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Thread: How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

  1. #41
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    Re: How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    ...See, it's because my ultimate goal is not to select candidate X or candidate Y in the Dem primaries. My ultimate goal is to beat Trump in November...

    ...I also warmed up to his Medicare For All proposal, despite being against it in the past, and since health care is a big focus for me, it was a big motivator for my vote...
    If your ultimate goal is beating Il Duce, why the focus on healthcare? Doesn't that come second, third, or? Besides, polls show very little support for Medicare for all. Just ask Warren who backtracked on it.

    ...Besides, Bernie's most radical ideas that spook moderates are not even likely to pass Congress, even if both houses get a Democratic supermajority, which is very unlikely anyway. If the Dems don't get both chambers and with a comfortable majority, then Sanders ideas won't pass anyway. It's not like America will turn "communist" (and I know, he is not communist) with widespread nationalizations and a Great Depression kind of Wall Street collapse if Sanders wins. Life will continue. Capitalism will survive...

    ...I just hope that if he is not nominated, his followers will still vote Dem, as long as it is in a fair process.
    I agree that his most radical proposals would never pass Congress, but the vast majority of moderates won't give that any thought. The only thing they'll hear and remember are his most radical proposals, period. He calls himself a democratic socialist. Which part of that name will people hear and focus on? America won't be electing a 'socialist' (I know he's not), anytime soon.

    When dealing with an obviously corrupt leader and his cult, who lie, cheat, and are out to win a all costs, I hope our high standards of propriety won't result in four more years of our dictator wannabe destroying everything America stands for...
    Last edited by SoCal; 02-17-20 at 07:53 PM.
    LET THEM EAT CAKE - NATIONALIZE NOW!

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    Re: How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig234 View Post
    The Foolish talk is thinking Bloomberg's ads are enough, not Bernie's army and revolutionary policies the country wants and needs. Bloomberg is likely Jeb Bush 2.0. He's not what the country needs, and is a surrender to the war on big money buying elections. Ya, we need another wealthy New York Wall Street figure. Worked great in 2016.
    Bloomberg's ads and memes are already enraging Trump as he realizes that America increasingly laughing at his Trumpian foolishness. Your arguments, Craig, are silliness embodied, but don't worry, for your hatred and fear are going to grow immensely over the next few months.
    Russian trolls and their supporters go on Ignore, automatically: no second chance.

    Dr. Fauci suggests strongly that drinking alcohol helps to surviveTrump's briefings on the Coronavirus.

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    Re: How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

    Quote Originally Posted by SoCal View Post
    If your ultimate goal is beating Il Duce, why the focus on healthcare? Doesn't that come second, third, or? Besides, polls show very little support for Medicare for all. Just ask Warren who backtracked on it. I agree that his most radical proposals would never pass Congress, but the vast majority of moderates won't give that any thought. The only thing they'll hear and remember are his most radical proposals, period. He calls himself a democratic socialist. Which part of that name will people hear and focus on? merica won't be electing a 'socialist' (I know he's not), anytime soon. When dealing with an obviously corrupt leader and his cult, who lie, cheat, and are out to win a all costs, I hope our high standards of propriety won't result in four more years of our dictator wannabe destroying everything America stands for...
    The moderates, SoCal, will be giggling at such arguments as yours while the vote Democratic. Not to worry: your hatred and rage at what is going to happen will increase immensely, so immensely, over the next months as you see Defeat slouch forward to gobble you up.
    Russian trolls and their supporters go on Ignore, automatically: no second chance.

    Dr. Fauci suggests strongly that drinking alcohol helps to surviveTrump's briefings on the Coronavirus.

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    Re: How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Vegas oddsmakers now consider Biden as the least likely of all major candidates to be able to beat Trump.

    Can a Democrat beat Trump in November? Las Vegas predicts 2020 election results | Fox Business
    Any Democrat can beat Trump. He is the least popular President in the history of polls. The one Trump is most afraid of is Biden. That makes me want him more.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
    - Voltaire

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    Re: How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I don't know what the future holds, but I know that a lot of people are dramatically underestimating the power of generating hope. For some reason the "moderate" Democrats always try to feed us a down-the-middle candidate that inspires no one and often loses. You see Bloomberg and Biden as safe, but if 2016 taught us anything, normal rules and perspectives don't matter anymore, it's a different ballgame. The candidate we need is the person who can get the most people motivated and hopeful, and in that Sanders is the best choice, despite his vulnerabilities.

