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How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

Best chance of winning isn't what the officials are concerned with. Their corrupt loyalties and who benefits them is what they're concerned with. They'd prefer a corporatist like Hillary who loses over a progressive populist like Bernie who wins, and costs their wealthy donors money with his policies that benefit the public.

Here is the reality: those officials are the people Bernie needs to work with in order to secure the nomination and possibly win the election. The establishment won’t stand aside because they are personally concerned about what’s at stake. Do you expect the party establishment to simply stand aside?
 
Not to mention Putin who will scour his Soviet archives for dirt on Sanders. There is a reason that Trump wants to face Bernie and I am still hoping we won't find that out.

Sanders’s digital brown shirts are now reduced to calling Real Democrats LIARs and the worst enemies of this Nation. Apparently we’re worse than the trumpistanis.

Let’s not forget how Bernie’s Bolsheviks treated Sen. Warren after she declared for Hillary in 2016. If she doesn’t catch fire before the end of March, I expect Warren to declare for Sanders.
 
Poster said, "See, it's because my ultimate goal is not to select candidate X or candidate Y in the Dem primaries. My ultimate goal is to beat Trump in November." Unless poster is a Trump fan that is insane.

Three of the latest national polls show Bernie ahead by 12,11, and 12 points. Are the Democrats foolish enough to nominate an Independent socialist as their candidate? Bernie is not a Democrat. He is seeking the Democratic nomination while fighting the Democratic leadership.

That leads one to believe a vote for Bernie is a vote for rebellion, a vote for a revolution.

The vast majority of Americans are in no mood for rebellion. That was tried in 2016 when Trump, the unconventional newcomer, challenged party leadership. The result was a disaster. Americans are not looking for revolution. They simply want to rid themselves of Trump.

That won't happen. 63 million Americans voted for Trump. They haven't gone away, and they certainly won't vote for a socialist. So, if the Democrats are foolish enough to nominate Bernie, they are already 63 million votes in the hole.

Then there are conservative Independents like me. As of December 2019, Gallup polling found that 28% of Americans identified as Democrat, 28% identified as Republican, and 41% as Independent. If Bernie is nominated, the Democrats can kiss the Independent vote away, too.

Then there the Democrats. There are a huge number of Democrats who are moderate or conservative. The Democratic Party can kiss those votes away as well.

Who does support Bernie? The 18 to 30 crowd, most without a college education, and the worst voting block in the country.

Nominating Bernie insures another four years of Trump. Good Lord, that can't happen!

Oh, yeah, the poster was a Trump fan, alright.

Look, fellow, you joined in January 2020. I've been here talking consistently against Trump since at least early 2016, and you go and say that I'm a Trump supporter? Yeah, right. :roll:

So, the Independents (I am one) are against Bernie? Mind you, that's exactly the opposite of what polls show. Among independents only, Bernie beats Trump by 18% margin, and that's the highest one among all candidates. Polls show that Independents support Bernie in higher percentage than even Democrats support Bernie. These stats were all posted here in this very thread, with links.

Yes, the people who voted for Trump aren't going away. That's why we need a bigger turnout in 2020 as opposed to 2016, when a lot of people sat out due to disliking Hillary.

The candidate most likely to generate this turnout is Bernie. That's one of the reasons why I've joined Bernie. He is the best bet to beat Trump, and that's what Trump has now understood; he has said he prefers to run against Bloomberg than against Bernie.
 
Look, fellow, you joined in January 2020. I've been here talking consistently against Trump since at least early 2016, and you go and say that I'm a Trump supporter? Yeah, right. :roll:

So, the Independents (I am one) are against Bernie? Mind you, that's exactly the opposite of what polls show. Among independents only, Bernie beats Trump by 18% margin, and that's the highest one among all candidates. Polls show that Independents support Bernie in higher percentage than even Democrats support Bernie. These stats were all posted here in this very thread, with links.

Yes, the people who voted for Trump aren't going away. That's why we need a bigger turnout in 2020 as opposed to 2016, when a lot of people sat out due to disliking Hillary.

The candidate most likely to generate this turnout is Bernie. That's one of the reasons why I've joined Bernie. He is the best bet to beat Trump, and that's what Trump has now understood; he has said he prefers to run against Bloomberg than against Bernie.

Trump himself has said that Bernie was the one with the best chance of beating him in 2016....nothing has changed on that.

