Why Bernie and his followers will take over sooner or later

Luckyone said:

Worthless post of yours

Click to expand...

Disagreed, but thanks for the same level of bias, condescension and disrespect you are claiming others give Bernie and his followers.

In short, all age groups have their hypocrites.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

So: FEAR OF SOCIALISTS

But:

"I see myself as a Leninist, deconstructing the administrative state." is A-OK.

That's one of Trump's biggest influencers, Steve Bannon.
FIRED? Don't believe it for a second, Bannon still has Trump's ear and the ear of everyone who reads Breitbart.

Allowing Trump the power to pick our candidates, we might as well hand him the election anyway if that's the issue.
While many are worried about what he's going to do running against a guy like Bernie, to them I ask, have you considered what they HAVE done and WILL continue TO DO against a moderate?

Fear of Bernie is one thing, but there's nothing on record yet.
We have twenty-something years worth of evidence as to what they do to moderates. They CRUSH them by any means necessary, including cheating and destroying the system itself.

Someone please SHOW ME the moderates that our "moderate candidate" will be reaching out to on the other side.
Oh looky, here's one now [sarc]
He seems nice!

Click to expand...

Bannon is such a BS artist that he can sell ice to the right Eskimo.

iguanaman said:

You did not address my my prime complaint about Sander's electability. What are you going to do about the millions of voters who will not want to get kicked off their employer healthcare?

Click to expand...

Your employer picks your insurer.
Your insurer picks your doctors and your hospitals
Your insurer decides which prescriptions are covered, and what procedures

Are we still talking about all the so called "choices" we think we have?

With single payer, do you not think there will be choices?

I agree with what the OP said. As a younger person I would just say that socialism is not communism and the evil acts of people like Stalin are not inherent to either of those ideologies. I'm a big believer in social democracy and I strongly feel like we are on that road.

Luckyone said:

You are not worth my taking time to do that, especially since nothing I say you will ever agree with.

Click to expand...

You got caught lying, again.

Luckyone said:

Actually, Jeff Bezos is the perfect example of income inequality as his money (over $500 Billion) is the starkest reminder of how rich people get richer while poor people get poorer. In addition, AMZN has become a monopoly, which goes to prove that the system is now rigged for the rich and not for the poor and middle class small mom and pop operations. His company does represent what money can do to get rid of the competition, which means the smaller companies cannot compete and are going out of business.

As such, you bringing him into the income inequality conversation, is actually making my point and not yours.

Click to expand...

:lamo

Dear lord....

Amazon was the leading edge of a new and emerging market. Amazon today employs and nearly a million people and creates wealth for many times more than that. And thats just Amazon. Bezos is invested in so many more companies around the world, all of them providing employment investment and growth opportunities. And STILL...as wealthy as Jeff Bezos is PERSONALLY...his wealth does not prevent YOU or anyone else from gaining wealth. Small business investors are still a HUGE part of the top 1%. Far from BEING a monopoly, Amazon actually SPAWNED numerous competing businesses that followed his model. Even if you just look at the home delivery markets alone, most of them benefitted from the Amazon business model and NOTHING can touch their investment in shipping and delivery.

Which STILL says nothing of income inequality. If anything, Bezos is the perfect model of 'trickle down' success.

I never thought I'd see the day in America when people were excited at the prospect of a Communist taking power. I have to hand it to the leftists. Their 60+ year dominance of the education system and many decades monopoly on the media appear to be bearing fruit. Too bad America as we know it and our liberty will evaporate in the process.

Mongidig said:

This sounds like all the hoopla we heard before Obama was elected. I'll admit, I was not happy he won but was excited to see if he was the real deal. Unfortunately, Washington has a way of clubbing these guy's over the head and keeping them in line. Bernie would get into office and quickly realize that he is not in charge. I guarantee he will disappoint with his promises just like Obama did even if he didn't take money from big donors. It's of no use introducing an uncorrupt element into a corrupt system. It's like downloading new software onto a computer infected with viruses. It needs to be cleaned up first.

