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The logic behind right wing capitalism.

ataraxia said:
Again, my apologies for misunderstanding your position. It just seems there are these posts extolling the virtues of capitalism, and telling us how it is the engine which drives the economy, as if there are leftists around who want to get rid of capitalism altogether. Talk about attacking a strawman. I am just pointing out that almost all "leftists" just want some decent and human regulations and safeguards on unbridled capitalism.

Hey, maybe our positions are not that far apart after all- after all is said and done.

So, in trying to understand you better, tell me if you agree or disagree with the following statement:

Capitalism works best with some basic regulations and safeguards.
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I have never argued otherwise. The OP is not discussing capitalism but the value of labor.

The value of labor is subject to a few forces.

1. Skills and knowledge
2. market demand
3. your ability to market yourself

Someone that has a degree in computer science and can program in ansible and Java and python etc will have much
better high paying jobs than someone who can only put items from a box on a shelf.

someone that has a liberal arts degree is going to have a hard time finding a job outside of academics.
 
vanceen said:
That's because capitalism depends on a competitive free market and informed consumers with choices.

Without regulation, people can and do conspire to make markets un-free and remove choices from consumers. Monopolies, price-fixing, bribery, etc. are examples of these anti-competitive, anti-free choice schemes. That's why they are illegal.

When these kinds of abuses are implemented, it is no longer capitalism. Government regulation is essential to maintaining an environment where capitalism can work.

Was anyone arguing for completely unregulated capitalism?
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In a complete free market, people hit recession, hard times, and unemployment as well. Are you OK with letting a 4-year-old with recently diagnosed leukemia and a dad that just got laid off work just die on the street?
 
ludin said:
I have never argued otherwise. The OP is not discussing capitalism but the value of labor.

The value of labor is subject to a few forces.

1. Skills and knowledge
2. market demand
3. your ability to market yourself
Click to expand...

No one is arguing otherwise. Talk about strawmen!

Someone that has a degree in computer science and can program in ansible and Java and python etc will have much
better high paying jobs than someone who can only put items from a box on a shelf.
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OK, agreed on that too.

someone that has a liberal arts degree is going to have a hard time finding a job outside of academics.
Click to expand...

Now that's a common, and incorrect, myth.
Why employers value a liberal arts degree - Study International
 
ataraxia said:
Those guys do much, much better than those without any degrees. So it's not THAT useless. Many of those actually go on to medical school, law school, medical school, graduate school, business MBAs, etc... and do just fine.
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So they don't just have a liberal arts degree thanks for confirming what i said. :doh
 
jbander said:
Show me the logic that says higher wages for the worker will get rid of the product or service being sold. If the Minimum wage was 50 cents an hour people like you would be still arguing with the same nonsense post. Tell me why in the hell should I have to pay for what is needed for a family to keep a roof over their head and food on their table. Tell me why the tax payer has to pay for everything over a minimum wage that with two working still isn't enough to achieve this . These pigs sucking off the government so they can increase their bottom line should be outlawed. Screw your type of corporate welfare capitalism
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The logic is the cost to bring it to market.

We cannot compete with imports, without dissembling the free trade president Clinton got us into.
 
ludin said:
So they don't just have a liberal arts degree thanks for confirming what i said. :doh
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Before interference in the free market, such as minimum wage laws, workplace safety laws, and child labor laws, you had ever-increasing exploitation of child labor by the robber barons. Kids as young as 8 were working 80 hour weeks with dangerous equipment and chemicals, and they still didn't have enough to eat. Their bosses, on the other hand, were working a few days a month and making more than the GDP of entire nations. That all went away once some basic, common-sense regulations and laws were put in place.

Would you like to get rid of them now?
 
ataraxia said:
Before interference in the free market, such as minimum wage laws, workplace safety laws, and child labor laws, you had ever-increasing exploitation of child labor by the robber barons. Kids as young as 8 were working 80 hour weeks with dangerous equipment and chemicals, and they still didn't have enough to eat. Their bosses, on the other hand, were working a few days a month and making more than the GDP of entire nations. That all went away once some basic, common-sense regulations and laws were put in place.

