How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

I'm back from early voting. My state is a Super Tuesday one and early voting is open; I have a day off from work today so I went ahead and got there, and cast my ballot.

After months agonizing about this, and despite not really being a Sanders fan, I voted for Sanders after all.

I started my comments here this election cycle by calling Sanders a moron, a hypocrite, divisive, vacuously populist, opportunistic, partially responsible for Trump's win, ineffective, with pies-in-the-sky ideas, and called his followers hopelessly naive and arrogant. I said that in my limited capacity of being just one citizen, one vote, one common Joe, I'd still try to do all I could to try and prevent Sanders from winning the Dem nomination, and speaking against him here was part of this effort.

And I ended up voting for him. :shock:

I did it for several reasons, not exactly because I like him more than any other candidate.

See, it's because my ultimate goal is not to select candidate X or candidate Y in the Dem primaries. My ultimate goal is to beat Trump in November.

I came to believe that Sanders is the candidate who can generate the most enthusiasm, the most turnout, and is maybe the only one who can be competitive (as long as he picks a good veep) and beat Trump (although it won't be easy - but I think all the others are even worse equipped to beat Trump). I also warmed up to his Medicare For All proposal, despite being against it in the past, and since health care is a big focus for me, it was a big motivator for my vote: maybe it is time after all for single payer in America, and no president will be as enthusiastic about it as Bernie Sanders, so, this may be the one decent shot at doing it (although I remain very skeptical that it can be done, and worried about unintended consequences and turmoil - but I guess we can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs).

I also stopped worrying about moderates being alienated by Sanders and sitting out. You know, first of all, this is probably an exaggerated concern. The only people among moderates and independents who may come over to the Dem side are the anti-Trump folks, and those are almost guaranteed to prefer Sanders to Trump even if they don't particularly like Sanders. The moderates and independents who are for Trump won't come around and vote for any Dem, anyway. They are lost causes already.

Besides, Bernie's most radical ideas that spook moderates are not even likely to pass Congress, even if both houses get a Democratic supermajority, which is very unlikely anyway. If the Dems don't get both chambers and with a comfortable majority, then Sanders ideas won't pass anyway. It's not like America will turn "communist" (and I know, he is not communist) with widespread nationalizations and a Great Depression kind of Wall Street collapse if Sanders wins. Life will continue. Capitalism will survive.

Sanders regardless of what he does or doesn't do, or is not allowed to do (by means of congressional obstructionism), will still nominate judges and justices much more attentive to the rights of the citizens, in order to balance a bit the right-leaning courts that have been stuffed with people nominated by Trump who will be always more likely to find for the interests of corporations rather than the interests of the people.

Now, don't disappoint me, Senator Sanders!

I do hope that he picks a veep like Val Demings or Sherrod Brown or Stacey Abrams rather than one like Ayanna Presley or campaign insiders Nina Turner or Ro Khanna. He needs to show some ability to compromise and make concessions, and to reach out to the rest of the party beyond his circle of ultra-progressive people.

I'd prefer to see him pick someone to his right (even if still progressive) rather than an ideological twin. And if it's a youngish female of color, even better, because she will add some demographics to the ticket and enhance its support in November.

OK, so, Go Bernie!

I just hope that if he is not nominated, his followers will still vote Dem, as long as it is in a fair process.

I don't know what the future holds, but I know that a lot of people are dramatically underestimating the power of generating hope. For some reason the "moderate" Democrats always try to feed us a down-the-middle candidate that inspires no one and often loses. You see Bloomberg and Biden as safe, but if 2016 taught us anything, normal rules and perspectives don't matter anymore, it's a different ballgame. The candidate we need is the person who can get the most people motivated and hopeful, and in that Sanders is the best choice, despite his vulnerabilities.

On a side note, he really, REALLY needs to pick a centrist candidate to balance the ticket, and it should probably be someone who's running. Hillary's big unforced error was refusing to unite the party and turning her back on progressives. A Sanders / Klobuchar ticket would unite the party and kick the rats out of the White House.

Well good for you.

RabidAlpaca said:

I don't know what the future holds, but I know that a lot of people are dramatically underestimating the power of generating hope. For some reason the "moderate" Democrats always try to feed us a down-the-middle candidate that inspires no one and often loses. You see Bloomberg and Biden as safe, but if 2016 taught us anything, normal rules and perspectives don't matter anymore, it's a different ballgame. The candidate we need is the person who can get the most people motivated and hopeful, and in that Sanders is the best choice, despite his vulnerabilities.

