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Sanders Blasts Russia for Reportedly Trying to Boost His Presidential Campaign

Unitedwestand13 said:
Do you really see no problem with a society were the strong and the smart trample upon those beneath them, flaunting their power and privilege instead of working to better society
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We have a pretty free society, one that lets people strive and achieve on their own merits. There are always challenges and systems to overcome, no matter what system is in place, but we do a pretty good job. Capitalism has been good for us and the entire world. Less people in the world live in poverty today than ever before. Further wage growth has recently increased more in the lower income brackets than in the upper ones.
 
ludin said:
so you are saying that people should be the slaves of others simply because they are more successful or they are smarter?

they guy that invents the next thing that saves peoples lives or improves the lives of someone else is benefitting society.
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People are already enslaved in the sense that the only ones with power are those with the wealth and influence to game the system
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
And yet capitalism still has not come up with a moral or ethical explanation as to why economic inequality persists in a capitalist society.
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That's easy. In a free system there will always be some that rise to the top. Those that are toppled from the top, and various movements in-between. The only system that would result in perfect parity would be one that would be murderously oppressive.
 
Fishking said:
Yes...honeymooning in Soviet Russia, having parties there, and supporting their ideology is definitely meaningful. That you don't think it is says something. So far as businesses in Russia, the Trump org has businesses all over the world. Trump has been very pro-business in his policies and nothing about his policies has helped Russia to our detriment. Bernie wants to turn us into Russia, but not just Russia but the USSR of old.
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Trump hid his business deal from the American public for the entirety of the 2016 election campaign. He lied directly to the American people and said, “I have no business deals with Russia.”
 
Fishking said:
That's easy. In a free system there will always be some that rise to the top. Those that are toppled from the top, and various movements in-between. The only system that would result in perfect parity would be one that would be murderously oppressive.
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Every one should be able to rise to the top, because everyone has the same desire for freedom.

The fact that a “top” exists at all creates a hierarchical system that by its very nature is oppressive
 
Fishking said:
Bernie Sanders Has Stuck To The Same Message For 40 Years : NPR
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But not a word from you about Trump bringing his first wife to Russia in 1983.

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Donald and Ivana Trump in St. Petersburg, Russia.
 
Leftists gladly helping Russians create chaos in my country and now we have Russians helping Comrade BS.

Sounds just like leftists colluding with Russians. They're guilty of what they accuse others of doing. Damn cultists. :)
 
Cardinal said:
Trump hid his business deal from the American public for the entirety of the 2016 election campaign. He lied directly to the American people and said, “I have no business deals with Russia.”
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I think you have your facts mixed up. He didn't lie at all. There was, in fact, no business deals with Russia. There was an attempt at some business deals but they did not materialize.
 
Fishking said:
I think you have your facts mixed up. He didn't lie at all. There was, in fact, no business deals with Russia. There was an attempt at some business deals but they did not materialize.
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Not only did he lie to the American people about the Trump tower deal, but his campaign also met in secret with GRU officials to discuss giving the campaign dirt on his political opponent. He lied to the American people about that as well.

How meaningful is that compared to openly honeymooning in Russia?
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Every one should be able to rise to the top, because everyone has the same desire for freedom.

The fact that a “top” exists at all creates a hierarchical system that by its very nature is oppressive
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Uhhh…"everyone cannot rise to the top". That's literally not a thing that exists anywhere, unless you have a murderous level of oppression. Your mentality would have silly things exist like putting weights on the backs of fast sprinters to they are as slow as the slowest runner. There'd be no purpose for the Olympics or any sporting competition. We don't bemoan the top athletes' skills, we celebrate them.

Your mentality is that which would stifle innovation and expertise, because why would someone work hard to become an expert in a challenging field, or build a company if they were going to have the same economic results as someone who dropped out of high school.