Would you like to get rid of them now?
Click to expand...

your strawman is blowing away again you better go get it fast.
do you actually have any argument to anything i said?

i guess not this is like the 5th or 6th time you have posting something that has absolutely 0 to do with anything i said.
 
ludin said:
your strawman is blowing away again you better go get it fast.
do you actually have any argument to anything i said?

i guess not this is like the 5th or 6th time you have posting something that has absolutely 0 to do with anything i said.
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You were arguing against minimum wage (as in the OP)- or at least that was my understanding.

I was just pointing out how things worked before stuff like minimum wage.

If you are OK with the idea of minimum wage, and your only argument is HOW MUCH minimum wage should be, that's a very specific argument and you will not get any arguments from me.
 
ataraxia said:
In a complete free market, people hit recession, hard times, and unemployment as well. Are you OK with letting a 4-year-old with recently diagnosed leukemia and a dad that just got laid off work just die on the street?
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I find that to be a bizarre response to what I posted. Perhaps you can explain what it is in my post that caused you to ask this question.

Recognizing that regulation is necessary for capitalism to work is not the same as saying that a free market meets every need of human beings. Competitive free markets are very good at allocating resources efficiently, but they take time to create equilibria. There are times when people can't wait for equilibrium to come around, for example when sick or unemployed.

You seem to be looking for a fight. I don't know why.
 
jbander said:
Show me the logic that says higher wages for the worker will get rid of the product or service being sold. If the Minimum wage was 50 cents an hour people like you would be still arguing with the same nonsense post. Tell me why in the hell should I have to pay for what is needed for a family to keep a roof over their head and food on their table. Tell me why the tax payer has to pay for everything over a minimum wage that with two working still isn't enough to achieve this . These pigs sucking off the government so they can increase their bottom line should be outlawed. Screw your type of corporate welfare capitalism
Click to expand...

Truth be told, folks that identify as "very liberal" are immune to logic; their chief motivation is LW mantras, feel good blather, and talking points. Your post perfectly illustrates this.
 
ludin said:
it is hard to explain capitalism to someone that doesn't even understand what it is or what it means.
Capitalism is simply a method of delivering goods or services to a market. Capitalism depends on free markets where ideas, goods and services can be bought and sold.

So basically what you are arguing is the value of labor. Well the value of labor is dependent on the skill of the job.
The higher the skill level and more complicated the job the more money those with that skill can demand. The more people that are capable of doing the job
the lower the pay for that job is. it is basically the laws of supply vs demand.

Not everyone can prepare and set a 5 course meal properly. That is why a head chef gets paid more than the guy that flips a burger.
there are several things that affect wages and it depends on the job.

If i own an IT company and i hire people to fix peoples computers or repair peoples cracked or broken screens i can afford to pay more
per hour. If those same people are handling companies IT infrastructure then i can pay them more. Why? because I can charge the client
80-100 bucks per hour for their labor.

Now if i own a burger joint where i have to compete with 500 other burger joints and they are all selling burgers for 5 dollars then i have to
set my wages based on that. There are far more people that i can find to cook burgers than to properly repair and troubleshoot computers.

when it comes to business your income always has to exceed what you pay out. which means that your wages are always less than what you make.
it is the only way a business can survive.

Since you feel so passionately about it i suggest starting your own company pay everyone no matter what they do 15-20 bucks and hour and see
how long you can keep your business going.

when you realize that you have 10 people work a shift and they are working 8 hours and your pay is 1600 for that day plus another 800 or more
for taxes and insurance. you will realize that your 5 dollar burger is not enough money to keep the lights on or people paid.

so you raise it to 10 dollars but now your lose people because most people aren't going to pay 10 dollars for burgers.

however i think you should put your own idea's to market. on top of that as the business owner you have to decide what your salary is going to be as well
as you have to pay your own things.
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Outstand post! You did a great job explaining a complicated concept in simple terms.
 
jbander said:
So you support the largest corporate welfare in this country. Evan Adam Smith the father of capitalism our first economist, said there are times when the market doesn't control wages that business does and that is bad. You think capitalism should be supported by corporate welfare. So whats your number $.50 cent a hour. No the market won't take care of this. I'm apposed to this type of capitalism. For the last 40 years every new dollar of wealth in this country went to the golden few at the top. That was done because of right wing capitalism and taxes.
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Do you understand that with the booming economy of the last three years wages are being driven upward? That's how capitalism works; as businesses grow and profit the demand for labor increases and workers can demand higher wages. In fact, wages for the lowest level have increased more, percentagewise, than for those further up the ladder.
 
ataraxia said:
This line of thinking was shown to not work back in the late 19th/early 20th century, with ever-increasing exploitation of child labor, political and economic instability in countries which did not have any safety nets for laid off/unemployed workers, and the rise of monopolies and robber barons.

