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Bad political views because of poor education

Logical1 said:
And look what the taxes are in those countries!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Either way you pay. Either through taxes or privately. Cheaper to pay with taxes
 
Citizen said:
The point is that socialism is has not failed as you say. Besides, nobody want pure socialism as no one wants pure capitalism. People cried the same socialism is terrible crap when social security and Medicare was put in place.
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Again, these are social programs, NOT socialism. True socialism says what you are entitled to and what you are not, capitalism says work hard, take everything that you earn. Socialism is nowhere near like capitalism. Capitalism, is how we can afford social programs to begin with. They are NOT even remotely the same. Dictionary definitions are not the great source for truly understanding the three main political ideologies, I suggest reading them, sure, but then you have to do a lot more research to find the truth in both principle, and practice.

Tim-
 
Moderate Right said:
What the left don't understand is that socialism often starts with Democratic Socialism. Once the Socialists are in full control of the government, the Democratic part is done away with and by then it will be too late to stop it. The left proclaim that Trump wants to be a dictator and won't leave office but the opposite is actually true. Once the so called socialists gain full control of the government, democracy is gone.
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Give us some historical examples.
 
Logical1 said:
This week end, my son was telling me about the political views of some young guys just out of college that work for and with him. They think that the socialist Bernie is just wonderful. They think this because he is promising them "free stuff". Their poor education never informed them that socialism has really never worked. And they think JUST the rich people are going to provide them with all their free stuff. First of all where they go wrong is they dont understand that all the free stuff Bernie is promising is estimated to cost 100 TRILLION DOLLARS over 10 years. It is simply pie in the sky and impossible thinking, and all the money of all the rich people in the country is just drop in the bucket, when talking that kind of money.

I told my son that when he is talking to these young guys he should tell them about Sweden that socialist hold up as a paradise. You are welcome to check these facts, but people in Sweden pay right at 60% income tax, and they have a 26% VAT on nearly everything. I didn check, but they also pay a huge gas tax for their cars on top of the other two. All those taxes are paid by EVERYONE, not just rich people. Further I told him to tell these young guys that think they are going to get a windfall of wonderful free stuff with Bernie, they need to do a lot of reading on socialism.

Socialism has never really worked. Then there is the fact that in the last century it killed approx 100 million people. Too far back in history for those young guys, how about Venezuela. 20 years ago that country had the 4th highest economy in the whole world. Then it went socialist, and now their money is almost worthless and people are eating dogs.
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I went to your link and it didn't have much to read.
 
Hicup said:
Visbek, you live in an alternate reality Sir. Not surprised, socialists generally do. Sweden and Denmark, and to some extent, Norway, are oil rich nations with very small populations. You could say that Alaska is more socialist than any of the other 49 states, and for exactly the same reasons. It can work if managed correctly and with rich resources, the problem, as I've laid out is that even in small tight examples, even these socialist nation fail over time, especially when the resources they rely on become too expensive to extract, and the taxation of one crowd over another becomes unjust.

look, I'm not here to debate this issue. Any student of history going back 100 years knows full well I haven't stated anything untruthful. By the way, England and France, and some extent the rest of Europe are rejecting socialism as we speak. It's a matter of time before the EU experiment is over. Luckily, unlike past death spirals, Europe may be able to break away with minimal death tolls. We'll see.


Tim-
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Norway and Denmark have oil, not Sweden.

There are so many countries in Europe, you can’t really generalize about whether left or right wing parties are in the ascendancy. Different voting systems in different nations provide a variety of governments. Proportional Representation which is prevalent throughout Europe results in coalition governments which tends to dilute ideological driven regimes.

As to whether the EU is on the decline, I would suggest the cautionary tale of the UK will actually strengthen the union.
 
Praxas said:
Ah yes the slippery slope nonsense. Bernie is not advocating for the US to be socialist. That’s the fact.
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He calls himself a socialist. He wants big government, so big that it encompasses everything in our lives and is totally controlled by the government. And he's complimenting Castro for God sakes.
 
