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Stop the nonsense - Bernie is just a social democrat

I don't like it either (I'm strongly against illegal immigration) but he would never be able to pass it. He will propose reinstatement of DACA, will propose immigration reform with a path to citizenship, but it is ultimately the role of Congress to pass bills on this so that he signs them into laws. No bills, no laws. We've seen that executive action on this is not a permanent solution (the sheer case of DACA is a prime example).

Some of the things that Bernie says is just plain crazy and we all know that it is not gonna get done, but lots of what trump says is crazy too and he was elected.
 
He does not need Congress, as he needs to do is to refuse to let the executive branch apply the law to illegals.

Yes, America is that bad now where Presidents think that they get to decide which laws are ignored.

Well, yeah, Trump has opened many precedents in the matter of ignoring laws. And yes, it is true that he might dilute ICE's actions. But see, actually this is all a bunch of posturing even from right wing administrations. Did you see the much publicized ICE raids that were supposed to net 2,000 illegal aliens? Trump tweeted about... boasted about it... which of course made the illegal aliens stay put and hidden and the raids netted what, 20 of them? LOL

No, Trump doesn't want to permanently solve the problem either, otherwise he wouldn't have the problem alive in order for him to rally his base.

NO administration has ever really tried to permanently solve this problem (and no, Trump's stupid wall is not a solution, at all).
 
Some of the things that Bernie says is just plain crazy and we all know that it is not gonna get done, but lots of what trump says is crazy too and he was elected.

At least Bernie is crazy in the right way
 
Open borders mean open. No guards, no check points no walls

Okay. I'm arguing that people who do not want illegal immigration stopped in any way shape or form or for illegal immigrants to be deported are for de facto open borders.
 
If a person does not believe illegal immigrants should be deported, and that illegal border crossers should not be detained with the object being deportation, then one is effectively for "open borders".

And what if instead the legal onus is concentrated more on employers who fail to use e-Verify?
If we have a robust, efficient and capable e-Verify system that is made to be accessible to ALL with no excuses, then there is no way illegals can find work to begin with.
Illegals do their illegaling because of the incentive to be an illegal.
If while still in their home country, they realize that they will never find a stitch of work here to begin with if they don't have their papers in order, but they also come to realize that our system rewards some basic merit, and is accessible and affordable, they will begin to try coming here legally instead.
And the system had better be able to process the ones who qualify.

I advocate for whatever constructively squeezes the FLOW of illegals (unauthorized and undocumented entrants) to a minimum.
Know who hates that idea the most?
Investors who profit off ownership of detention centers.
 
Some of the things that Bernie says is just plain crazy and we all know that it is not gonna get done, but lots of what trump says is crazy too and he was elected.

I know, both are populists and both make empty promises, and both groups of naive supporters believe in these promises and run to vote for them. It's called Politics, unfortunately. Still, Bernie will at least try to make things a bit better for the poor and the vulnerable. Trump? Pffft... he couldn't care less for anybody who isn't a member of the 1%.
 
Okay. I'm arguing that people who do not want illegal immigration stopped in any way shape or form or for illegal immigrants to be deported are for de facto open borders.

No one like that is running for president
 
Well, yeah, Trump has opened many precedents in the matter of ignoring laws. And yes, it is true that he might dilute ICE's actions. But see, actually this is all a bunch of posturing even from right wing administrations. Did you see the much publicized ICE raids that were supposed to net 2,000 illegal aliens? Trump tweeted about... boasted about it... which of course made the illegal aliens stay put and hidden and the raids netted what, 20 of them? LOL

No, Trump doesn't want to permanently solve the problem either, otherwise he wouldn't have the problem alive in order for him to rally his base.

NO administration has ever really tried to permanently solve this problem (and no, Trump's stupid wall is not a solution, at all).

Trumpty-Trump-Trump-Trump!
 
Bernie has been proffering the nationalization of various industries his entire adult life. I think it rather foolish that he doesn't intend to do exactly, should he win the presidential office.

That Bernie's not refuted or publicly stated his change in position is only attributable to the lame leftist media which gives him a pass on every 1/2 truth answer, and refuses to pose him any tough questions.

Bernie's one of the proponents for medicare for all. How is this not the nationalization and government takeover of the health care and health insurance industries? Those would be the means of 'production' for these services, would they not?

Recently, Bernie proposed national rent control.

www.wsj.com › Opinion › Review & Outlook
Sep 29, 2019 - A national rent control plan has been proposed by Bernie Sanders to address housing shortages across the country. But much like many of the ...