On a side note, he really, REALLY needs to pick a centrist candidate to balance the ticket, and it should probably be someone who's running. Hillary's big unforced error was refusing to unite the party and turning her back on progressives. A Sanders / Klobuchar ticket would unite the party and kick the rats out of the White House.

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Agreed.

And I don't see Biden and Bloomberg as safe. I see them as guaranteed to lose to Trump, because most Sanders fans won't vote for them. If we believe that at least 25% of the Dem electorate are very committed Bernie fans, these people will be disgusted if Biden wins the nomination with a sleight of hand, or if Bloomberg buys his way into the nomination. The Dem nominee can't beat Trump if 25% of the Dem electorate defects.

Sure, in 2016 only 10% of disappointed Bernie fans crossed over to the other side... but this time, I think a lot more of them would do it, and likely all of them would do it if Bloomberg wins in a brokered convention, despite not being the candidate with the most pledged delegates. Even I would not vote blue if this happened, let alone Bernie's fans.

I didn't include Sanders/Klobuchar because I thought Sanders wouldn't invite her, and would get someone else like one of the names I suggested. But yes, if he does invite her, his ticket will be much more successful in November.

this will be a good thread to revisit after the election.

I don't think he is electable and I am not sure he is temperamentally suited to that office, . Assuming he gets in, he'll be -well - okay. He does not scare me, and what he sells deserves a damn good hearing. He's more electable than Biden and certainly not repugnant to me like Bloomburg,.

GreatNews2night said:

I'm back from early voting. My state is a Super Tuesday one and early voting is open; I have a day off from work today so I went ahead and got there, and cast my ballot.

After months agonizing about this, and despite not really being a Sanders fan, I voted for Sanders after all.

I started my comments here this election cycle by calling Sanders a moron, a hypocrite, divisive, vacuously populist, opportunistic, partially responsible for Trump's win, ineffective, with pies-in-the-sky ideas, and called his followers hopelessly naive and arrogant. I said that in my limited capacity of being just one citizen, one vote, one common Joe, I'd still try to do all I could to try and prevent Sanders from winning the Dem nomination, and speaking against him here was part of this effort.

And I ended up voting for him. :shock:

I did it for several reasons, not exactly because I like him more than any other candidate.

See, it's because my ultimate goal is not to select candidate X or candidate Y in the Dem primaries. My ultimate goal is to beat Trump in November.

I came to believe that Sanders is the candidate who can generate the most enthusiasm, the most turnout, and is maybe the only one who can be competitive (as long as he picks a good veep) and beat Trump (although it won't be easy - but I think all the others are even worse equipped to beat Trump). I also warmed up to his Medicare For All proposal, despite being against it in the past, and since health care is a big focus for me, it was a big motivator for my vote: maybe it is time after all for single payer in America, and no president will be as enthusiastic about it as Bernie Sanders, so, this may be the one decent shot at doing it (although I remain very skeptical that it can be done, and worried about unintended consequences and turmoil - but I guess we can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs).

I also stopped worrying about moderates being alienated by Sanders and sitting out. You know, first of all, this is probably an exaggerated concern. The only people among moderates and independents who may come over to the Dem side are the anti-Trump folks, and those are almost guaranteed to prefer Sanders to Trump even if they don't particularly like Sanders. The moderates and independents who are for Trump won't come around and vote for any Dem, anyway. They are lost causes already.

Besides, Bernie's most radical ideas that spook moderates are not even likely to pass Congress, even if both houses get a Democratic supermajority, which is very unlikely anyway. If the Dems don't get both chambers and with a comfortable majority, then Sanders ideas won't pass anyway. It's not like America will turn "communist" (and I know, he is not communist) with widespread nationalizations and a Great Depression kind of Wall Street collapse if Sanders wins. Life will continue. Capitalism will survive.

Sanders regardless of what he does or doesn't do, or is not allowed to do (by means of congressional obstructionism), will still nominate judges and justices much more attentive to the rights of the citizens, in order to balance a bit the right-leaning courts that have been stuffed with people nominated by Trump who will be always more likely to find for the interests of corporations rather than the interests of the people.