Decypher said:
Give us some historical examples.
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LOL. I don't need to provide historical examples showing that socialism ALWAYS FAILS. Just because you put "Democratic" in front of it doesn't mean it's any different. There is no such thing as Democratic socialism. It doesn't exist. Never has. Never will. It only exists in the mind of Bernie and his cult. By the way, Venezuela is Democratic socialism. They vote. LOL. So does Russia. And yet, this is what you want, Democratic socialism. Why don't you just move to either Venezuela or Russia? Bernie also says that Cuba is a great place. Maybe you should go there. I hear they have free healthcare and education.
 
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Questerr said:
So we shouldn’t see you, the OP, or any other Conservatives calling policies from countries like Sweden “socialist” ever again, should we?
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I don't control "any other conservatives" and the definition has been bastardized beyond recognition by some. So, let's not play any silly semantic games.
 
Moderate Right said:
He calls himself a socialist. He wants big government, so big that it encompasses everything in our lives and is totally controlled by the government. And he's complimenting Castro for God sakes.
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Democratic socialist does not equal socialist. Your comments are just plain ignorant and shows you know jack **** about socialism.

As praising a dictator, you all didn’t seem to mind trumps mouth firmly on NK leader’s ass calling him a “good guy” and saying they were “in-love”. Take your hypocrisy and fall off your soap box.
 
Moderate Right said:
LOL. I don't need to provide historical examples showing that socialism ALWAYS FAILS. Just because you put "Democratic" in front of it doesn't mean it's any different. There is no such thing as Democratic socialism. It doesn't exist. Never has. Never will. It only exists in the mind of Bernie and his cult. By the way, Venezuela is Democratic socialism. They vote. LOL. So does Russia. And yet, this is what you want, Democratic socialism. Why don't you just move to either Venezuela or Russia? Bernie also says that Cuba is a great place. Maybe you should go there. I hear they have free healthcare and education.
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My goodness, you’re all over the place here. First you say that throughout history, democratic socialism is initially implemented but then some kind of socialist authoritarianism takes hold. Then, in your next post, you say democratic socialism doesn’t exist and is only in the mind of Bernie Sanders. A few lines later, you say it exists in Venezuela and invite me to move there or to Cuba. You might recall I never advocated any type of socialism, merely asked you to provide some evidence for your claim that “What the left don't understand is that socialism often starts with Democratic Socialism. Once the Socialists are in full control of the government, the Democratic part is done away with”.

It’s clear you don’t really understand the terms you’re throwing about and your historical knowledge of different types of economic and political systems is non existent. I hear Sanders is advocating free third level education. Perhaps if he wins in November, you might consider taking a political science class at your local community college.
 
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Hicup said:
Visbek, you live in an alternate reality Sir. Not surprised, socialists generally do.
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:roll:

I'm not a socialist. My reality is based on actual facts -- apparently, unlike yours. To wit....


Sweden and Denmark, and to some extent, Norway, are oil rich nations with very small populations.You could say that Alaska is more socialist than any of the other 49 states, and for exactly the same reasons. It can work if managed correctly and with rich resources, the problem, as I've laid out is that even in small tight examples, even these socialist nation fail over time, especially when the resources they rely on become too expensive to extract, and the taxation of one crowd over another becomes unjust.
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Ahh yes, the ultimate Hedgehog defense. "OK, it didn't happen yet, even though it's been decades, but it will happen eventually! You'll see!!!"

It's also bull****. Sweden isn't an oil exporter; their major exports are engineering services (that's 50% of exports), timber, hydropower, telecommunications and autos. Denmark also isn't an oil exporter; its economy is dominated by the service sector (that's 80% of all jobs), major exports are machinery, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, sea transportation services.

Ironically, it is Norway that is the major oil exporter of the three. However, oil production has dropped almost in half since the early 1990s, and the value of oil has dropped significantly in the past decade, yet Norway's debt-to-GDP ratio is around 35% -- about 1/3 that of the US.

In all three of those nations, there is very little interest in cutting either benefits or taxes.

And of course, nations like France, Germany, Ireland, UK, and Iceland have extensive safety nets, public education and government health care without excessively relying on oil or natural resources to pull it off.