Click to expand...

I don't know,.Trump has done more for the Unified Executive than anyone else. So if Bernie got in, he may find himself with far more power than anyone thought possible.

jnug said:

However I am really sick of these Fantasy Platforms regardless of who forwards them.

Click to expand...

Maybe we should look at them as aspirational rather than practical. He'll move the "Overton Window" to the left.

veritas1 said:

I never thought I'd see the day in America when people were excited at the prospect of a Communist taking power. I have to hand it to the leftists. Their 60+ year dominance of the education system and many decades monopoly on the media appear to be bearing fruit. Too bad America as we know it and our liberty will evaporate in the process.

Click to expand...

Yeah, the liberty of the rich to lord it over the rest of us will be no more. Oh, the pity and the woe... :roll:

But until that awful time, Party On!!!

Pew Research Center estimates that since 1970, the share of the nation’s income earned by families in the middle class has fallen from almost two-thirds to around 40 percent.
In the latest data, people in the top 10 percent of income saved almost a third of their income after taxes. People in the middle of the income distribution spent 100 percent of their income.



The top 1% take home 24% of income. In 1976 they took home 9%. They own half the nation's stocks, bonds, and mutual funds.
The bottom 50% own one-half of one percent of stocks, bonds and mutual funds.
CEO's have to work one hour to make what the average worker makes in a month.

Freedom!

veritas1 said:

I never thought I'd see the day in America when people were excited at the prospect of a Communist taking power.

Click to expand...

Cool. You call Sanders a Communist, we get to call Trump a Nazi. And he's WAY more of a Nazi than Sanders is a Communist. WAY more.

jpn said:

Pew Research Center estimates that since 1970, the share of the nation’s income earned by families in the middle class has fallen from almost two-thirds to around 40 percent.

Click to expand...

That chart is meaningless, because other people getting richer doesn't make you any poorer. You're falling for the fixed-pie fallacy.

In the latest data, people in the top 10 percent of income saved almost a third of their income after taxes. People in the middle of the income distribution spent 100 percent of their income.

Click to expand...

By their own choice. The fact is, most people don't budget their money properly.

iguanaman said:

And lose to Trump. That is what Sanders supporters are doing. Trump would love to face Bernie and you should know why.

Click to expand...

It does go to show how incompetent Trump is because there is nothing Trump can say that about Sanders that will change the minds of Sanders supporters and there are more Sanders supporters than Trump supporters and they will all show up to vote while a good 10% of Trump supporters will stay home.

In addition, Bernie will key on the corruption in Trumps administration and bury Trump with that, given that there is no corruption in Bernie's camp. Bernie is much more likely to change the minds of the undecided than Trump.

I say, "bring it on!"

haymarket said:

I like your description of Trump as a real jerk off who has no respect for the Constitution.

Everything I have heard indicates Trump does not care if he again loses the popular vote as long as he narrowly takes the Electoral College. He won last time in a perfect storm where everything went right for him on the one day when all those factors turned in his favor and then he won by a whisker. I suspect that is also his plan this time. And he can do that by only appealing to the Deplorables and making it so ugly and tainted that lots of decent people will simply stay home rather than get in the pissing contest they see Trump engaging in.

Click to expand...

I am really really hoping that the Trumpian nonsense at DOJ starts to crack those Independents and even some Republicans that have had every Tom, Dick and Larry excuse under the sun to give Trump, his brood and his hacks a pass:
- eh....Iraq and Syria are over there. Just does not effect me that much (not true but an argument none the less)
- eh.....I don't really understand this tariffs stuff but it does not effect me really (not true but OK if you say so)
- eh.....So what if Trump and Pompeo are hollowing out the State Dept costing us hundreds if not thousands of experienced diplomates....why should I care (this one really dazzles me)
- eh......So Trump attacks EPA, CDC, Dept of Agro even NOAA not just with constructive criticism but with outright efforts to destroy. Why should I care? (another dazzler)
- eh.....Trump is really kinda's screwy but my 401K (ah-huh)

