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SHould we end "Citizens United" by the court or amendment?

The Constitution restrains government, not the people.

What the frig are you on about. What does that have to do with this discussion.

Are you claiming that the SC is not capable of erring?

Are you claiming that the Legislature can't wright an Amendment if it chooses and that it can't pass? Give me a break. Do you simply have to troll every thread aimlessly and nonsensically.
 
What the frig are you on about. What does that have to do with this discussion.

Are you claiming that the SC is not capable of erring?

Are you claiming that the Legislature can't wright an Amendment if it chooses and that it can't pass? Give me a break. Do you simply have to troll every thread aimlessly and nonsensically.

I'm pointing out that The Constitution limits the power of the government. It doesn't limit the rights of the people. IOW, you can't pass an amendment abridging free speech.

Are you claiming that the Legislature can't wright an Amendment if it chooses...

Not without 2/3 approval of the House and the Senate and 3/4 approval of the states it can't.
 
I'm pointing out that The Constitution limits the power of the government. It doesn't limit the rights of the people. IOW, you can't pass an amendment abridging free speech.

You can pass an Amendment that covers the largest and more idiotic aspect of CU, that being that a Corporation should enjoy the Rights and privileges of a Citizen.
 
You can pass an Amendment that covers the largest and more idiotic aspect of CU, that being that a Corporation should enjoy the Rights and privileges of a Citizen.

It would never pass.
 
It would never pass.

I bet it would since the Corporation v citizen aspect of the CU ruling are undoubtedly FLAWED.

And if it can't pass I guess you can just keep blissfully trolling this thread with meaningless keystrokes. That should make you happy.
 
You can pass an Amendment that covers the largest and more idiotic aspect of CU, that being that a Corporation should enjoy the Rights and privileges of a Citizen.
That really wasn't part of the CU decision. Corporate personhood wasn't the crux of the opinion.

The Constitution could certainly be amended to overturn the CU decision, but corporate personhood isn't really the issue, and addressing that wouldn't really change anything about CU (and it would mess up a lot of corporate law precedents).
 
I bet it would since the Corporation v citizen aspect of the CU ruling are undoubtedly FLAWED.

And if it can't pass I guess you can just keep blissfully trolling this thread with meaningless keystrokes. That should make you happy.

Non-profits and PAC's are considered corporations. There's no way you would ever get enough congress critters to go along with basically outlawing either of those.
 
That really wasn't part of the CU decision. Corporate personhood wasn't the crux of the opinion.

The Constitution could certainly be amended to overturn the CU decision, but corporate personhood isn't really the issue, and addressing that wouldn't really change anything about CU (and it would mess up a lot of corporate law precedents).

So Corp Law required modification before CU? Corporations were really struggling before that ruling weren't they. The ruling resulted in Corporations having the same 1st Amendment rights as citizens. Further the argument that many Media organizations were corporations was used as a justification when in fact a free press is assured in the Constitution. In other words, the fact that some Media organizations are corporations simply is a meaningless argument.

Corporations were designed to offer more protections than a citizen has with regard to civil tort especially. Corporations are inherently different from citizens though a corporation can in fact be a single citizen. Corporations do not have an inherent 1st Amendment right and it should be plainly obvious that corporations and citizens are not the same things in any respect. The Press and Corporations are not the same thing though it is plainly obvious that some media outlets are corporations.

Had corporations not been fashioned as a shield offering specific additional protections that a citizen does not have, and a vehicle for conducting business more efficiently than a citizen then the SC would have a point. But that is not the case. To have devised a vehicle to protect citizens and facilitate business, the Corporation, and then go back and claim the rights of a citizen for a Corporation is flat silly.

The SC lost itself in its own deliberations, overthought CU and ultimately lost track of the forest for the trees.
 
So Corp Law required modification before CU? Corporations were really struggling before that ruling weren't they. The ruling resulted in Corporations having the same 1st Amendment rights as citizens. Further the argument that many Media organizations were corporations was used as a justification when in fact a free press is assured in the Constitution. In other words, the fact that some Media organizations are corporations simply is a meaningless argument.

Corporations were designed to offer more protections than a citizen has with regard to civil tort especially. Corporations are inherently different from citizens though a corporation can in fact be a single citizen. Corporations do not have an inherent 1st Amendment right and it should be plainly obvious that corporations and citizens are not the same things in any respect. The Press and Corporations are not the same thing though it is plainly obvious that some media outlets are corporations.

