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The new socialism

danielpalos said:
Yes, it is. The public sector handles public sector means of production. Government is social-ism. Everything must be accounted for in economics. The public sector is socialism.
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Another invented term. You simply will not have credibility unless you stop inventing and smearing terms. Find Social - ism in the Merriam Webster for me please.

Societies are not forms of government. Social structures are social structures. Governments are governments. You are just engaging in more smearing of terms in an effort to make an argument.

Society:
1 : companionship or association with one's fellows : friendly or intimate intercourse : COMPANY
2 : a voluntary association of individuals for common ends
especially : an organized group working together or periodically meeting because of common interests, beliefs, or profession
3a : an enduring and cooperating social group whose members have developed organized patterns of relationships through interaction with one another
b : a community, nation, or broad grouping of people having common traditions, institutions, and collective activities and interests
4a : a part of a community that is a unit distinguishable by particular aims or standards of living or conduct : a social circle or a group of social circles having a clearly marked identity

Government:
1 : the body of persons that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization: such as the officials comprising the governing body of a political unit and constituting the organization as an active agency

As one can easily see, there are specific governing authorities and responsibilities that exist in government organizations that do not exist in Society at large or in a Social structure.

Social structures can best be defined by commonly held opinion. Governments can best be defined by responsibility for action.

Socialism:
any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

Socialism is a political doctrine, not a government form. You can build a government form from that political doctrine and your government will likely be called a form of government based on Socialist doctrine. Marx considered Socialism as a political doctrine that was a transitional phase to Communism another political doctrine. Marx was of course WRONG. He was wrong about a number of things. Communism is something of a utopian construct that has rarely ever been realized before corruption and autocracy simply overwhelmed it.
 
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jnug said:
Another invented term. You simply will not have credibility unless you stop inventing and smearing terms. Find Social - ism in the Merriam Webster for me please.

Societies are not forms of government. Social structures are social structures. Governments are governments. You are just engaging in more smearing of terms in an effort to make an argument.

Society:
1 : companionship or association with one's fellows : friendly or intimate intercourse : COMPANY
2 : a voluntary association of individuals for common ends
especially : an organized group working together or periodically meeting because of common interests, beliefs, or profession
3a : an enduring and cooperating social group whose members have developed organized patterns of relationships through interaction with one another
b : a community, nation, or broad grouping of people having common traditions, institutions, and collective activities and interests
4a : a part of a community that is a unit distinguishable by particular aims or standards of living or conduct : a social circle or a group of social circles having a clearly marked identity

Government:
1 : the body of persons that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization: such as the officials comprising the governing body of a political unit and constituting the organization as an active agency

As one can easily see, there are specific governing authorities and responsibilities that exist in government organizations that do not exist in Society at large or in a Social structure.

Social structures can best be defined by commonly held opinion. Governments can best be defined by responsibility for action.

Socialism:
any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

Socialism is a political doctrine, not a government form. You can build a government form from that political doctrine and your government will likely be called a form of government based on Socialist doctrine. Marx considered Socialism as a political doctrine that was a transitional phase to Communism another political doctrine. Marx was of course WRONG. He was wrong about a number of things. Communism is something of a utopian construct that has rarely ever been realized before corruption and autocracy simply overwhelmed it.
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Just like the political jargon found in dictionaries regarding "socialism"?

What true socialist economy has no Government? True free markets have no Government.
 
danielpalos said:
Just like the political jargon found in dictionaries regarding "socialism"?

What true socialist economy has no Government? True free markets have no Government.
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But nations have governments. You are smearing terms AGAIN. Economies are not governments. Free markets are not governments. Economies are economies. Governments are governments.

Economy:
Definition of the economy
the system in one's country of producing, buying, and selling goods.

By definition an Economic system must have an incorporated financial system. Government is not an Economic system. Government often participates in the Economic System. It is hard to find one that doesn't these days. But its participation in the Economic system of the country is not a prerequisite for a Democracy or a Republic.

For example:
Are all national governments responsible for the national security? Yup they are.
Are all national governments responsible for the control of the means of production? No they are not.

There are some responsibilities of national government that are the exclusive domain of all national governments and some that are dependent on the particular political doctrine the national government is based upon. That does not allow us to smear terms to make an argument.
 
jnug said:
But nations have governments. You are smearing terms AGAIN. Economies are not governments. Free markets are not governments. Economies are economies. Governments are governments.
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Nations are created via socialism not capitalism. Social-ism is what Governments are: relating to society or its organization.
 
danielpalos said:
Nations are created via socialism not capitalism.
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No they are not. Some nations are based on a political doctrine called Socialism and some are not. Capitalism is an economic and financial system. It is not a political doctrine. We are a mixed bag as we have been a Social Democracy since at least FDR but we are still a Capitalist economy and financial system. If that were not true all of that wealth that has and still continues to accumulate at the top end would not have and still be accumulating at the top end.

In fact, even Trump's Corp Tax nonsense while exacerbating wealth inequality in this country did not start that process nor even contribute to most of it. The income taxes imposed on the middle class have for the most part been the mainstay of the revenues that feed the Treasury and the consumer spending of the middle class has generally been the engine that drives our economy. Unfortunately we keep burdening the middle class with more tax burden in spite of claiming otherwise and we keep robbing from them the ability to sustain that burden.
 
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jnug said:
No they are not. Some nations are based on a political doctrine called Socialism and some are not. Capitalism is an economic and financial system. It is not a political doctrine. We are a mixed bag as we have been a Social Democracy since at least FDR but we are still a Capitalist economy and financial system. If that were not true all of that wealth that has and still continues to accumulate at the top end would not have and still be accumulating at the top end.