But in this DOJ mess, we have something that cannot simply be swept under the rug by everyday Americans because if it is allowed to pass, any one of us at any time can be attacked by the Justice System just because.......just because we exercised our First Amendment Rights to Free Speech for example......just because we disagree with a particular point of view or disagree with a particular person. Its an attack on the Rights of all of us. Any citizen that is important to us or even us ourselves can be attacked via corrupt use of the DOJ simply based on what we have come to understand and in fact know to be our Rights as citizens. One man's hard working citizen can easily be turned into another man's political adversary......easy as pie. All you have to be to make that grade is be on the other side of the political spectrum. You don't even have to be way on the other side. Trump is just as likely to knee jerk his way to attacking a Republican as he is to attacking a Dem or anybody for that matter.

So I am really hoping this is a crack that has opened that can't be ignored. Trump seems quite amenable to opening the crack even wider.

By the way J. Edgar's abuse of the FBI and even Tricky Dick's abuse of DOJ does not touch this mess with a ten foot pole, not even within pissing distance of it.

VanceMack said:

:lamo

Dear lord....

Amazon was the leading edge of a new and emerging market. Amazon today employs and nearly a million people and creates wealth for many times more than that. And thats just Amazon. Bezos is invested in so many more companies around the world, all of them providing employment investment and growth opportunities. And STILL...as wealthy as Jeff Bezos is PERSONALLY...his wealth does not prevent YOU or anyone else from gaining wealth. Small business investors are still a HUGE part of the top 1%. Far from BEING a monopoly, Amazon actually SPAWNED numerous competing businesses that followed his model. Even if you just look at the home delivery markets alone, most of them benefitted from the Amazon business model and NOTHING can touch their investment in shipping and delivery.

Which STILL says nothing of income inequality. If anything, Bezos is the perfect model of 'trickle down' success.

Click to expand...

I will not argue about the benefits that Amazon has brought but then again, how many people have lost their jobs at other companies that have gone out of business because they can't compete with Amazon. I know that companies such as Sears, JCPenny, Macy's and even Kmart are hurting because of Amazon and even companies like Walmart and Target have suffered. It is fine to say how many people are working for Amazon but then again he has become a monopoly and has cause more losses of jobs than what he has brought. Monopolies always do that.

I suggest you do some research on Monopolies and the negatives they bring.

Luckyone said:

I will not argue about the benefits that Amazon has brought but then again, how many people have lost their jobs at other companies that have gone out of business because they can't compete with Amazon. I know that companies such as Sears, JCPenny, Macy's and even Kmart are hurting because of Amazon and even companies like Walmart and Target have suffered. It is fine to say how many people are working for Amazon but then again he has become a monopoly and has cause more losses of jobs than what he has brought. Monopolies always do that.

I suggest you do some research on Monopolies and the negatives they bring.

Click to expand...

Oh for ****s sake...

And before you started ****ting yourself about Amazon people were pissing themselves over Sears and Roebuck putting the little guy out of business. Amazon has a liberal whining about the downfall of Wal Mart.

:lamo

aociswundumho said:

That chart is meaningless, because other people getting richer doesn't make you any poorer. You're falling for the fixed-pie fallacy.

Click to expand...

Silly on so many levels. Perhaps most of all, the hollowing out of the middle class is bad economics. A strong and prosperous middle class is the best engine for GDP growth. The less the middle class shares in increasing wealth, the poorer the economy at large. Of course the rich won't see that because they are happily getting richer.

jpn said:

Silly on so many levels. Perhaps most of all, the hollowing out of the middle class is bad economics. A strong and prosperous middle class is the best engine for GDP growth. The less the middle class shares in increasing wealth, the poorer the economy at large. Of course the rich won't see that because they are happily getting richer.

Click to expand...

Here's the claim: You getting richer doesn't make me any poorer.

Is it true or false?

aociswundumho said:

Here's the claim: You getting richer doesn't make me any poorer.
Is it true or false?