Had corporations not been fashioned as a shield offering specific additional protections that a citizen does not have, and a vehicle for conducting business more efficiently than a citizen then the SC would have a point. But that is not the case. To have devised a vehicle to protect citizens and facilitate business, the Corporation, and then go back and claim the rights of a citizen for a Corporation is flat silly.

The SC lost itself in its own deliberations, overthought CU and ultimately lost track of the forest for the trees.

Citizens United doesn't just apply to private businesses. It applies to non-profits and PAC's, too.

Is donating to a PAC free speech?
 
Citizens United doesn't just apply to private businesses. It applies to non-profits and PAC's, too.

Is donating to a PAC free speech?

Is the PAC a candidate for anything?
 
So Corp Law required modification before CU? Corporations were really struggling before that ruling weren't they. The ruling resulted in Corporations having the same 1st Amendment rights as citizens. Further the argument that many Media organizations were corporations was used as a justification when in fact a free press is assured in the Constitution. In other words, the fact that some Media organizations are corporations simply is a meaningless argument.

Corporations were designed to offer more protections than a citizen has with regard to civil tort especially. Corporations are inherently different from citizens though a corporation can in fact be a single citizen. Corporations do not have an inherent 1st Amendment right and it should be plainly obvious that corporations and citizens are not the same things in any respect. The Press and Corporations are not the same thing though it is plainly obvious that some media outlets are corporations.

Had corporations not been fashioned as a shield offering specific additional protections that a citizen does not have, and a vehicle for conducting business more efficiently than a citizen then the SC would have a point. But that is not the case. To have devised a vehicle to protect citizens and facilitate business, the Corporation, and then go back and claim the rights of a citizen for a Corporation is flat silly.

The SC lost itself in its own deliberations, overthought CU and ultimately lost track of the forest for the trees.
This is an inaccurate understanding of both corporate personhood, and the Citizen's United decision. Corporations have always had First Amendment rights.

The crux of the CU decision was about what limits can be placed on that speech.

To understand CU in context, you have to look at prior campaign finance rulings. The first significant ruling was Buckley v. Valeo, in 1976. In Buckey, the court determined that donating money to a political campaign was an expression of speech, and in order for campaign finance laws to be applied, they must be examined under strict scrutiny - that any restrictions on speech must serve an important state purpose, and must be narrowly tailored to minimize the restrictions of speech.

Under that standard, the Court upheld limits on donations to campaigns, under the argument that unlimited donations could lead to real or apparent corruption. On the other hand, they overturned restrictions on how much campaigns could spend, because there was no legitimate state purpose behind them.

There were a lot of other cases in between, but the framework of Buckley is the same framework the Court used in CU - it wasn't a matter of whether corporations have first Amendment rights, it's about whether the restrictions on corporate spending could survive strict scrutiny.

In ruling that corporate expenditures on campaigns could not survive strict scrutiny, the Court redefined "real or apparent corruption" - the standard in Buckley - to include only direct quid pro quo corruption. Through that lense, they ruled that corporate expenditures in politics (as long as the money is not given to the candidate, but spent independently) could not lead to a direct quid pro quo, and therefore the restrictions were violations of the first amendment.
 
Is the PAC a candidate for anything?

It's a political action committee, made up of private citizens that receive donations from private citizens that engage in political speech.

And there's no way you'll get Congress to outlaw that kind of political activity.
 
It's a political action committee, made up of private citizens that receive donations from private citizens that engage in political speech.

And there's no way you'll get Congress to outlaw that kind of political activity.

So they are an open ended consolidation of unspecific funding for political means in which the donor gives up any control of how the funds are expended. Yea, that makes a lotta sense. If the Dems get control of Congress and the Presidency you can kiss your PAC's goodbye and good riddance to them.
 
So they are an open ended consolidation of unspecific funding for political means in which the donor gives up any control of how the funds are expended. Yea, that makes a lotta sense. If the Dems get control of Congress and the Presidency you can kiss your PAC's goodbye and good riddance to them.
PACs aren't going anywhere. They're not the problem.

Political campaigns are organized as PACs.
 
A corporation is made up of individuals. Those individuals can contribute to a campaign. If the corporation also contributes, those individuals have contributed twice. Should not be allowed. Same for unions or the Bernie Sanders super PAC.

Only let individuals contribute, and limit the amount. Then the most popular candidates will have the most money, and the rich won't have an advantage.

