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[W:422] So, marriage is destroyed, right?

Logician Man said:
/// You don't know anything about me. /// Of course I know something about you. You just stated your religious beliefs teach you that homosexuality is a sin, did you not ?
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Does that mean I judge? No, it means I have an opinion base on faith.

So again you're wrong.
 
WCH said:
Does that mean I judge? No, it means I have an opinion base on faith.

So again you're wrong.
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I just said what you said, in essence. So if I'm wrong, you're wrong. That last post I made had no mention of 'judge' or 'judgement' in it. You just tossed that in because you claimed "I don't know anything about you", and I used your very own words to debunk your very own positive claim that I know nothing about you.
 
Logician Man said:
I just said what you said, in essence. So if I'm wrong, you're wrong. That last post I made had no mention of 'judge' or 'judgement' in it. You just tossed that in because you claimed "I don't know anything about you", and I used your very own words to debunk your very own positive claim that I know nothing about you.
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I expect nothing less from a God hating Leftist.
 
WCH said:
I expect nothing less from a God hating Leftist.
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And there ^^^ is the really hateful post, which also contains a blatant lie. We now know at least three things about you, by your very own hate-filled words.
 
WCH said:
It's all about the incessant, vicious activism with me. I know a lot of it is media and political driven but, not many are talking it back.

Like I said, I will continue to love my fellow humans as much as they allow me to. That being said I feel the need to rebuke sin wherever it may lie.
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Well, who knows what "vicious activism" means to you. If it's people fighting for their rights in a society that still would kick kids onto the street because they're gay, and is otherwise still full of hateful anti-gay bigots, then you're being unfair IMO. Those "vicious" activists have succeeded in changing 10s of millions of minds and the default acceptable treatment of LGBT in our society. They've been a positive good for the world and we owe them our thanks.
 
WCH said:
You sit around and talk about your sexual goings on with your friends? Seems very immature to me.
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Do you not introduce your wife to new people as you wife? Do you never touch her in public at all? Not the lower back, not hold her hand? Not take her elbow? Do you not discuss trips and vacations and stories that involve families and never refer to her?
 
WCH said:
Again [and not surprisingly] we are talking about sharing your sex lives with other. Not introductions or whether they hate Chinese. SEXUAL activity

I'm starting to think you are all infected with the goofies.
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Gay people discuss their sex lives in front of other people? No more so than straight people. I call total BS.

Gay couples dont discuss their sex lives in public anymore than straight people, that's total BS. What isnt BS is that when you are around gay people, all you do is imagine them having sex...that is how you identify with gays...ONLY by their sexual activity and not as people no different than straight people.

Ugh, all you do is focus on their sex acts...the issue is disturbing and it's all withing YOU, not them. That is your perversion, your deviance, not theirs.
 
WCH said:
Show any of those to be vicious.
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The intention of forcing women to remain pregnant against their will...hateful, vicious.

The intention to protect the unborn at the expense of women's lives and rights...hateful, vicious.

The intention of discriminating against LGBT so that they dont have the same protections for medical care, employment, families, etc...hateful, vicious.
 
JasperL said:
Well, who knows what "vicious activism" means to you. If it's people fighting for their rights in a society that still would kick kids onto the street because they're gay, and is otherwise still full of hateful anti-gay bigots, then you're being unfair IMO. Those "vicious" activists have succeeded in changing 10s of millions of minds and the default acceptable treatment of LGBT in our society. They've been a positive good for the world and we owe them our thanks.
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According to this study, there are varying reasons why these kids are homeless but, being LGBT is only a small fraction of their problems. IMO, we need to find out why so many are angry, self-loathing and self-destructive.
Gay and Transgender Youth Homelessness by the Numbers - Center for American Progress
 
WCH said:
Show any of those to be vicious.
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They are all seeking to deny secular rights to other citizens based on the religious beliefs of a small and vocal group, despite the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment that creates a wall of separation between religion and the state. Your religious beliefs are not permitted to be used as a weapon to deny equal rights to others. That same relgious group would howl if anyther religious group such as Muslims, or Hindus used the state to force them to obey the relgious belifs of a non-Christian religion or a Christian sect that have beliefs different from their own, but they have no such compulsion to respect the rights of others. These people need to be forced to understand that their relgious beliefs stop at the end of their upturned nose because that is where the equal religious and secular rights of others begin. After all, their religious delusions are not to be used to filter the constitutional rights of others through.
 