That's why no developed country in the world has pure capitalism anymore.
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This isn't the 19th century or even the early 20th. For the last several decades capitalism and free markets have dramatically improved the economic situation for billions of people. That DOESN'T mean everyone has got it made yet, but the levels of those living in abject poverty has declined dramatically.
 
Citizen said:
And this is what brought about the need for labor unions. Labor unions which brought about the 40 hour work week, paid vacations and paid sick leave. Things that the right takes for granted.
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And yet barely 6% of non-government workers belong to a union. Unions served their purpose when the focused on labor-management relations, today they get far too involved in unrelated political issues.
 
ataraxia said:
You were arguing against minimum wage (as in the OP)- or at least that was my understanding.

I was just pointing out how things worked before stuff like minimum wage.

If you are OK with the idea of minimum wage, and your only argument is HOW MUCH minimum wage should be, that's a very specific argument and you will not get any arguments from me.
Click to expand...

no where did mention minimum wage.
We were discussing the value of labor.

read the OP so that you can make somewhat of a response to the thread. it seems you have no clue what we are discussing.
 
ataraxia said:
There's no question capitalism drives the economy. But extensive experience, throughout history and throughout the world, has shown that unbridled capitalism is about as stable and useful as an unbridled wild horse.
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Nonsense.
 
Bullseye said:
Outstand post! You did a great job explaining a complicated concept in simple terms.
Click to expand...

Yet the person that it was posted too still didn't get it.
 
JackA said:
Facing up to harmful imbalances always involves making judgments which by definition are subjective. You can't run away from them without running away from responsible citizenship. It's also a subjective judgment of course not to face up to them.
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What "harmful imbalances"? Please, please, please don't trot out the ridiculous "income/wealth inequality" idiocy.
 
ataraxia said:
Again, my apologies for misunderstanding your position. It just seems there are these posts extolling the virtues of capitalism, and telling us how it is the engine which drives the economy, as if there are leftists around who want to get rid of capitalism altogether. Talk about attacking a strawman. I am just pointing out that almost all "leftists" just want some decent and human regulations and safeguards on unbridled capitalism.

Hey, maybe our positions are not that far apart after all- after all is said and done.

So, in trying to understand you better, tell me if you agree or disagree with the following statement:

Capitalism works best with some basic regulations and safeguards.
Click to expand...
Who's arguing against basic regulations and safeguards - you do understand that capitalism requires those too, right?
 
Bullseye said:
Nonsense.
Click to expand...

To be fair in order for capitalism to run efficiently and effectively it does need controls in place.
however the controls are not for capitalism itself but the people operating inside that system.

Think of it this way car companies put limiters on car engines for are reason. unless you are operating a manual
you will not blow your engine if you gun it. you can red line it but you cannot over rev your engine.

with some systems of control it would be like holding the clutch and flooring the motor.
sure it will speed off but then you will blow the motor.

capitalism doesn't need controls it is people that need controls.
 
ataraxia said:
In a complete free market, people hit recession, hard times, and unemployment as well. Are you OK with letting a 4-year-old with recently diagnosed leukemia and a dad that just got laid off work just die on the street?
Click to expand...

Nobody is arguing for a "complete free market". Please try and grasp that.
 
The logic is easy, greedy rich people dupe ignorant people to worship them while they take all the wealth and abuse the workers

There is no logic being right wingers beliefs in fantasy and fiction. Because its not true. Giving tax breaks to the rich just allows them to pocket that money, nothing more. Greedy people who already have most of the wealth, but that's not enough for these scumbags
 
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