More to the point is that you claimed that "socialism trades off of class warfare" and "socialism is always about control" and "socialism always fails" And yet, we have multiple examples of societies offering those options, for decades, without becoming authoritarian or totalitarian, adjusting well to service and knowledge economies, and in many cases keeping their government debt-to-GDP ratios much lower than the US. Hmmmm.


look, I'm not here to debate this issue. Any student of history going back 100 years knows full well I haven't stated anything untruthful. By the way, England and France, and some extent the rest of Europe are rejecting socialism as we speak. It's a matter of time before the EU experiment is over.
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lol

Dude? Any "student of history" would easily spot the errors in your post.

In addition to the above: England and France aren't "rejecting socialism." Some European nations went on an austerity binge, and it failed. Brexiteers claimed they were going to put more money into the National Health Service, not gut it. An attempt by the French government to even think about reforming the existing pension plans resulted in months and months of street protests and strikes.

I don't know how you did it, but you've managed to completely mistake a rise in nationalism and anti-immigrant sentiment for an anti-socialist movement. That's an error so huge, it's almost impressive. Almost.
 
washunut said:
German GDP actually slowed quite a bit in 2019 you may not have noticed.

The other three countries are so small not sure they cab be used in any rational sense to America.
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I'm sorry, but that is about as weak an argument as you can get.

The idea that "Germany's GDP slowed in 2019" in any way illustrates the kind of abject economic failure that the right-wing associates with socialism is downright ludicrous. Here's Germany's GDP growth rate for the past 25 years. Did socialism massively fail in 2009, only to recover the next year? lol

Germany GDP.jpg

By the way, Germany's economy is slowing down a bit because it relies heavily on manufacturing for export, and the global economy is slowing enough to hit GDP growth. Of course, that's exactly the kind of economy that Trump lusts for. Go figure.

Anyway. It doesn't matter whether a nation is small or large, because we're talking about tax revenues and expenditures. The reality is that those nations can afford to offer solid safety nets, universal health care, extensive child care and leave, and so on primarily because a) they aren't spending massive amounts of money on military, and b) they didn't spend the past 40 years slashing taxes for the wealthy and corporations.
 
Moderate Right said:
How true! My state is currently trying to advance medical Marijuana. I'm not totally against that as long as there are very strict controls. Unfortunately, the Pain Doctor centers start popping up like they do with opioids and you get a bunch of college kids with severe back pain applying for medical Marijuana, the poor things. There will be an epidemic of college aged kids with severe back pain where nothing else helps them like Marijuana does. And, as you said, these kids get student loans to go to school for sex, drugs, and rock n roll and soon they will be able to go to school for free and with MFA they probably won't have to pay for their joints either. Politics? What the hell's that? What country did we fight to get our independence? Who knows? Who fought in the US Civil War? Who knows. But, I'm voting for that guy that will let me go to college for free so I can party and smoke dope. That's my guy.
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Trouble is, a lot of those students are being semi or fully supported after they graduate from school by their parents. The too might be tempted to vote for Bernie..
 
Logical1 said:
This week end, my son was telling me about the political views of some young guys just out of college that work for and with him. They think that the socialist Bernie is just wonderful. They think this because he is promising them "free stuff". Their poor education never informed them that socialism has really never worked. And they think JUST the rich people are going to provide them with all their free stuff. First of all where they go wrong is they dont understand that all the free stuff Bernie is promising is estimated to cost 100 TRILLION DOLLARS over 10 years. It is simply pie in the sky and impossible thinking, and all the money of all the rich people in the country is just drop in the bucket, when talking that kind of money.

I told my son that when he is talking to these young guys he should tell them about Sweden that socialist hold up as a paradise. You are welcome to check these facts, but people in Sweden pay right at 60% income tax, and they have a 26% VAT on nearly everything. I didn check, but they also pay a huge gas tax for their cars on top of the other two. All those taxes are paid by EVERYONE, not just rich people. Further I told him to tell these young guys that think they are going to get a windfall of wonderful free stuff with Bernie, they need to do a lot of reading on socialism.

Socialism has never really worked. Then there is the fact that in the last century it killed approx 100 million people. Too far back in history for those young guys, how about Venezuela. 20 years ago that country had the 4th highest economy in the whole world. Then it went socialist, and now their money is almost worthless and people are eating dogs.
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Yes, tell the Swedes with their fantastic standard of living, how 'socialism' has failed them. I suspect you'd hear the chorus of laughter across the Atlantic.
 