WCH said:
According to this study, there are varying reasons why these kids are homeless but, being LGBT is only a small fraction of their problems. IMO, we need to find out why so many are angry, self-loathing and self-destructive.
Gay and Transgender Youth Homelessness by the Numbers - Center for American Progress
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Did you not read your own link?

These vulnerable gay and transgender youth often run away from home because of family conflict and then face overt discrimination when seeking alternative housing, which is compounded by institutionalized discrimination in federally funded programs.
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58% sexually assaulted
62% discriminated against by their families (double the heterosexual rate)
86% harassed because they're gay at schools, which is why schools should teach tolerance, not intolerance, IMO
22% physically attacked,
44% physically harassed
About 1/3 of the time, when they report abuse, authorities do nothing.

Etc......

What the article shows is rampant anti-LGBT discrimination at every level - families, foster homes, group homes, schools, and you want to know why they're angry, self loathing, given that they're subject to high levels of verbal, physical and sexual abuse, harassment, kicked out of their homes, kicked out of foster homes, are not safe in group homes?
 
WCH said:
According to this study, there are varying reasons why these kids are homeless but, being LGBT is only a small fraction of their problems. IMO, we need to find out why so many are angry, self-loathing and self-destructive.
Gay and Transgender Youth Homelessness by the Numbers - Center for American Progress
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They have been abused and neglected by hateful parents and bullied at school. PTSD is endemic among transgdered teens and adults because of the abuse that they suffered at home, in school, and in public. They are often denied care and are homeless when parents kick them out for being trans.

Transgender Trauma
 
WCH said:
Show any of those to be vicious.
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So we're clear, LGBT fighting for the same rights you enjoy IS "vicious" but working to deny them those rights you enjoy is not?

It's a funny way to look at the issue, 180 degrees wrong in fact. I'd consider it 'vicious' to work to deny rights to others, when that denial is based only on their sexual orientation. You don't have to approve of the conduct - I don't approve of lots of conduct - but to deny them rights you enjoy is what "vicious" looks like to me.
 
WCH said:
According to this study, there are varying reasons why these kids are homeless but, being LGBT is only a small fraction of their problems. IMO, we need to find out why so many are angry, self-loathing and self-destructive.
Gay and Transgender Youth Homelessness by the Numbers - Center for American Progress
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There's a story about a local entertainer that explains the problem pretty well. He was raised in an evangelical household in a very rural area nearby and showed obvious gifts for music at an early age - by 7 or 8 he was on TV, performed with Dolly Parton, and sang gospel on a local circuit, from church to church. He want to a conservative Christian college, signed with a gospel record company, and was making an album.

So he's gay and is a little confused by it and is simply reading the Bible and related works about what Christianity says about it. His roommate discovers this 'research', reports him to the school leadership, he's first immediately expelled from the school music program (his life, basically) then at the end of the semester expelled from school, his recording contract cancelled, and is effectively unwelcomed by his family and his church. So in a few days, ALL the foundations of his life to that point are shattered. Does it surprise you he became angry, self loathing, and self destructive, when everyone and everything he once loved tells him he's scum and unwelcome in their lives? That he moved to LA, turned to alcohol and drugs?

These stories are, and especially were, COMMON among gay people. I've heard many of them. Thankfully this guy reconciled with his family a decade or so later, and they're now his biggest fans, and are in the audience for EVERY show locally - 10-15 straight if that's the run. But that was possible in part because of "VICIOUS ACTIVISTS" that you condemn, and then pretend not to understand why they do what they do, even after reading about it in black and white.

I seriously hope you open your mind up a little bit and listen to some of these stories. They are easy to find if you want to learn and they go a long way to understanding why some of us feel the way we do.
 
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Lursa said:
You are assuming that definition. It has been different traditionally in many places, including the US. It used to be legal to be married to more than one person.

When in came to that legal union, at the time, race was as significant as sexual orientation. And since marriage in the US is a secular institution, why would sexual orientation matter anymore than race?