The nation is seething....maybe a Bernie/Donald election is just what we need....two outsiders with drastically different opinions on where to go....both of them intent on giving The Failed Intelligentsia a much needed Tune-Up.
 
Again, what part of 70% of Americans now support Medicare For All you don't understand??? Do you have a problem with reading comprehension???

You can find polls that suggest support, you can find polls that suggest opposition. In the real world, this theoretical invisible support has simply not materialized when it's been needed.

Not when it's signed into law, as in Vermont ("Costs derail Vermont’s dream of a single-payer health plan").

Not when it's on the ballot, as in Colorado ("Colorado Overwhelmingly Votes Against Single Payer Health Care Proposition").

Not when the legislature takes it up with an apparently friendly governor, as in California ("California’s $400-Billion Single-payer Bill Tabled for the Year").

Not when it's long been favored and pushed by a key committee chairman, as in New York ("Lawmakers face an uphill climb on single-payer in 2020").

Not when candidates are running for Congress on it ("Medicare for All a Vote Loser in 2018 U.S. House Elections".

I know proponents believe very, very strongly that everyone is clamoring for it. But there's zero evidence to believe that. And a lot of painful evidence to the contrary.
 
Nor do I like it when delusional never-Bernie zealots like Linc repeatedly call me a Trump supporter and a fake Democrat.

Michelle Obama said it best: "When they go low, we go high."

In-fighting is not helpful. It is best to keep a level head and argue the point.

That's how YOU convinced ME, right?

At first, I was as insulting against Bernie and his followers as these two, Linc and Sandy Shanks. You countered it by using sound and civil argumentation, and you prevailed.

Maybe you should try the same strategy with them.

I confess that iguanaman drives me crazy. What I dislike is when I show links and updated data, and he ignores it all and keeps repeating the outdated information. I wonder if he even reads the links I give him.

Still, I'm trying to refrain from insulting him, and like in a recent post, I'm just politely inviting him to look closer, and to join us.
 
You can find polls that suggest support, you can find polls that suggest opposition. In the real world, this theoretical invisible support has simply not materialized when it's been needed.

Not when it's signed into law, as in Vermont ("Costs derail Vermont’s dream of a single-payer health plan").

Not when it's on the ballot, as in Colorado ("Colorado Overwhelmingly Votes Against Single Payer Health Care Proposition").

Not when the legislature takes it up with an apparently friendly governor, as in California ("California’s $400-Billion Single-payer Bill Tabled for the Year").

Not when it's long been favored and pushed by a key committee chairman, as in New York ("Lawmakers face an uphill climb on single-payer in 2020").

Not when candidates are running for Congress on it ("Medicare for All a Vote Loser in 2018 U.S. House Elections".

I know proponents believe very, very strongly that everyone is clamoring for it. But there's zero evidence to believe that. And a lot of painful evidence to the contrary.

I think things are changing as people start to understand the concept better.

Did you see the post in which I mentioned the millions of people for whom Medicare For All will be advantageous? Maybe they are starting to get it.

But yes, it will be an uphill battle. It won't be easy to implement. Maybe even impossible (I said as much in my very OP, here). I still think it's worth trying.
 
Nor do I like it when delusional never-Bernie zealots like Linc repeatedly call me a Trump supporter and a fake Democrat.

I see you’re too cowardly to say ‘delusional’ to my face, Surrealistik. That’s what I expect from projecting Bernie Bolshevik Behavior, calling me and Real Democrats ‘never-Bernie zealots’.

Your posting behavior on DP since you came on in ‘Dec. 2015’ has done nothing but divide anti-trump voters. If you are a bernie supporter, you have done far more harm than good.
 
Lies. Bernie supporters will vote for the Democratic nominee, which is what Bernie also supports. But you are quiet about Hillary's PUMAs.



Lies. The party is already divided, Bernie's not dividing it, he's representing the better side of the divide; he has no 'communist history'.





Sanders spokeswoman: Trump's attacks show 'no leadership' | TheHill



Ya, the only Democratic candidate who has run as an independent for Congress, who got two independent voters for everyone one for Hillary, he'll lose the independents, guaranteeing and expanding not only their healthcare, but everyone's.

I'll repeat - people like you are among the worst enemies of the country, fighting the best candidate.

You want another 2016 with a corporatist who loses.