    On a side note, he really, REALLY needs to pick a centrist candidate to balance the ticket, and it should probably be someone who's running. Hillary's big unforced error was refusing to unite the party and turning her back on progressives. A Sanders / Klobuchar ticket would unite the party and kick the rats out of the White House.

    I don't know which candidate stands the best chance against Trump. It's way too early to tell. According to RCP averages, the main candidates for the nomination all lead Trump from 1-6 points. Sanders is in the middle. Perhaps the best reason for nominating Sanders is to keep his supporters voting democratic. In 2016 Hillary won the democratic base vote, 89-8 over Trump with 3% voting third party. Sanders supporters did vote for Hillary, but by a 75-12 margin over Trump with a whopping 13% voting third party.

    Bernie Sanders Voters Helped Trump Win and Here's Proof

    Who knows how many stayed home like my grand daughter did. Very angry at the DNC and Democratic State party leaders rigging the primaries in Hillary's favor. Sanders after all is an independent running for the Democratic nomination. One last thing, if one looks at the favorable/unfavorable ratings of all the Democratic candidates, all are under water when it comes to the independent voter, the non-affiliated voter. Meaning their unfavorable's are higher than their favorable's which make it hard to use them in a predictable manner. Of course Trump is in the same category, higher unfavorable rating than favorable among independents.

    Both Trump and Clinton had much higher unfavorable's than favorable's which caused 12% of independents to vote for third party against both. Some 9 million voters. The same very well could happen again in 2020. Questions 10 and 11

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne...bReport_lv.pdf

    You can compare the major candidates favorable and unfavorable below. 2016 was a unique year in which both major party candidates set the record for the lowest favorable's and highest unfavorable's ever or since Gallup and Pew Research started keeping track of these things. So which candidate would do the best against Trump. That is for the democrats to figure out.

    Highest to lowest favorable/unfavorable ratings of each major party presidential candidate.
    Favorable/unfavorable
    1956 Eisenhower 84/12%
    1964 LBJ 81/13%
    1976 Carter 81/16%
    1960 JFK 80/14%
    1960 Nixon 79/16%
    1968 Nixon 79/22%
    1976 Ford 79/20%
    1972 Nixon 76/21%
    1968 Humphrey 72/28%
    1984 Reagan 71/30%
    1980 Carter 68/32%
    1984 Mondale 66/34%
    1980 Reagan 64/31%
    1992 Bill Clinton 64/33%
    2008 Obama 62/35%
    2012 Obama 62/37%
    1956 Stevenson 61/31%
    2004 G.W. Bush 61/39%
    2008 McCain 60/35%
    1992 G.H.W. Bush 59/40%
    2000 G.W. Bush 58/38%
    2004 Kerry 57/40%
    1996 Bill Clinton 56/42%
    1988 G.H.W. Bush 56/39%
    2000 Gore 55/45%
    2012 Romney 55/43%
    1972 McGovern 55/41%
    1996 Dole 54/45%
    1988 Dukakis 50/45%
    1964 Goldwater 43/47%
    2016 Hillary Clinton 38/56%
    2016 Donald Trump 36/60%
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig234 View Post
    Which is why he's beat trump in practically every poll for five years. But for you: Hillary 2020! Electable!
    I have literally never cast a single vote for Hillary Clinton and only once for Bill. My gut told me that election was not the time for a traditional establishment candidate. Too close to the Great Recession. The republicans have done everything but turn Sanders into a saint so that they can have him splitting the dems apart for as long as possible. That means he will poll better than Trump with independents, until the GOP begins the barrage.

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    Re: How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    I'm back from early voting. My state is a Super Tuesday one and early voting is open; I have a day off from work today so I went ahead and got there, and cast my ballot.

    After months agonizing about this, and despite not really being a Sanders fan, I voted for Sanders after all.


    I started my comments here this election cycle by calling Sanders a moron, a hypocrite, divisive, vacuously populist, opportunistic, partially responsible for Trump's win, ineffective, with pies-in-the-sky ideas, and called his followers hopelessly naive and arrogant. I said that in my limited capacity of being just one citizen, one vote, one common Joe, I'd still try to do all I could to try and prevent Sanders from winning the Dem nomination, and speaking against him here was part of this effort.