I would add that all contributions must be transparent. You contribute, your name is out there for EVERYONE to see.

Quite often, rich donors and corporations contribute to both sides in political campaigns. That is because they are interested in buying access to the winner, regardless of who that is. Neither the politicians nor the donors want that information known to the general public. It makes this the best government money can buy.

Getting the billions of dollars out of political campaigns is going to be problematic primarily because of the beneficiaries of that money: The politicians, the big money donors mentioned above, and the media outlets who air the ads. How do you overcome all three?
 
How Money Affects Elections | FiveThirtyEight
According to the above article 86% of elections are won by he who spends the most making money now seemingly the most important part of the election process. Some how I do not see our forefathers believeing that money should buy our elections. I have read messages that this would not allow corporations to have a voice in our government when they pay taxes and yet they have lobbying, which gives them a huge voise as anyone who keeps track of wht is happening in Washington can attest too. It seems that Citizens gives them a second bite at the apple and if the information that money is what wins elections, then they get a huge bite with nearly unlimited funding for elections. Citizens with its dark money seems to have allowed foreign money to be a part of our electoral process, something that our forefathers were certainly worried about. So why not rid ourselves of the huge problems created by Citizens and either the courts override what most legal scholars have siad is a very bad decision or throught the amendment process.

I find it curiously funny to find leftists so adamantly opposed to free speech and free association, not surprising, just funny. Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, 558 U.S. 310 (2010) was a very good decision, and the only decision an honest court could make in light of the First Amendment. Freedom and speech and freedom of association are two freedoms that really stick in the craw of leftists. They will do everything in their power to eliminate them (like we are seeing at the leftist universities). So naturally they utterly despise the very good decision made by the court.
 
PACs aren't going anywhere. They're not the problem.

Political campaigns are organized as PACs.

Political campaigns are for a candidate running for elected office. They can call them whatever they want to. There is a distinction between an organization that puts itself out there as being the official recipient of donations to a campaign for a specific candidate and just a slush fund. Citizens can donate whatever they want to the official funding arm of a politician's campaign. I am not opposed to that. I am opposed to slush funds like McConnell's Senate slush fund for example or any other political slush fund for that matter.
 
I find it curiously funny to find leftists so adamantly opposed to free speech and free association, not surprising, just funny. Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, 558 U.S. 310 (2010) was a very good decision, and the only decision an honest court could make in light of the First Amendment. Freedom and speech and freedom of association are two freedoms that really stick in the craw of leftists. They will do everything in their power to eliminate them (like we are seeing at the leftist universities). So naturally they utterly despise the very good decision made by the court.


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Govern.

Corporations are not people and people are not corporations.
 
When a citizen donates to a political campaign, it isn't speech?

Money is not speech. Please show me anywhere in the Constitution it says that money is speech. Even if you think money is speech, if you donate 50 dollars that would be free speech. If you donate a million dollars, then you are buying an election. That is why before Citizens we had limits.
 
so if you want no corporate money...which is your point i assume

what other money do you want taken out of politics?

to me, if you reverse Citizens United you have to completely take ALL MONEY out of politics they way it is done now

from unions, pacs, superpacs, individuals, companies, EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING

only money allowed would come from individuals then, be sent through on of the big 5 accounting firms, and then sent anonymously to the local/state/national figure they want to support...per person amount limit is 3k per politician

if you want to give to "your party" it again is anonymous....and you can donate up to 25k annually to any party annually, which the party can then dole out again through the big 5 firm to any candidate they want to support

no company/orgainzation/person can send money directly to a candidate...PERIOD

I have no problem with corporations donating money within strict limits. We had limits in the past, why so that the average citizen would have the same say as the wealthy and corporations. Now the Wealthy and corporations buy elections and the average citizen has little say until they vote and apparently the amount of "free Speech" the wealthy and the corporations have to spend makes a HUGE difference in how people vote. You can not tell me that is false.
 
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Govern.

Corporations are not people and people are not corporations.

Corporations are not people, which is why you don't see them assembling. Everyone has the right to free speech, which includes political contributions, including corporations, unions, and any other association of people.

You are just upset that Citizens United came out against your darling Hillary, so you want to punish them.
 
Donations are a form of expression, thus speech.

Do you oppose unions making donations to political campaigns?

No, money is money and speech is speech. Some of that money is not spent on speech, isn't it.
 
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