Bernie Sanders's housing-for-all plan, explained - Vox
[url]www.vox.com
› bernie-sanders-housing-for-all[/URL]
Sep 19, 2019 - Bernie Sanders, who released an expansive affordable-housing agenda ... The Sanders rent-control proposal is mercifully simple compared to ...

How is this not the government takeover and control of the rental property industry? This also would be the government takeover of the means of 'production', i.e. the offering of rental properties.

Experts in real estate and finance, both of whom understand free markets better than any Socialist / Communist, are predicting the usual failed and unintentional results from government meddling in the private sector and private sector free markets.

www.cato.org › blog › folly-bernie-sanders-national-rent-control-pro...
Jan 27, 2020 - “We need…a national rent control standard.” Now, his presidential campaign advocates one: under Sanders' housing proposals, all landlords ...

www.businessinsider.com › bernie-sanders-national-rent-control-2019...
Nov 3, 2019 - Bernie Sanders has called for "national rent control" as part of his campaign for ... There's a reason Sanders' proposal sounds appealing. Rents ...

Going on.

www.washingtonexaminer.com › opinion › bernie-sanders-isnt-a-democratic-socialist-hes-an-all-out-marxist
Jan 25, 2020 - Bernie Sanders is surging in the race for the 2020 Democratic ... his lifelong fascination with communism, not once did Sanders have the ...

Bernie Sanders, Socialism & Communism: He Sees What He Wants to See
[url]www.nationalreview.com
› 2020/02 › bernie-sanders-socialism-comm...[/URL]
2 days ago - It doesn't seem like a cheap shot to point out that Sanders got the reality of Communism wrong in the past and the rest of the world wrong in the ...

I Lived In Russia When Bernie Sanders Visited, And He's A Communist dupe
thefederalist.com › 2020/02/21 › i-lived-in-soviet-russia-when-bernie-...

2 days ago - Bernie Sanders, a man who could be led astray so easily by KGB ... I Lived In Soviet Russia When Bernie Sanders Visited, And He's A Communist Dupe ... but the lifelong habit of romancing American enemies — as is typical ...


Don't be fooled by Bernie Sanders — he's a diehard communist
nypost.com › 2016/01/16 › dont-be-fooled-by-bernie-sanders-hes-a-d...

Jan 16, 2016 - As polls tighten and self-described socialist Bernie Sanders looks more like a serious contender than a novelty candidate for president, the ...

Bernie doesn't want people to believe he's a Communist? Fine. Then Bernie needs to come out straight and unequivocally state that he doesn't support the government takeover of any industry or businesses during his administration should he be elected.

Otherwise the positions he's previously taken in support of government takeover of industries and businesses stand. :shrug:

Dear, what you've managed to do is to prove my point about the boogeyman attacks. You listed a bunch of right wing - and extreme right wing - publications and web sites. Sure, of course they will say he is a Marxist, a communist, etc. What else is new?
 
Okay. I'm arguing that people who do not want illegal immigration stopped in any way shape or form or for illegal immigrants to be deported are for de facto open borders.

No such thing. Fear mongering.
 
Know who hates that idea the most?
Investors who profit off ownership of detention centers.

Not only those, but big conglomerates that own hotels, restaurants, hog farms, construction companies, etc., etc. God forbid if we stopped the flow of illegal immigrants! They'd actually have to hire people by the books with at least minimum wage and benefits. No, can't do that. Cheap illegals are so much better for business!
 
No such thing. Fear mongering.

Bernie Sanders himself stated that he would seek to temporarily "halt deportations [and] decriminalize border crossings." I will not allow myself to be put to sleep or tut-tutted. Especially when people tell me their plans.

You cannot say your are against illegal immigration and then seek to do away with every measure meant to dis-incentivize illegal border crossings.
 
Then Bernie should not have self-avowed as a Democratic Socialist. Its that simple. Just as a matter of politics it was a bad move. In politics if you are explaining, you are losing and while barely being challenged at this point Bernie and his campaigners are doing an awful lot of explaining. They will end up doing a whole lot more explaining if he becomes the nominee and has to confront DonDon and the T-Party.

That the Trump Disinformation Apparatus calls every Dem a Socialist and will call Bernie a Communist is Bernie's problem. Its Bernie's problem because it was baked into the mix. Expecting Trump not to be Trump and the T-Party not to be the T-Party is simply not realistic.