    And I ended up voting for him.

    I did it for several reasons, not exactly because I like him more than any other candidate.

    See, it's because my ultimate goal is not to select candidate X or candidate Y in the Dem primaries. My ultimate goal is to beat Trump in November.

    I came to believe that Sanders is the candidate who can generate the most enthusiasm, the most turnout, and is maybe the only one who can be competitive (as long as he picks a good veep) and beat Trump (although it won't be easy - but I think all the others are even worse equipped to beat Trump). I also warmed up to his Medicare For All proposal, despite being against it in the past, and since health care is a big focus for me, it was a big motivator for my vote: maybe it is time after all for single payer in America, and no president will be as enthusiastic about it as Bernie Sanders, so, this may be the one decent shot at doing it (although I remain very skeptical that it can be done, and worried about unintended consequences and turmoil - but I guess we can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs).

    I also stopped worrying about moderates being alienated by Sanders and sitting out. You know, first of all, this is probably an exaggerated concern. The only people among moderates and independents who may come over to the Dem side are the anti-Trump folks, and those are almost guaranteed to prefer Sanders to Trump even if they don't particularly like Sanders. The moderates and independents who are for Trump won't come around and vote for any Dem, anyway. They are lost causes already.

    Besides, Bernie's most radical ideas that spook moderates are not even likely to pass Congress, even if both houses get a Democratic supermajority, which is very unlikely anyway. If the Dems don't get both chambers and with a comfortable majority, then Sanders ideas won't pass anyway. It's not like America will turn "communist" (and I know, he is not communist) with widespread nationalizations and a Great Depression kind of Wall Street collapse if Sanders wins. Life will continue. Capitalism will survive.

    Sanders regardless of what he does or doesn't do, or is not allowed to do (by means of congressional obstructionism), will still nominate judges and justices much more attentive to the rights of the citizens, in order to balance a bit the right-leaning courts that have been stuffed with people nominated by Trump who will be always more likely to find for the interests of corporations rather than the interests of the people.

    Now, don't disappoint me, Senator Sanders!

    I do hope that he picks a veep like Val Demings or Sherrod Brown or Stacey Abrams rather than one like Ayanna Presley or campaign insiders Nina Turner or Ro Khanna. He needs to show some ability to compromise and make concessions, and to reach out to the rest of the party beyond his circle of ultra-progressive people.


    I'd prefer to see him pick someone to his right (even if still progressive) rather than an ideological twin. And if it's a youngish female of color, even better, because she will add some demographics to the ticket and enhance its support in November.

    OK, so, Go Bernie!

    I just hope that if he is not nominated, his followers will still vote Dem, as long as it is in a fair process.
    I don't agree with your decision, but I can respect how you made it. May the best Democrat get the nomination, and let's vote out King Donald in November!
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  8. #48
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    Re: How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

    Quote Originally Posted by SoCal View Post
    If your ultimate goal is beating Il Duce, why the focus on healthcare? Doesn't that come second, third, or? Besides, polls show very little support for Medicare for all. Just ask Warren who backtracked on it.

    I agree that his most radical proposals would never pass Congress, but the vast majority of moderates won't give that any thought. The only thing they'll hear and remember are his most radical proposals, period. He calls himself a democratic socialist. Which part of that name will people hear and focus on? America won't be electing a 'socialist' (I know he's not), anytime soon.

    When dealing with an obviously corrupt leader and his cult, who lie, cheat, and are out to win a all costs, I hope our high standards of propriety won't result in four more years of our dictator wannabe destroying everything America stands for...
    My focus on healthcare are for reasons that I will not share right now (another poster here does know them, by Private Message) for the sake of privacy, sorry. It does come second. Like I said, my first priority is beating Trump, but my second priority is health care, which is why I mentioned that beating Trump is my *ultimate* goal but I *also* care for health care - notice that I didn't put it on the same level. Ultimate is ultimate. No tie. So yes, with my choice of words I made it clear that it takes second place to beating Trump. My focus on health care still makes it a close second and a very important political priority for me, regardless of how popular or unpopular Medicare For All is.