MrWonka said:
LOL!!! Hey Comrade, maybe you should try learning what Socialism actually is and what Democratic Socialism is before you start criticizing other people's education.
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It's just too funny.
 
Hicup said:
I thank you for your explanation and analogies. They were easy to understand, and helpful to the discussion as a whole, but here's the problem you have. Democratic socialism is exactly as it sounds. It's a means by which eventually in a democratic society socialists gain control. How do they gain control, any number of ways, but specifically it typically starts with a populace that is profoundly unhappy with their plight, (Socialists and communists embrace the downtrodden - "Bernies working class") and the political figure seizes on the opportunity to offer a method by which the "lower-class" (Down-trodden) can be lifted up, and if only they were in charge, the ruling class would get what was coming to them, they would.... "Pay for our misery". It's exactly the way it has been enacted for the last 150 years in various forms around the globe. Perceive a class problem, identify those with the most to gain, and if they outnumber the most to lose, in a democracy, you can in effect, take control. The issue with socialism isn't that it sounds great; IT really does, who wouldn't want that system of fairness where everyone contributes based on their abilities. Problem is that the goal of socialists and communist's isn't about the people, it only good for gaining control. That's what they want, they think they're smarter than those people they purport to represent and they think they can make better decisions. The only problem with this for the socialists that now have control, is that eventually those that stand to gain and those that stand to lose flip flop. So, sensing a loss of control that would permeate another 100 more years where socialism will lose control, socialists and communists manipulate the rules and the laws so that THEY never lose control democratically.

All socialists democracies fail the exact same ways. Economically first, then by the sword. The problem is that both ways suck, and both ways cause a lot of harm, suffering and death!


Tim-
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Try not paying your taxes and see how 'control' works in the US.
 
Logical1 said:
This week end, my son was telling me about the political views of some young guys just out of college that work for and with him. They think that the socialist Bernie is just wonderful. They think this because he is promising them "free stuff". Their poor education never informed them that socialism has really never worked. And they think JUST the rich people are going to provide them with all their free stuff. First of all where they go wrong is they dont understand that all the free stuff Bernie is promising is estimated to cost 100 TRILLION DOLLARS over 10 years. It is simply pie in the sky and impossible thinking, and all the money of all the rich people in the country is just drop in the bucket, when talking that kind of money.

I told my son that when he is talking to these young guys he should tell them about Sweden that socialist hold up as a paradise. You are welcome to check these facts, but people in Sweden pay right at 60% income tax, and they have a 26% VAT on nearly everything. I didn check, but they also pay a huge gas tax for their cars on top of the other two. All those taxes are paid by EVERYONE, not just rich people. Further I told him to tell these young guys that think they are going to get a windfall of wonderful free stuff with Bernie, they need to do a lot of reading on socialism.

Socialism has never really worked. Then there is the fact that in the last century it killed approx 100 million people. Too far back in history for those young guys, how about Venezuela. 20 years ago that country had the 4th highest economy in the whole world. Then it went socialist, and now their money is almost worthless and people are eating dogs.
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Yet, they so happy in Sweden. That should count for something.

You should see the crazy right-wing crap my son gets across his social media.
 
Ikari said:
Isn't Sweden rated like #7 on the happiness scale? US is what? 19th?

I mean, sure, talk about Sweden, people seen really happy there.

lol
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The one swedish guy I know is quite miserable, but also that dude has some personal problems...
 
WCH said:
Did they previously vote for Barry? He shipped Mexicans, hated Jews and did nothing for his own people.
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... his own people
 
WCH said:
Better tell the Democrat semi-Commies in this country.
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You, along with most conservatives, have no idea what socialism or communism are. That much is painfully obvious given your comments about Sweden. Oh, and Sweden isn't a "socialist paradise" because Sweden isn't a socialist country and never has been, despite what your far-right blog tells you to believe. Sweden is a constitutional monarchy. Not many socialist countries I can think of have a King and Queen, or a parliament representing the people, unless you can name one.

Monarchy of Sweden - Wikipedia
 
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independentusa said:
I am sure you told your kids it is better to give money to Corporations who already make huge profits like Amazon. Venezuela has gone not socialist but is now a dictatorship and the dictator is like in Russia stealing the country blind.
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3% profit margin isn't huge, do you have any financial training?
 
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