There's literally no way for your mentality to exist outside of oppression. You want to put weights on the backs of everyone in their respective fields to such a level that they would be bowed to the ground. And if they step outside of that oppressive system and try and keep some of the fruits of their labor to themselves? Ah...that's where the murder comes in.

Hierarchy is not inherently bad. You have to demonstrate that it's hierarchy + [insert negative variable here] that is bad, and then we work to address [negative variable].
 
Fishking said:
Uhhh…"everyone cannot rise to the top". That's literally not a thing that exists anywhere, unless you have a murderous level of oppression. Your mentality would have silly things exist like putting weights on the backs of fast sprinters to they are as slow as the slowest runner. There'd be no purpose for the Olympics or any sporting competition. We don't bemoan the top athletes' skills, we celebrate them.

Your mentality is that which would stifle innovation and expertise, because why would someone work hard to become an expert in a challenging field, or build a company if they were going to have the same economic results as someone who dropped out of high school.

There's literally no way for your mentality to exist outside of oppression. You want to put weights on the backs of everyone in their respective fields to such a level that they would be bowed to the ground. And if they step outside of that oppressive system and try and keep some of the fruits of their labor to themselves? Ah...that's where the murder comes in.

Hierarchy is not inherently bad. You have to demonstrate that it's hierarchy + [insert negative variable here] that is bad, and then we work to address [negative variable].
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What about putting human innovation and talent to work for the greater good of human society? Shouldn’t progress Be made with all of humanity benefiting? If all of humanity is able to succeed we should all be able to benefit.
 
Comrade BS is an obvious KGB sleeper agent and Putin's puppet. And anything that helps Comrade BS get elected is a-okay with the kooker left.

"The ends justifies the means."
 
Rogue Valley said:
But not a word from you about Trump bringing his first wife to Russia in 1983.

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Donald and Ivana Trump in St. Petersburg, Russia.
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The Russians probably first created a dossier on Donald Trump in 1977 when he married Czech citizen Ivana Zelnickova. For the trip to Russia above, Trump was invited by the Soviet Ambassador to the US Yuri Dubinin. Dubinin made all the arrangements using the travel agency Intourist, which was owned by the KGB. In Moscow the Trumps stayed in Lenin’s suite at the National Hotel on Tverskaya Street near Red Square. At the time it was well known by Western intelligence agencies that the Lenin suite was bugged by the KGB. The National Hotel was linked by a corridor to the Intourist headquarters next door. There are also few doubts that Czechoslovakia’s Státní bezpečnost (StB) intelligence service surveiled and bugged the Trumps on their trip to that country to visit Ivana's family in 1989. US officials felt at the time that Ivana's father was working for the StB.

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Czech StB intelligence files on Ivana Trump (nee Zelnickova)
 
If Sanders wins and it's proven that Russian meddling tipped the balance in his favor, will he resign?
 
Cardinal said:
Not only did he lie to the American people about the Trump tower deal, but his campaign also met in secret with GRU officials to discuss giving the campaign dirt on his political opponent. He lied to the American people about that as well.

How meaningful is that compared to openly honeymooning in Russia?
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It's like you read the words, but you don't understand the words. There was no deal. It didn't happen. I'm more than happy for you to produce evidence otherwise. Please show me the construction being done to build a Trump tower.
 
Fishking said:
It's like you read the words, but you don't understand the words. There was no deal. It didn't happen. I'm more than happy for you to produce evidence otherwise. Please show me the construction being done to build a Trump tower.
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So not only did he lie about an ongoing business deal in Moscow, and not only did his campaign meet with GRU officials to get dirt on his political opponent, but he also met with Russian diplomats to brag about firing Comey to end the investigation into himself, giving top secret Israeli information to them in the process thereby causing Israeli to cease a sensitive operation, leading to the Israel no longer sharing important information with the United States.