    I firmly believe that if it is unpopular, it is because people haven't experienced the advantages of a well-oiled European-style universal payer system. I have experienced it, by virtue of having lived, studied, and worked in Europe for several years, and by virtue of some medical issues that happened there affecting my wife, my son, and myself - all three got state-of-the-art care and all three were restored to full health for a cost of a round zero, efficiently and fast. Other Americans who have not had this experience may be prejudiced against European-style single payer systems, thinking of rationing of care like in the British system (the country where I lived has a MUCH better system than the British one, as confirmed by numerous rankings). So, I believe that our fellow Americans just don't know what they are missing. With more explanations and demonstrations the idea will grow more palatable. Still, I'm aware that it will be very difficult to implement or maybe even impossible, given that it will face contrary winds by powerful lobbies and court challenges. But we should try. It's worth it.

    Yes, Bernie will be accused of being a crazy socialist who will destroy America's economy. But you know, in ALL elections, after the primaries, the nominee veers a bit to the center. Bernie is very consistent in his views and unlikely to budge as much, but at least he may be able to explain his ideas a little, make them sound less scary, and acknowledge that he will need to try to implement them slowly, not abruptly. By the way, one of the reasons I like Bernie better in his MFA all proposal as compared to Warren's, is that the latter committed the huge blunder of clearly lying about it by saying that she will fix health care by the 90th day of her term... which is utterly and absolutely impossible and ridiculous, dishonest, and a big fat lie, while Bernie did say that it will take years of transition.

    If America will or will not elect a socialist anytime soon, remains to be seen. Remember, all polls continue to show Bernie ahead of Trump in their match up. Still, going just by polls is not all and I am aware that beating Trump will be extremely difficult, but we must try.

    And sure, all candidates have vulnerabilities... and one of Sanders' is the fear of socialism... but like I said in a previous post, I believe that other candidates have even bigger vulnerabilities and are even less likely to beat Trump, for different reasons. So far, Nate Silver gives Bernie the best odds, and Las Vegas gives him the second best (they have Bloomberg as first but I think they are wrong about that, for reasons I spelled out in previous posts).

    So, you know, polls and statistical models are not really showing that Bernie can't be elected. And if he picks a more moderate veep, he will reassure a lot of people.
    Please take COVID-19 seriously; don't panic but don't deny it; practice social distancing (stay 6ft from people); wash your hands a lot, don't touch your face, don't gather with too many people, so that you help us contain it. It's not a concern just for the elderly. If we allow our health care system to be overwhelmed, all age groups who might need all other care will suffer.

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    Re: How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesbyoung View Post
    Bloomberg's ads and memes are already enraging Trump as he realizes that America increasingly laughing at his Trumpian foolishness. Your arguments, Craig, are silliness embodied, but don't worry, for your hatred and fear are going to grow immensely over the next few months.
    Let's not get divisive. We're doing Trump's job when we do.
    Please take COVID-19 seriously; don't panic but don't deny it; practice social distancing (stay 6ft from people); wash your hands a lot, don't touch your face, don't gather with too many people, so that you help us contain it. It's not a concern just for the elderly. If we allow our health care system to be overwhelmed, all age groups who might need all other care will suffer.

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    Re: How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Any Democrat can beat Trump. He is the least popular President in the history of polls. The one Trump is most afraid of is Biden. That makes me want him more.
    Like I showed you with the most recent statements by Trump, it seems like he is switching to being most afraid of Bernie and to desiring Bloomberg. Biden is falling apart, iguanaman, and all statistical models are now predicting that he will be the least competitive of them all. You seem to be stopped in time, and not noticing the sharp deterioration in Biden's campaign and chances. You need an update, my friend.

    Have you realized that this is Biden's third try after having failed twice, and even when he was a lot younger and sharper, he NEVER finished above 3rd in any state or territory? That is an impressive losing record. And then, the first two contests, same thing. As of now in three presidential runs Bernie has never placed better than 3rd in ANY state.

    I don't know why people initially overestimated Biden so much. I guess it was name recognition. But it's becoming clearer and clearer that he won't succeed.

    Now, if you still like him best, by all means, vote for him, but when he loses the contest, please do vote for whoever the nominee is, in November.
    Please take COVID-19 seriously; don't panic but don't deny it; practice social distancing (stay 6ft from people); wash your hands a lot, don't touch your face, don't gather with too many people, so that you help us contain it. It's not a concern just for the elderly. If we allow our health care system to be overwhelmed, all age groups who might need all other care will suffer.

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