I know. Like Checkerboard Strangler has explained, Bernie who is in politics for 50 years, labeled himself like this decades before he ever thought he would one day run for president, much less with a chance of being elected. He seems to be uncertain about the terms. Then, he sticks with the terms of his youth. But he obviously no longer wants to nationalize all means of production.

Is it regrettable that it gives ammunition to the right wing? It certainly is.

But somehow it hasn't hurt his poll numbers and his electoral primary results, at least not that we can see in specific opinion polls.

See, when Bernie speaks after a state win and says he wants to give affordable healthcare, housing, education, and decent wages to working Americans, I doubt that the people actually interested in voting for him start running around like Chicken Little and screaming "OH MY GOD THE SKY IS FALLING THE BIG BAD COMMUNIST BOGEYMAN IS COMING FOR US, TRUMP PLEASE SAVE US FROM THIS MONSTER!!!"
 
Bernie Sanders himself stated that he would seek to temporarily "halt deportations [and] decriminalize border crossings." I will not allow myself to be put to sleep or tut-tutted. Especially when people tell me their plans.

Well, then, vote for Trump. We hope to have more people on our side to vote for Bernie and beat Trump.

You certainly do have a right to express yourself, and to vote as you see fit. I'd say, though, that people who think like you are already counted in polls and voting precincts as Trump's voters anyway, so it is not like we'll bring these people to Bernie's side, which is fine, as long as we outnumber them, and I hope we will.
 
Sure, "communist" like even Bloomberg called him in the Nevada debate is a cheap shot, and Bernie reacted by saying exactly that. So, no, he isn't a communist.

But Bernie himself muddies the waters calling himself a democratic socialist, although he is anything but. What he is, is a social democrat. Here:

Bernie Sanders is a social democrat, not a democratic socialist — Quartz

Bernie's model is Canada's and Scandinavia's rather than Angola's, obviously (Angola is a country that actually defines its dominant system as democratic socialism). And of course, Bernie's vision is not the Marxist-Leninist orientation of Cuba.

And here, from the horse's mouth:

Bernie: I’m Just a New Deal Liberal in Socialist’s Branding



Bernie has also said in a TV interview with CBS that "I didn't do the equivalent of nationalizing anything when I was the mayor of Burlington, VT, right? My thinking on this has evolved." I paraphrase because this was on TV and I don't have a link to it, but that's what he said.

And here he was even clearer:

Wait
a moment, praise for the New Deal? No
interest in nationalization? That definition sounds a lot like capitalism! - Big Think




I'm aware that it is basically Bernie's fault for not being clear on the definitions... All that it demonstrates, though, is that Bernie has failed Political Science 101. But he is no socialist. He is more like FDR.

Why does he twist the definition? Some say it's because he wants the shock value, to de-stigmatize the word. Others say he wants to stick it to the bourgeoisie, by being rebellious (this is a bit infantile, for me). You know, Bernie has this personality trait of trying to be different. He calls himself an independent but has always caucused with the Democratic Party and he his voting records aligns with the Party's values and recommendations more than many other life-long Democratic senators, like I've shown with Bernie's actual voting record compared for example with Klobuchar's and especially Munchin's (the latter has voted with what Trump asked for and recommended, a whooping 52% of the time; Klobuchar some 34%, and Bernie only 16%).

I think that Bernie actually does a disservice to his electoral chances by insisting with this misguided label of "Democratic socialist" when he is actually a social democrat, in the sense that he gives ammunition to his electoral enemies, who keep pushing the idea of the socialist boogeyman who is coming to destroy America's economy.

Rest assured, fellow voters: if Bernie wins the November election, America's capitalism will survive just fine. We won't turn into Angola or Venezuela.
Well you have two problems here. One you have already identified, Bernie!. Another is that many of his allies in the progressive far left prefer to muddy those waters themselves because they identify as socialists, and they would love a famous American brother in arms to help rebrand socialism. They don't get a lot of chances at this and they intend to grab this one. Personally, I have promised to use Bernie's own term to identify him, and that is pretty much consistent with my philosophy. I don't like people shoving a label on me that I don't choose, for their own agenda driven purpose. If he wants to call himself a democratic socialist, or a social democrat that is what I will stick with.

We do agree that his views are a lot more harmless than the term 'socialist' so often connotates here in the states, especially among older voters. If you vote for Bernie, you are taking a huge risk that you cannot shed him of the stigma and fears associated with cold war dogma in time to get older voters and moderates to trust and take that leap.

He is not my choice by a long shot, but I will do what I can for this guy if he is my nominee. I am not scared of Bernie. Some of his Bernie Bros on the other hand......
 