Not a communist? A simple search finds otherwise. Get used to this because it is all you will hear 24/7 if Bernie get's the nomination and I am sure Putin has much more in his archives. You are helping elect Trump again and it is shameful.



 
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I see you’re too cowardly to say ‘delusional’ to my face, Surrealistik. That’s what I expect from projecting Bernie Bolshevik Behavior, calling me and Real Democrats ‘never-Bernie zealots’.

Your posting behavior on DP since you came on in ‘Dec. 2015’ has done nothing but divide anti-trump voters. If you are a bernie supporter, you have done far more harm than good.

Wrong as we can clearly see:

I've been a Sanders man since he launched back in 2015, so how about you step the **** off you delusional know-nothing?

I don't have any qualms about calling you what you are, to your face or otherwise.

Also you are demonstrably a never-Bernie zealot.
 
Michelle Obama said it best: "When they go low, we go high."

In-fighting is not helpful. It is best to keep a level head and argue the point.

That's how YOU convinced ME, right?

At first, I was as insulting against Bernie and his followers as these two, Linc and Sandy Shanks. You countered it by using sound and civil argumentation, and you prevailed.

Maybe you should try the same strategy with them.

I confess that iguanaman drives me crazy. What I dislike is when I show links and updated data, and he ignores it all and keeps repeating the outdated information. I wonder if he even reads the links I give him.

Still, I'm trying to refrain from insulting him, and like in a recent post, I'm just politely inviting him to look closer, and to join us.

Iguanaman is bad certainly, but Linc is truly hopeless per what I've seen thus far; he rarely if ever tries to source his arguments/assertions, and outright refuses to acknowledge facts contrary to his beliefs, while smearing people baselessly and consistently. He's as bad as some of the very worst Trump supporters on these forums with respect to his ad hominems and steadfast denial of reality.
 
I think things are changing as people start to understand the concept better.

Did you see the post in which I mentioned the millions of people for whom Medicare For All will be advantageous? Maybe they are starting to get it.

But yes, it will be an uphill battle. It won't be easy to implement. Maybe even impossible (I said as much in my very OP, here). I still think it's worth trying.

Don’t expect Bernie’s health care plans to win back your state of N.C., let alone any of the other southern states in play; AZ, TX, GA, FL. You’ll be kissing CO and NV good-bye also, along with both Senate races.

None of the five Midwest states trump flipped are coming back, and MN will be lost. Senate seats in MN and MI are now in danger with bernie leading the ticket. The GOP will actually GAIN Senate seats.

The House could easily be lost, since the 43 seats flipped in 2018 were all moderate, not the bernie type. State legislatures will be crushed for another decade in REDMAP 2020. At this point, I have to question how much of a Democrat you really are.
 
I think things are changing as people start to understand the concept better.

Based on what? That if you don't present any counterarguments many people in opinion polls will respond positively to the concept of having everything and no longer having to pay for any of it? Alas, elections don't work like that. There will be counterarguments.

And even in overwhelmingly blue states, when the rubber meets the road for implementation or the legislative process or the initiative process, the groundswell simply isn't there. If a state ever shows it can implement single-payer and get better results than Massachusetts has gotten with its model, that will turn some heads.
 
More lies.

Those video's sure look and sound like Bernie. Are you saying they are faked? I'm pretty sure they are real and that there are more of them. We can just wait until he is nominated to find out just how many more. There are sure some nice "sound bites" in some of them don't you think? Don't get me wrong though I will vote for him and I am in a swing state. Things do not look good here in Florida for Sanders in Nov. I'm afraid.

RealClearPolitics - Election 2020 - Florida: Trump vs. Sanders

Biden still does better here. Just saying.

RealClearPolitics - Election 2020 - Florida: Trump vs. Biden
 
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Based on what? That if you don't present any counterarguments many people in opinion polls will respond positively to the concept of having everything and no longer having to pay for any of it? Alas, elections don't work like that. There will be counterarguments.

And even in overwhelmingly blue states, when the rubber meets the road for implementation or the legislative process or the initiative process, the groundswell simply isn't there. If a state ever shows it can implement single-payer and get better results than Massachusetts has gotten with its model, that will turn some heads.

If only Anthony Rendon didn't immediately and without deliberation or hesitation of any kind spike the SP plan that was being put together in California ASAP, huh?

