist system with Communist results.

When people have to go to the Supreme Court of Quebec to have it mandated that waiting lists do not constitute care... you know you’ve got a seriously ****ed system.

It’s slow.

It has old technology.

It has long wait lists.

And it is corrupt... like all Commi systems.

there are all manner of articles like these: The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care | Canada Health Care

If you have an ounce of intellectual curiosity.

MrWonka · Feb 26, 2020

Napoleon said:
Hospitals are not competing with each other for contracts. The government is going to pay whoever sends them a bill and it has no control or influence over which hospital patients use.

That's not entirely accurate. First of all, hospitals are competing for patients. That's important. Secondly, what medicare can do is look around at what similar procedures cost at other hospitals. If some hospitals are charging significantly less for the same procedure Medicare can direct patients to that hospital and or require the more expensive hospitals to justify their excessive costs. If they can't they can require them to accept the lower cost.

Now, don't get me wrong there is cause for concern about how this will all work, but it does in fact work quiet well in most modern nations on earth, and there's no real reason to think it can't work here.

MrWonka · Feb 26, 2020

zimmer said:
Canadians are not happy with it.

Yes, they are. They have a democracy. If they didn't like it they can change it.

zimmer said:
They’re not happy suffering and dying waiting for 3rd rate care.

They're not. Their care is actually better than what we have here in America.

zimmer said:
Ask the thousands of Canadians who go south to get treatment about it.

Americans travel to Canada for care as often if not more often than the other way around. Those who come to America do so because of a specialist that exists in one of our major cities that's not available to them in the Klondike. It's similar to why Rand Paul went to Canada last year for treatment.

zimmer said:
It’s slow.

It has old technology.

It has long wait lists.

False. False. and False.

zimmer · Feb 26, 2020

MrWonka said:
Canadians are very happy with it. In fact, Rand Paul himself traveled to Canada just last year to get better care than he could in the States.

When you buy a cellphone or a car you want to use it every day. When you buy insurance you hope to never actually need it. This creates a very different dynamic which the free market cannot handle well.

Furthermore, if you can't pay for a cellphone, the phone company isn't required to give you one anyway. This makes it very different than any other commodity. If you're in a car accident, an ambulance will come and try to save you. They won't ask how much you make or what insurance you have they'll just take you to the emergency room. The doctors will do everything they can to save you. They won't ask whether you can afford it. If you can't pay them after the fact, the hospitals then have to charge every other customer who can afford it more money to cover what they lost on you.

The very nature of insurance necessitates that it is something which we purchase as a group. It can't realistically work any other way.

This is from a guy trained in the Canadian System... an MD:

I was once a believer in socialized medicine. I don’t want to overstate my case: growing up in Canada, I didn’t spend much time contemplating the nuances of health economics. I wanted to get into medical school—my mind brimmed with statistics on MCAT scores and admissions rates, not health spending. But as a Canadian, I had soaked up three things from my environment: a love of ice hockey; an ability to convert Celsius into Fahrenheit in my head; and the belief that government-run health care was truly compassionate. What I knew about American health care was unappealing: high expenses and lots of uninsured people. When HillaryCare shook Washington, I remember thinking that the Clintonistas were right.

My health-care prejudices crumbled not in the classroom but on the way to one. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute. Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care. I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic—with a three-year wait list; or the woman needing a sleep study to diagnose what seemed like sleep apnea, who faced a two-year delay; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks.

The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care | Canada Health Care

When the government takes over... it gets ****ed up... and you have no recourse.

No government program comes in on budget, delivers what is promised in a timely manner. NEVER.

Napoleon · Feb 26, 2020

MrWonka said:
That's not entirely accurate. First of all, hospitals are competing for patients. That's important. Secondly, what medicare can do is look around at what similar procedures cost at other hospitals. If some hospitals are charging significantly less for the same procedure Medicare can direct patients to that hospital and or require the more expensive hospitals to justify their excessive costs. If they can't they can require them to accept the lower cost.

Now, don't get me wrong there is cause for concern about how this will all work, but it does in fact work quiet well in most modern nations on earth, and there's no real reason to think it can't work here.

There is a very big difference between what “most modern nations on earth” are doing and what Sanders is proposing. They aren’t stupid and lazy enough to think single-payer achieves lower cost. They have a network of public non-profit providers and direct price regulation operating with and alongside a for-profit private sector. There’s nothing that would prevent hospitals from charging the highest negotiated prices they have with private insurers today.

Require them to accept the lower cost? I don’t think so. What’s more likely to happen is that they will demand the higher cost or else treatment x is out of the question and the government will pay it because what are politicians going to do? Say, sorry constituents, no more insulin for you because it’s too expensive? And I can already hear the backroom extortion. Nice manufacturing plant you have in your district. Be a shame if something happened to all those jobs because you don’t want to pay us what we’re asking.

zimmer · Feb 26, 2020

MrWonka said:
Yes, they are. They have a democracy. If they didn't like it they can change it.

They're not. Their care is actually better than what we have here in America.

Americans travel to Canada for care as often if not more often than the other way around. Those who come to America do so because of a specialist that exists in one of our major cities that's not available to them in the Klondike. It's similar to why Rand Paul went to Canada last year for treatment.

False. False. and False.

You’re living in some type of fantasy world... and have been fed a lot of high grade manure. I have family in Canada... and a family member suffered thanks to that Communist system.

"Father" of Canadian Health Care Admits its a Failure | Civitas Review

Number of Canadians Seeking Healthcare Outside Of Canada Dramatically Increases - International HealthCare Providers

Another reminder that Canada’s health-care system is failing patients
You are being redirected...

Health system failing elderly and chronically ill, says report

A historical $5.2 billion dollar loss for Canadians due to healthcare waits. - International HealthCare Providers

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...-t-romanticize-the-canadian-healthcare-system

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapo...re-is-the-goal-dont-copy-canada/#7109248978d5

https://www.heritage.org/health-car...e-believe-about-canadian-health-care-shouldnt

And the Baby Boomers are just entering an already massively overburdened system. Just wait for the even bigger nightmare to come!!!

I too believed in the system... and it was the last of the Socialist ideas I shed. It sounds compassionate... but it’s a failure and anything but compassionate.

The best system is a free market system. Costs decrease, services are fast, technology is updated, and there is a wide variety of price points.

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