Now, don't disappoint me, Senator Sanders!

I do hope that he picks a veep like Val Demings or Sherrod Brown or Stacey Abrams rather than one like Ayanna Presley or campaign insiders Nina Turner or Ro Khanna. He needs to show some ability to compromise and make concessions, and to reach out to the rest of the party beyond his circle of ultra-progressive people.

I'd prefer to see him pick someone to his right (even if still progressive) rather than an ideological twin. And if it's a youngish female of color, even better, because she will add some demographics to the ticket and enhance its support in November.

OK, so, Go Bernie!

I just hope that if he is not nominated, his followers will still vote Dem, as long as it is in a fair process.

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Ah, you are now a Bernie bro!

I won't vote for him in the primary, and if he is the candidate, I WILL vote for him.

I hope you will vote for the Dem candidate if it is not Bernie.

Some posters here helped me reach this conclusion and overcome my initial aversion to Bernie.

MovingPictures made me see that my preoccupation with alienating moderates was overblown, by demonstrating that the moderates who say "I don't like Trump but I can't vote for Bernie because I'm afraid that Medicare For All will dilute my Medicare benefits or I will have to pay higher taxes" are only paying lip service to "I don't like Trump." Make no mistake, these people WILL vote for Trump, even if the Dems nominate a more moderate candidate. They are lost causes.

Surrealistik held a long and strong debate with me that made me see Medicare For All in a better light, made me believe more that it can be funded after all, and reassured me about some statistical discrepancies in the report of Sander's list of donors.

Cardinal made me see that being divisive and speaking here against Bernie is only helping Trump. He was also instrumental in easing my catastrophic thoughts that "it's all doomed, no Dem can defeat Trump anyway."

Even Winston with whom I clashed more, made me see that even the people who endorse(d) a Bernie or Bust approach, can be reasonable and can ultimately commit to backing another Dem nominee if that person is not Bernie. I was reassured to see that Winston, someone I thought would sit out if Bernie doesn't win the Dem nomination, said that he will pinch his nose and vote for the Dem nominee against Trump. So even if one of the more extremist Bernie fans here can avoid being divisive, I need to avoid it too.

jamesbyoung said:

Ah, you are now a Bernie bro!

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OH NO!!!! :shock: :doh [GN2N runs around and hits his head on the wall]

LOL

I hope you will vote for the Dem candidate if it is not Bernie.

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Of course I will! Look at my signature! Didn't I just say that my main goal is to beat Trump?

RabidAlpaca said:

I don't know what the future holds, but I know that a lot of people are dramatically underestimating the power of generating hope. For some reason the "moderate" Democrats always try to feed us a down-the-middle candidate that inspires no one and often loses. You see Bloomberg and Biden as safe, but if 2016 taught us anything, normal rules and perspectives don't matter anymore, it's a different ballgame. The candidate we need is the person who can get the most people motivated and hopeful, and in that Sanders is the best choice, despite his vulnerabilities.

On a side note, he really, REALLY needs to pick a centrist candidate to balance the ticket, and it should probably be someone who's running. Hillary's big unforced error was refusing to unite the party and turning her back on progressives. A Sanders / Klobuchar ticket would unite the party and kick the rats out of the White House.

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Really? So Trump's pick is the one that will beat him? There is something fishy about that. I think we would be better off with the candidate Trump fears most instead.

CaughtInThe said:

this will be a good thread to revisit after the election.

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Oh yeah. That's why I said "Now, don't disappoint me, Senator Sanders!"

If Bernie wins the nomination but behaves in an arrogant way and picks as veep another ultra-progressive, shunning the more moderate Dems, and then goes on to lose to Trump in November, I'll be very angry, and frankly will be embarrassed and guilty regarding the choice I've just made. Not that just my one vote is that decisive, but by stopping my efforts to convince others to NOT vote for Bernie, and from now on actually turning my attention to convincing people to vote FOR Bernie, maybe my decision will net a few more votes for Sanders.

For one thing, I'll try to convince my wife and my son who aren't too hot about voting for Bernie, to change their minds like I did. My daughter has already declared that she will vote for Bernie and she reached this conclusion before me.