Second, why does it have to succeed specifically in a state when it has already succeeded admirably in a variety of countries?

Third, while polls don't by themselves encompass the ultimate tenability of an idea in the public consciousness, they at least inform you where you can expect the needle to begin, and how much of an uphill battle it will be to persuade or dissuade the public. Most of the arguments against are unconvincing, and if met in debate with the argument for, generally crumble to nothing, particularly given all credible plans feature a phase in over time. The single most substantive and durable argument against MFA would probably be the vulnerability of the rollout to special interest sabotage or subversion, but the risk is even greater in a hybrid system where private insurers are kept intact as a powerful interest bloc.
 
I'm back from early voting. My state is a Super Tuesday one and early voting is open; I have a day off from work today so I went ahead and got there, and cast my ballot.

After months agonizing about this, and despite not really being a Sanders fan, I voted for Sanders after all.


I started my comments here this election cycle by calling Sanders a moron, a hypocrite, divisive, vacuously populist, opportunistic, partially responsible for Trump's win, ineffective, with pies-in-the-sky ideas, and called his followers hopelessly naive and arrogant. I said that in my limited capacity of being just one citizen, one vote, one common Joe, I'd still try to do all I could to try and prevent Sanders from winning the Dem nomination, and speaking against him here was part of this effort.

And I ended up voting for him. :shock:

I did it for several reasons, not exactly because I like him more than any other candidate.

I also stopped worrying about moderates being alienated by Sanders and sitting out. You know, first of all, this is probably an exaggerated concern. The only people among moderates and independents who may come over to the Dem side are the anti-Trump folks, and those are almost guaranteed to prefer Sanders to Trump even if they don't particularly like Sanders. The moderates and independents who are for Trump won't come around and vote for any Dem, anyway. They are lost causes already.

Besides, Bernie's most radical ideas that spook moderates are not even likely to pass Congress, even if both houses get a Democratic supermajority, which is very unlikely anyway. If the Dems don't get both chambers and with a comfortable majority, then Sanders ideas won't pass anyway. It's not like America will turn "communist" (and I know, he is not communist) with widespread nationalizations and a Great Depression kind of Wall Street collapse if Sanders wins. Life will continue. Capitalism will survive.

Sanders regardless of what he does or doesn't do, or is not allowed to do (by means of congressional obstructionism), will still nominate judges and justices much more attentive to the rights of the citizens, in order to balance a bit the right-leaning courts that have been stuffed with people nominated by Trump who will be always more likely to find for the interests of corporations rather than the interests of the people.

Now, don't disappoint me, Senator Sanders!

I do hope that he picks a veep like Val Demings or Sherrod Brown or Stacey Abrams rather than one like Ayanna Presley or campaign insiders Nina Turner or Ro Khanna. He needs to show some ability to compromise and make concessions, and to reach out to the rest of the party beyond his circle of ultra-progressive people.


I'd prefer to see him pick someone to his right (even if still progressive) rather than an ideological twin. And if it's a youngish female of color, even better, because she will add some demographics to the ticket and enhance its support in November.

OK, so, Go Bernie!

I just hope that if he is not nominated, his followers will still vote Dem, as long as it is in a fair process.

I know you’re not a Sanders supporter, so I am surprised by this. I still agree with nearly all your points. Bernie wants Medicare for all, and others do, so negotiate with him. I hope, if elected, Congress would manage to pass sweeping healthcare reform, and real reform would occur. Have Medicare compete with private insurance, drastically expand Medicare, etc. there are a lot of ways to get there, and getting somewhere is better than what Trump promises.

I also think Bernie would be popular on SSN, expanding and saving SSN for generations like mine. I also believe him when he talks about student loan forgiveness. I like when he attacks corporate socialism.

I have no doubt, Bernie will fight for average people... crazy ideas or not... but he will fight. Trump will lie
 
If only Anthony Rendon didn't immediately and without deliberation or hesitation of any kind spike the SP plan that was being put together in California ASAP, huh?

Second, why does it have to succeed specifically in a state when it has already succeeded admirably in a variety of countries?