In this country, we correct injustices in discrimination and equality, we dont preserve them based on tradition.
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Neither polygamy nor same sex unions have ever been anything more than a very remote aberration in the Western tradition up to the present. The idea that either has any sort of widespread or substantial history in the west is simply not true. Marriage had a definition. You either qualified or you didn't. This wasn't so much about correcting anything as it was about giving marriage an entirely new definition. As I said, ANY two or more people can now use the exact same Constituional argument advanced for gays and, if we are going to avoid further "injustices", they cannot be denied.
 
veritas1 said:
Neither polygamy nor same sex unions have ever been anything more than a very remote aberration in the Western tradition up to the present. The idea that either has any sort of widespread or substantial history in the west is simply not true. Marriage had a definition. You either qualified or you didn't. This wasn't so much about correcting anything as it was about giving marriage an entirely new definition. As I said, ANY two or more people can now use the exact same Constituional argument advanced for gays and, if we are going to avoid further "injustices", they cannot be denied.
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But they are denied
 
veritas1 said:
Neither polygamy nor same sex unions have ever been anything more than a very remote aberration in the Western tradition up to the present. The idea that either has any sort of widespread or substantial history in the west is simply not true. Marriage had a definition. You either qualified or you didn't. This wasn't so much about correcting anything as it was about giving marriage an entirely new definition. As I said, ANY two or more people can now use the exact same Constituional argument advanced for gays and, if we are going to avoid further "injustices", they cannot be denied.
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What do you have in mind that any two people could do that appear to outrage you? Why do you feel the need to inject yourself or your religious beliefs into the relationships of others? Do you see yourself as the defender of proper western culture that must be protected from change and equal rights? Do you also want to limit our religious rights and free speech to only religions and ideas that you agree with?
 
veritas1 said:
Neither polygamy nor same sex unions have ever been anything more than a very remote aberration in the Western tradition up to the present. The idea that either has any sort of widespread or substantial history in the west is simply not true. Marriage had a definition. You either qualified or you didn't. This wasn't so much about correcting anything as it was about giving marriage an entirely new definition. As I said, ANY two or more people can now use the exact same Constituional argument advanced for gays and, if we are going to avoid further "injustices", they cannot be denied.
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That is only your opinion. Of very recent history. And the state of Utah would disagree.

It's also not a standard in many other countries.

And as far as I could see, you did not give a direct response to this question:


When in came to that legal union, at the time, race was as significant as sexual orientation. And since marriage in the US is a secular institution, why would sexual orientation matter anymore than race?

In this country, we correct injustices in discrimination and equality, we dont preserve them based on tradition
 
Lisa said:
They are all seeking to deny secular rights to other citizens based on the religious beliefs of a small and vocal group, despite the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment that creates a wall of separation between religion and the state. Your religious beliefs are not permitted to be used as a weapon to deny equal rights to others. That same relgious group would howl if anyther religious group such as Muslims, or Hindus used the state to force them to obey the relgious belifs of a non-Christian religion or a Christian sect that have beliefs different from their own, but they have no such compulsion to respect the rights of others. These people need to be forced to understand that their relgious beliefs stop at the end of their upturned nose because that is where the equal religious and secular rights of others begin. After all, their religious delusions are not to be used to filter the constitutional rights of others through.
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Keep it to yourself. [that's what you told me]

Sorry you had a bad religious experience that made you so hate filled.
 
JasperL said:
Did you not read your own link?



58% sexually assaulted
62% discriminated against by their families (double the heterosexual rate)
86% harassed because they're gay at schools, which is why schools should teach tolerance, not intolerance, IMO
22% physically attacked,
44% physically harassed
About 1/3 of the time, when they report abuse, authorities do nothing.

Etc......

What the article shows is rampant anti-LGBT discrimination at every level - families, foster homes, group homes, schools, and you want to know why they're angry, self loathing, given that they're subject to high levels of verbal, physical and sexual abuse, harassment, kicked out of their homes, kicked out of foster homes, are not safe in group homes?
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Then I'd say there like the rest of the homeless children and adults. Couldn't deal with authority and wanted to do their own thing.

A lot of mental illness going on. IMO
 
WCH said:
And I thought it would be pedophilia as the next step. Turns out it was polygamy

Gay Marriage Was Always Leading To Polygamy - The Federalist
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What is morally wrong with polygamy?

I personally think it's a bad idea for women but hey, if women want more than one husband...great too! I dont see anything wrong with it morally, there are studies that show it can be very good for the raising of children.

OTOH, in terms of govt. tax breaks and benefits, I strongly do not believe in polygamous couples getting more than marriage couples. IMO, each marriage should be classified as a single unit and not get any more or less benefits, etc.
 
Lisa said:
Why would pedophilia ever be tolerated? What do you think this is, the Vatican?
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:lamo:lamo

He's not Catholic tho.
 
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