Still, I'm not ready to jump into a HUGE effort to support Bernie, like maximizing donations, canvassing door to door, manning phone lines. I guess that would be too much for my hesitant support. In a way, beyond close family and friends, I'm not ready yet to advocate for what I've just decided. I guess I'm afraid of feeling too responsible, if this choice turns out to be a disaster in November. So, I'm saying, OK, I voted for Bernie, let me see if I get my wife and son to do it too and some close friends, but beyond this, let's let the dice fall where they may.

Now, AFTER the primaries are over, yes, I intend to donate and volunteer for whoever wins. We. Must. Beat. Trump.

Only an idiot would vote for someone on the logic that candidate can't do what the candidate promises to do anyway.

But that is the Sander's campaign claims now:

1. Sanders is a pathological liar. They claim that Sanders is NOT a socialist and for over half a century he has been a pathological liar saying he is and

2. He won't or can't do anything he promises anyway.

So... the reason you should vote for Sanders is everything he says about himself and what he is going to do all are lies and always have been.

Seriously, only the most gullible idiots possibly in existence would vote for the candidate whose campaign is "believe me when I tell you everything I ever said and ever say is a lie. Vote for me."

iguanaman said:

Really? So Trump's pick is the one that will beat him? There is something fishy about that. I think we would be better off with the candidate Trump fears most instead.

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You know, the Hillary campaign tried to prop up Trump at the time of the GOP primaries, thinking that he would be the easiest one to beat. We saw how that turned out. These calculations can come back to bite ya. People including Trump and the GOP may be underestimating Bernie's capacity to be competitive in November. Again, especially if he picks his veep well, in the figure of a more moderate and solid politician, Bernie may be a force more formidable than Trump is expecting.

Because, yes, they will say "do you want this good economy we got going now, or do you want to junk it and go with commie Bernie who will destroy it?" But then, they'd make economy-related threats against any Dem nominee (might have more trouble making that claim if it is Bloomberg, but Bloomberg is less competitive than Bernie in November, for other reasons; not least, the fact that I can't see any Bernie fan voting for Bloomberg in November and there aren't enough Dem moderates to win the election on their own).

So, all this talk about "a socialist can't win" remains to be seen.

As of now, most polls show advantage Bernie in direct head-to-head match-up with Trump.

iguanaman, a Bloomberg/Klobuchar, a Sanders/Klobuchar, and Buttigieg/Klobuchar and so forth is going to beat Trump.

GreatNews2night said:

You know, the Hillary campaign tried to prop up Trump at the time of the GOP primaries, thinking that he would be the easiest one to beat. We saw how that turned out. These calculations can come back to bite ya. People including Trump and the GOP may be underestimating Bernie's capacity to be competitive in November. Again, especially if he picks his veep well, in the figure of a more moderate and solid politician, Bernie may be a force more formidable than Trump is expecting.

Because, yes, they will say "do you want this good economy we got going now, or do you want to junk it and go with commie Bernie who will destroy it?" But then, they'd make economy-related threats against any Dem nominee (might have more trouble making that claim if it is Bloomberg, but Bloomberg is less competitive than Bernie in November, for other reasons; not least, the fact that I can't see any Bernie fan voting for Bloomberg in November and there aren't enough Dem moderates to win the election on their own).

So, all this talk about "a socialist can't win" remains to be seen.

As of now, most polls show advantage Bernie in direct head-to-head match-up with Trump.

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What if Trump knows something we do not about Bernie and that is why he wants him to be the nominee? Trump cannot be trusted and Bernie has a long history...longer than Hillary's.

joko104 said:

Only an idiot would vote for someone on the logic that candidate can't do what the candidate promises to do anyway.

But that is the Sander's campaign claims now:

1. Sanders is a pathological liar. They claim that Sanders is NOT a socialist and for over half a century he has been a pathological liar saying he is and

2. He won't or can't do anything he promises anyway.

So... the reason you should vote for Sanders is everything he says about himself and what he is going to do all are lies and always have been.

Seriously, only the most gullible idiots possibly in existence would vote for the candidate whose campaign is "believe me when I tell you everything I ever said and ever say is a lie. Vote for me."