Well, then, vote for Trump. We hope to have more people on our side to vote for Bernie and beat Trump.

You certainly do have a right to express yourself, and to vote as you see fit. I'd say, though, that people who think like you are already counted in polls and voting precincts as Trump's voters anyway, so it is not like we'll bring these people to Bernie's side, which is fine, as long as we outnumber them, and I hope we will.

If Bernie Sanders wins the nomination, then I believe I certainly will have to.
 
Dear, what you've managed to do is to prove my point about the boogeyman attacks. You listed a bunch of right wing - and extreme right wing - publications and web sites. Sure, of course they will say he is a Marxist, a communist, etc. What else is new?

Oh dear, you've not examined Bernie's long history. I suggest that you go back and take a long, hard look.

Oh dear, you believe that WSJ, VOX and NY Post are extreme right wing - publications! :lamo

Here's a hint: These publicans and web sites are considered to be mainstream. They were chosen quite purposefully for that reason.

As I posted, Bernie himself can allay these legitimate concerns, given his history, with a simple public statement clarifying the matter.
 
I do not care what label you or anyone else attaches to him, nor do I understand why anyone would care. Labels only confuse and oversimplify. My objections to Sanders are based on his actions and platform.

The labels are important in the sense that they are being used politically to attack him. If you object to Sanders on grounds of his actions and platform, sure, I can respect that. We all love our country but we differ on how to make it better. And of course it makes a lot more sense to gauge a candidate by his platform and especially by his actions (which count more than words on a campaign website) than labels. Unfortunately not all voters are well-informed like you, so, they tend to go by labels more easily, especially when those labels are used in disinformation campaigns by the opposition.
 
Then he is for "temporary" open borders. Whether it is to last for four days, or for four years.

The way to make it last less than four years is for Congress to pass bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform. I profoundly doubt that either part is interested in doing that, though, regardless of what politicians say in their campaigns.
 
First, is it your argument is that Bernie Sanders does not know the meaning of the term "Democratic Socialist" despite his labeling himself as such for the past four-plus decades, or that he is lying about his positions?

Second, as far as the New Deal being socialist, it pretty much was as socialist as anything Venezuela did. It should be remembered that Roosevelt's administration was making it illegal for farmers to grow food to feed their own animals. That is an extreme level of Federal interference in people's internal economic affairs. I do not want to see us going back to the New Deal when the Federal government could regulate and control our daily lives to such an extraordinary degree and when the Federal government was socialist in everything but name.

EDIT:

And by the way, I find the idea of Bernie Sanders not "nationalizing" anything while he was the Mayor of Burlington as argument against his being a socialist an inane non sequitur. It is not in a mayor's power to "nationalize" anything. Anymore than Steve King not instituting racial segregation in Iowa as a Senator disproves the fact that he is a colossal reactionary racist.

You do realize that we taxpayers are on the hook right this minute for that very thing courtesy of Trump's farmer bailout, yes?
Sorry Felis, we may have made some klutzy mistakes in judgment in the distant past, but not all of it was directly as a result of the New Deal in and of itself but rather due to the way that some in Congress attempted to apply it.
Oh?? Some in Congress possibly distorted a few things this or that direction? Oh wow...not like that EVER happens in conservative times?
Puuhhh-leeze. Don't portray us as if we believe we are gods.

We just want to figure out a way to harness the good things in capitalism to give the working stiffs a square deal, but that doesn't mean that all of our lawmakers will suddenly transform into saints.

Howard Hughes was obsessed with cleanliness.

"Nothing's clean, Howard...but we do our best." (Ava Gardner)

images
 
Oh dear, you've not examined Bernie's long history. I suggest that you go back and take a long, hard look.

Oh dear, you believe that WSJ, VOX and NY Post are extreme right wing - publications! :lamo

Here's a hint: These publicans and web sites are considered to be mainstream. They were chosen quite purposefully for that reason.

As I posted, Bernie himself can allay these legitimate concerns, given his history, with a simple public statement clarifying the matter.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I said "right wing and extreme right wing." Sure, WSJ, VOX, and NY Post are not *extreme* right wing but some of the ones you quoted, are, like The Washington Examiner, The Federalist, The National Review, etc.

Oh wow, the right wing calls Bernie a Marxist. That surely proves that he is one. [Insert sarcasm here]

Look, I SHOWED you Bernie's statements clarifying the matter in my very Original Post. What part of (his words) "To me, socialism doesn't mean state ownership of everything, by any means" you don't understand???
 
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