Third, while polls don't by themselves encompass the ultimate tenability of an idea in the public consciousness, they at least inform you where you can expect the needle to begin, and how much of an uphill battle it will be to persuade or dissuade the public. Most of the arguments against are unconvincing, and if met in debate with the argument for, generally crumble to nothing, particularly given all credible plans feature a phase in over time. The single most substantive and durable argument against MFA would probably be the vulnerability of the rollout to special interest sabotage or subversion, but the risk is even greater in a hybrid system where private insurers are kept intact as a powerful interest bloc.

Politics is about one’s ability to influence others to act together for a common goal.

Influence is the lifeblood of politics.
 
Here is the reality: those officials are the people Bernie needs to work with in order to secure the nomination and possibly win the election. The establishment won’t stand aside because they are personally concerned about what’s at stake. Do you expect the party establishment to simply stand aside?

No, they're not. Bernie needs voters, not officials. The officials are against Bernie until he's nominated, because of corruption. He doesn't need them to get nominated, and he has them when he is. I expect the establishment to oppose Bernie being nominated, and support Bernie against trump when he is.
 
Politics is about one’s ability to influence others to act together for a common goal.

Influence is the lifeblood of politics.

Sure; what's your point though?

Mine is that MFA is at minimum a tenable position, and given healthcare is the #1 issue in America, eclipsing even the economy, it is also very likely a strong and advantageous one going into the general so long as it is properly presented and defended against the disingenuous and typically vacuous attacks that Republicans (and many establishment minded Democrats) have tried to stack against it.
 
Some posters here helped me reach this conclusion and overcome my initial aversion to Bernie.

MovingPictures made me see that my preoccupation with alienating moderates was overblown, by demonstrating that the moderates who say "I don't like Trump but I can't vote for Bernie because I'm afraid that Medicare For All will dilute my Medicare benefits or I will have to pay higher taxes" are only paying lip service to "I don't like Trump." Make no mistake, these people WILL vote for Trump, even if the Dems nominate a more moderate candidate. They are lost causes.

Surrealistik held a long and strong debate with me that made me see Medicare For All in a better light, made me believe more that it can be funded after all, and reassured me about some statistical discrepancies in the report of Sander's list of donors.

Cardinal made me see that being divisive and speaking here against Bernie is only helping Trump. He was also instrumental in easing my catastrophic thoughts that "it's all doomed, no Dem can defeat Trump anyway."

Even Winston with whom I clashed more, made me see that even the people who endorse(d) a Bernie or Bust approach, can be reasonable and can ultimately commit to backing another Dem nominee if that person is not Bernie. I was reassured to see that Winston, someone I thought would sit out if Bernie doesn't win the Dem nomination, said that he will pinch his nose and vote for the Dem nominee against Trump. So even if one of the more extremist Bernie fans here can avoid being divisive, I need to avoid it too.

The best thought of all, is seeing a Jew replace them. :lol:
 
Those video's sure look and sound like Bernie. Are you saying they are faked? I'm pretty sure they are real and that there are more of them. We can just wait until he is nominated to find out just how many more. There are sure some nice "sound bites" in some of them don't you think? Don't get me wrong though I will vote for him and I am in a swing state.

No, I'm saying they don't show Bernie is a communisty.

Things do not look good here in Florida for Sanders in Nov. I'm afraid.

I don't disagree with you that Bernie will have a hard time in Florida. That's ok. He'll bring out the younger voters who care about the right things, and usually don't vote, among others.
 
No, they're not. Bernie needs voters, not officials. The officials are against Bernie until he's nominated, because of corruption. He doesn't need them to get nominated, and he has them when he is. I expect the establishment to oppose Bernie being nominated, and support Bernie against trump when he is.

That’s only if Bernie secures the nomination outright with a majority of voters.

If no one is the clear frontrunner by the time of the convention, it will become a contested convention.

Then the party will decide who is to be the nominee.
 
That’s only if Bernie secures the nomination outright with a majority of voters.

If no one is the clear frontrunner by the time of the convention, it will become a contested convention.

Then the party will decide who is to be the nominee.

And they've promised over and over to nominate the person who has won the most votes/delegates.
 
Sure; what's your point though?

Mine is that MFA is at minimum a tenable position, and given healthcare is the #1 issue in America, eclipsing even the economy, it is also very likely a strong and advantageous one going into the general so long as it is properly presented and defended against the disingenuous and typically vacuous attacks that Republicans (and many establishment minded Democrats) have tried to stack against it.


I am arguing that Bernie Sanders has had no influence among the party establishment.
 
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