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That irony doesn't escape me. I posted something very similar here. It's somewhere buried in my posting history, I won't be able to find it now, but I said something to the effect that "moderates shouldn't fear Bernie's policies so much because they won't pass Congress, although it is very weird to basically be saying "hey, vote for me, see all my ideas? They are a bit scarier but don't worry, they will never pass."" LOL

So, it's not like I'm a gullible idiot. I know. And I've known it before you brought attention to it. You can check my posting history and find it there if you're curious (although it would be very time consuming to find the specific post, but I swear, it is there).

It's more, like I said, because I think the other Dem candidates are EVEN LESS LIKELY to beat Trump, each one for a different reason.

Bloomberg: won't ever win without Bernie's 25% of steady supporters on the left side; can't see any Bernie fan voting for him, can't win a general election which is always close, without one quarter of the Dem field. If the party establishment bets on him they will be making a colossal mistake.

Buttigieg: won't ever win without the support of minorities and I can't imagine in fly-over bigoted states people will vote for a gay candidate. His initial good showing is probably just a flash in a pan because he invested more heavily in Iowa and NH than anywhere else; I expect him to fizzle rapidly

Warren: imploding campaign, bad campaign strategist, made already a number of unenforced errors, appears phony and fake and in this regard is not liked and is seen as Hillary 2.0

Biden: he's the Jeb Bush of 2020, low energy, more than half-demented, some disastrous bad moments in debates and campaign trail, imploding campaign, appears mentally and physically unable to take on the heat of a long general election campaign.

Klobuchar: the least bad one of the above bunch, and might even grow and surprise everybody, and yes, she was on my short list, up to this morning I was still debating within myself if I'd vote for Bernie or for her; still, she is kind of bland and amorphous. She doesn't seem to strongly stand for anything. I doubt she can generate a lot of turnout. That's why I ended up dropping her too.

This leaves us Bernie, good or bad.

So I decided to forget my numerous objections to him, and go with him.

Now, beware of what you right wing folks wish. Bernie + a very good veep may very well surprise you in November. Alone (meaning, if he picks as veep someone who is his ideological twin), I don't think he can do it, but if he picks a more moderate veep that adds other demographics to his ticket, beware. Normally the veep doesn't decide elections, but in this atypical one, it could happen.

jamesbyoung said:

iguanaman, a Bloomberg/Klobuchar, a Sanders/Klobuchar, and Buttigieg/Klobuchar and so forth is going to beat Trump.

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I disagree about a Bloomber / Klobuchar. Picking Bloomberg will kill the Dem ticket. It's political suicide, because it is likely that it can only happen in a brokered convention. Because, see, Bernie does NOT travel on the same lane, so if Bloomberg grows, he won't stop Bernie from continuing to collect delegates (remember, the Dems allocate delegates proportionally in all states, there is no winner takes all). He will stop Biden and Klobuchar and Buttigieg who are on the same lane, but not Bernie (and once Warren drops out which seems inevitable, Bernie will pick up some of her support too, although Klobuchar might pick up another chunk of ti). Therefore, we may end up in a situation in which neither Bernie nor Bloomberg achieves a majority of delegates for the first ballot in the convention. This means that Bloomberg can only win if superdelegates support him in second ballot. But if this happens, the ENTIRE bloc of Bernie fans will drop out claiming that he bought his way in with his money, and they hate billionaires anyway, so they will either vote Trump out of spite, or sit out, or vote third party. This will kill any possibility of Bloomberg beating Trump.

Yes, Sanders/Klobuchar could win in November.

Buttigieg/Klobuchar, I just feel that it is an impossible hypothetical ticket because Buttigieg will fade before it comes to that. He will lose badly in all states that have significant African American population. Blacks won't forgive him for siding with South Bend police chiefs against the black community there. His support with blacks is virtually zero. He can't win the nomination without blacks. For Buttigieg, the only way to win the nomination is if he gets a VERY prominent black politician to endorse him and campaign for him - I'm talking Barack Obama-grade - and another prominent black politician to indicate he/she'll be his veep, like Stacey Abrams or Cory Booker. The problem for Buttigieg is that he'd need that done before Super Tuesday (which allocates 41% of the delegates) and Super Tuesday is around the corner. If he loses disastrously on Super Tuesday, he is toast.