Click to expand...

It's false if there is a fixed "pie." In this case, the "pie" is the amount of income held in a given year. The pie is fixed by definition.

Per the chart, in 1970 the wealthy held 29% of the income. The middle held 62%.
In 2014 the wealthy held 49% while the middle held 43%.

Your argument seems to be that the middle is not worse off holding 43% than holding 62%. Isn't that your argument?

Luckyone said:

It does go to show how incompetent Trump is because there is nothing Trump can say that about Sanders that will change the minds of Sanders supporters and there are more Sanders supporters than Trump supporters and they will all show up to vote while a good 10% of Trump supporters will stay home.

Click to expand...

It's not at all clear that there are more Sanders supporters than Trump supporters. I suspect the opposite is true. I hope and pray that there will be more votes for whomever the Democrats run than voters for Trump.

I hope voters like you will be just as enthusiastic if the Democrats end up going with Klobuchar or Buttigieg or Warren or whoever.

jpn said:

It's not at all clear that there are more Sanders supporters than Trump supporters. I suspect the opposite is true. I hope and pray that there will be more votes for whomever the Democrats run than voters for Trump.

I hope voters like you will be just as enthusiastic if the Democrats end up going with Klobuchar or Buttigieg or Warren or whoever.

Click to expand...

This is an election about Trump staying in office or leaving. As I have stated often before, I would vote for a cockroach if it meant getting rid of Trump.

jpn said:

It's false if there is a fixed "pie." In this case, the "pie" is the amount of income held in a given year. The pie is fixed by definition.

Click to expand...

No, the pie is not fixed. All you're doing is measuring the gross amount of income earned during a specific time period.

Suppose during a one year period Joe earned 25K and Jeff earned 100k. It could have been that both of them earned 100k that year, but for whatever reason, Joe only earned 25k. Or Jeff might have earned 300k and Joe 200k. It's not a situation where one of them can only gain at the expense of the other - because the pie is not fixed.

aociswundumho said:

No, the pie is not fixed. All you're doing is measuring the gross amount of income earned during a specific time period.

Suppose during a one year period Joe earned 25K and Jeff earned 100k. It could have been that both of them earned 100k that year, but for whatever reason, Joe only earned 25k. Or Jeff might have earned 300k and Joe 200k. It's not a situation where one of them can only gain at the expense of the other - because the pie is not fixed.

Click to expand...

"but for whatever reason." That says it all. Maybe the reason is because businesses used to think that cutting labor into a share of the profits was the responsible thing to do. They don't anymore. Maybe the reason is that labor has less power today than at any time since before WWII. Maybe the reason is that corporations have paid law makers to pass various laws in their favor to maximize profits at the expense of society at large. Maybe the tax laws have been so corrupted by conservative political interests that rich people pay the same rate as the middle class. Maybe the reason is systematic discrimination.

But no worries, making $25,000 is just the same as making $100,000 because of the pie thingy.

Luckyone said:

This is an election about Trump staying in office or leaving. As I have stated often before, I would vote for a cockroach if it meant getting rid of Trump.

Click to expand...

Here here.

I do with Sanders would drop the whole "Socialist" schtick. Or "Democratic Socialist," which is not much better. He's not a Socialist, as everyone knows. He doesn't call for centralized control of the means of production. He just wants more extensive social programs. That doesn't make him a Socialist any more than Ronald Reagan was a Socialist.

jpn said:

Here here.

I do with Sanders would drop the whole "Socialist" schtick. Or "Democratic Socialist," which is not much better. He's not a Socialist, as everyone knows. He doesn't call for centralized control of the means of production. He just wants more extensive social programs. That doesn't make him a Socialist any more than Ronald Reagan was a Socialist.

Click to expand...

He does promote the Democratic Socialist agenda and that is fine with me. You cannot change people's minds by changing words. Let him stand for what he stands. People have to make their own decisions, whether they are based on lies or not. You cannot change their minds by changing words.