How meaningful is that compared to openly honeymooning in Russia?
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
What about putting human innovation and talent to work for the greater good of human society? Shouldn’t progress Be made with all of humanity benefiting? If all of humanity is able to succeed we should all be able to benefit.
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1. That will not happen in your dynamic. Never has and never will. The only thing that will happen in your system is the oppression of those who are able to excel.

2. There is nothing unethical or wrong with working hard and reaping the benefits of that work. In fact, that is the very nature of how things get done the best. Again, capitalism has improved the lives, and reduced poverty, more than any other force to ever exist in the world. Conversely, systems like yours, the system of communism, has done nothing but to make people more poor and to live miserably under systems of oppression to boot.
 
Fishking said:
Rings a bit hollow coming from someone who honeymooned in Soviet Russia and used to have drunken parties there.
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While Trump's inaction and lack of condemnation rings true.

That's what makes Trump so great. He is honestly corrupt. Got to love that honesty.
 
Cardinal said:
So not only did he lie about an ongoing business deal in Moscow, and not only did his campaign meet with GRU officials to get dirt on his political opponent, but he also met with Russian diplomats to brag about firing Comey to end the investigation into himself, giving top secret Israeli information to them in the process thereby causing Israeli to cease a sensitive operation, leading to the Israel no longer sharing important information with the United States.

How meaningful is that compared to openly honeymooning in Russia?
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There was no business deal. It didn't happen. Again, produce evidence of a Trump tower being built or go away.
 
Cardinal said:
So not only did he lie about an ongoing business deal in Moscow, and not only did his campaign meet with GRU officials to get dirt on his political opponent, but he also met with Russian diplomats to brag about firing Comey to end the investigation into himself, giving top secret Israeli information to them in the process thereby causing Israeli to cease a sensitive operation, leading to the Israel no longer sharing important information with the United States.

How meaningful is that compared to openly honeymooning in Russia?
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That didn't happen...lol
 
j brown's body said:
While Trump's inaction and lack of condemnation rings true.

That's what makes Trump so great. He is honestly corrupt. Got to love that honesty.
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You mean aside from a great economy, addressing China's economic thefts and cheating the system, and not starting new wars/toppling governments?
 
j brown's body said:
While Trump's inaction and lack of condemnation rings true.

That's what makes Trump so great. He is honestly corrupt. Got to love that honesty.
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Who was president in 2016?
 
Fishking said:
1. That will not happen in your dynamic. Never has and never will. The only thing that will happen in your system is the oppression of those who are able to excel.

2. There is nothing unethical or wrong with working hard and reaping the benefits of that work. In fact, that is the very nature of how things get done the best. Again, capitalism has improved the lives, and reduced poverty, more than any other force to ever exist in the world. Conversely, systems like yours, the system of communism, has done nothing but to make people more poor and to live miserably under systems of oppression to boot.
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The benefits of capitalism have been spread through society by the welfare state. Its called a mixed economy. Exampkes include the GI Bill, subsidies for health insurance, mortgage deductions. The list goes on.
 
Fishking said:
1. That will not happen in your dynamic. Never has and never will. The only thing that will happen in your system is the oppression of those who are able to excel.

2. There is nothing unethical or wrong with working hard and reaping the benefits of that work. In fact, that is the very nature of how things get done the best. Again, capitalism has improved the lives, and reduced poverty, more than any other force to ever exist in the world. Conversely, systems like yours, the system of communism, has done nothing but to make people more poor and to live miserably under systems of oppression to boot.
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Nothing is wrong with working hard, but success, prosperity, and happiness should be available to everyone and not be denied on the basis of economic class, ethnicity, religion.

And I am talking about the social obligation that comes with economic success. Those who are successful have an obligation to help others be successful.

What society is suffering from is excessive self-interest
 
Fishking said:
Rings a bit hollow coming from someone who honeymooned in Soviet Russia and used to have drunken parties there.
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This could be the most pathetic whataboutism ever on this forum. How many years ago was that? Has he tried to open any hotels in Moscow since????
 
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