I observed an interesting thing last election cycle which was that before Hillary secured the nomination most of the millennials at my work place were solidly in favor of Bernie Sanders. But when he dropped out they then transferred their allegiance to the Donald Trump candidacy. What this seems to tell me is that many Americans are tired of the establishment and willing to fold their hand and wait for a fresh deal.

iguanaman said:

What if Trump knows something we do not about Bernie and that is why he wants him to be the nominee? Trump cannot be trusted and Bernie has a long history...longer than Hillary's.

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I'd think that by now, this would have surfaced already. We all know what Bernie's skeletons are... supporting the Sandinists, honey-mooning in the Soviet Union, making some strange sexualized remarks about married women and teen girls, his wife's embezzlement accusation, having mentioned nationalization of the electricity sector, having proposed convicted felons having voting rights, etc.

But the issue is, although these things are already known, he continues to go strong.

And come on, in the matter of sound bites and disgusting past stances and statements, our liar-in-chief has more than anybody, right? So it's not like the Sanders campaign will be unable to counter-attack when the right wing starts attacking him.

Some other October surprise? I doubt. Bernie has been around in politics for 4 decades... anything major would have been known already.

Court Jester said:

I observed an interesting thing last election cycle which was that before Hillary secured the nomination most of the millennials at my work place were solidly in favor of Bernie Sanders. But when he dropped out they then transferred their allegiance to the Donald Trump candidacy. What this seems to tell me is that many Americans are tired of the establishment and willing to fold their hand and wait for a fresh deal.

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I know. It's one of the reasons I decided to go with Bernie. Other Dems are likely to support Bernie against Trump, but Bernie supporters are unlikely to support other non-Bernie candidates against Trump. So, the ONLY way for the party not to fracture, is to go with Bernie. This is sad because in a sense, a minority of people are hijacking the party (and they are a minority; if you add all the moderate votes and poll responses for Bloomberg, Biden, Klobuchar, and Buttigieg, they are more numerous than Bernie + Warren + Yang, the more progressive side), but it is the sad reality. Any other nominee, the party will fracture, and if the party fractures, it won't win in November.

I'm very pragmatic. Like I said in my OP, my goal is to beat Trump, so I must go with the option that won't fracture the party, even if it means I'm bowing to the hijacking.

GreatNews2night said:

Agreed.

And I don't see Biden and Bloomberg as safe. I see them as guaranteed to lose to Trump, because most Sanders fans won't vote for them. If we believe that at least 25% of the Dem electorate are very committed Bernie fans, these people will be disgusted if Biden wins the nomination with a sleight of hand, or if Bloomberg buys his way into the nomination. The Dem nominee can't beat Trump if 25% of the Dem electorate defects.

Sure, in 2016 only 10% of disappointed Bernie fans crossed over to the other side... but this time, I think a lot more of them would do it, and likely all of them would do it if Bloomberg wins in a brokered convention, despite not being the candidate with the most pledged delegates. Even I would not vote blue if this happened, let alone Bernie's fans.

I didn't include Sanders/Klobuchar because I thought Sanders wouldn't invite her, and would get someone else like one of the names I suggested. But yes, if he does invite her, his ticket will be much more successful in November.

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You are 100% right about Bernie supporters not voting for Bloomberg. The same **** that appeals to Republicans does not appeal to the Democratic base. What is the blue collar average worker in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan that is struggling going to think about a billionaire vs. a fake billionaire in the election? They will label it plutocratic and rigged either way and will stay home, guaranteed.

iguanaman said:

Really? So Trump's pick is the one that will beat him? There is something fishy about that. I think we would be better off with the candidate Trump fears most instead.

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This is what I'm talking about, you keep pushing Bloomberg, who will turn off a LOT of the Democratic base and is the only person I won't vote for. Fighting swamp with swamp is not a winning strategy.

Elizabeth Warren is *so* toast!

I just saw a piece of info: according to exit polls in New Hampshire, people aged 18 to 29 went for her at a 6% rate while they went for Sanders at 51% and 20% for Buttigieg.

btthegreat said:

I don't think he is electable

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Which is why he's beat trump in practically every poll for five years. But for you: Hillary 2020! Electable!

jamesbyoung said:

I hope you will vote for the Dem candidate if it is not Bernie.

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You're wrong on Bernie, but we Bernie supporters will vote for the Democratic nominee, and glad you will also.

Bloomberg can easily handle Trump, and with Klobuchar or Mayor Pete or Warren or whomever, the Dems will accept an "anybody but Trump."