In fact, even Trump's Corp Tax nonsense while exacerbating wealth inequality in this country did not start that process nor even contribute to most of it. The income taxes imposed on the middle class have for the most part been the mainstay of the revenues that feed the Treasury and the consumer spending of the middle class has generally been the engine that drives our economy. Unfortunately we keep burdening the middle class with more tax burden in spite of claiming otherwise and we keep robbing from them the ability to sustain that burden.
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The process is socialist not capitalist. Social-ism is what we are discussing: relating to society or its organization.
 
danielpalos said:
Just like the political jargon found in dictionaries regarding "socialism"?

What true socialist economy has no Government? True free markets have no Government.
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You do not know what you are talking about. You should read some definitions before making these statements. You should read something that socialists have actually written. You are making this all up, trying to promote your agenda.

Governments are not socialism. Socialist and capitalist societies both have governments. Anarchist societies have no government -- of course these have never existed and never will.
 
danielpalos said:
The process is socialist not capitalist. Social-ism is what we are discussing: relating to society or its organization.
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Read something that socialists have written before continuing this empty nonsense.
 
Not many people understand what socialism actually is.

Even many self-identified socialists don't really know what 'true' socialism is.

That's why there are so many of them!
 
Good4Nothin said:
You do not know what you are talking about. You should read some definitions before making these statements. You should read something that socialists have actually written. You are making this all up, trying to promote your agenda.

Governments are not socialism. Socialist and capitalist societies both have governments. Anarchist societies have no government -- of course these have never existed and never will.
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I must know more than You because i resort to the fewest fallacies. I don't get my understanding of concept of socialism from dictionaries, but encyclopedias.

Government is social-ism. Only those who appeal to ignorance claim otherwise.
 
danielpalos said:
The process is socialist not capitalist. Social-ism is what we are discussing: relating to society or its organization.
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Which is not government which I have pointed out several times by pointing out the distinctions. You are NOT pointing out why they are the same because you can't. All you can do is claim they are. What "process" are you referring to. Socialism is not a process, its a political doctrine. Communism is a political doctrine. Fascism is a political doctrine. Republicanism is a political doctrine.

Even Social structure is not a process. Social structure is an organization around an idea or an opinion. Can a social structure develop by different processes? Surely it can. As such even defining social structure as a "process" is frankly nonsense.

Socialsim is a political doctrine. Social structure or organization is a structure built around an opinion or an idea. its not a political doctrine.

Capitalism is an economic and financial system which is also NOT government and not a political doctrine.
 
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SkyChief said:
Not many people understand what socialism actually is.

Even many self-identified socialists don't really know what 'true' socialism is.

That's why there are so many of them!
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Social-ism, is what is being quibbled; not right wing appeals to ignorance.

relating to society or its organization.
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jnug said:
Which is not government which I have pointed out several times by pointing out the distinctions. You are NOT pointing out why they are the same because you can't. All you can do is claim they are. What "process" are you referring to. Socialism is not a process, its a political doctrine. Communism is a political doctrine. Fascism is a political doctrine. Republicanism is a political doctrine. Democracy is a political doctrine.

Even Social structure is not a process. Social structure is an organization around an idea or an opinion. Can a social structure develop by different processes? Surely it can. As such even defining social structure as a "process" is frankly nonsense.

Socialsim is a political doctrine. Social structure or organization is a structure built around an opinion or an idea. its not a political doctrine.

Capitalism is an economic and financial system which is also NOT government.
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You have no distinctions; all you have is political jargon from the Cold War. Government is social-ism. Well regulated milita, who are the People, is social not Capital.
 
danielpalos said:
You have no distinctions; all you have is political jargon from the Cold War. Government is social-ism. Well regulated milita, who are the People, is social not Capital.
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Political jargon? At least you can find my "political jargon" in a dictionary. Its not some newfound invention of an inventive mind. You are simply engaging in the smearing of defined terms and language which should not be smeared.

There is no legitimate reason for smearing defined terms or language. It is DANGEROUS. Go into a contract negotiation trying to smear the meaning of defined terms or language and you will be lucky to come out without being skinned alive. In fact, your own boss will likely skin you alive.
 
jnug said:
Political jargon? At least you can find my "political jargon" in a dictionary. Its not some newfound invention of an inventive mind. You are simply engaging in the smearing of defined terms and language which should not be smeared.

There is no legitimate reason for smearing defined terms or language. It is DANGEROUS. Go into a contract negotiation trying to smear the meaning of defined terms or language and you will be lucky to come out without being skinned alive. In fact, your own boss will likely skin you alive.
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lol. Social-ism is what we are discussing. Any more diversion or red herrings?
 
Good4Nothin said:
The roads were paved by local agencies. And road paving is not a socialist program anyway.
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Since they are owned by government, you could certainly cite it as a social asset. I would say it's a socialist project. All government infrastructure is. In the pure capitalist system Republicans dream of, all infrastructure is held by corporations or individuals for the sole purpose of profit.
 
danielpalos said:
lol. Social-ism is what we are discussing. Any more diversion or red herrings?
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Your invented hyphenated word is not worth discussing actually. Write a doctoral thesis if you want. Present it and see if anybody solutes. I doubt it. But knock your mind out.
 
danielpalos said:
Government of the People, by the People, and for the People, is socialism.
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That is democracy. Until you read some books, I don't think any of us should bother responding to your nonsense.
 
Good4Nothin said:
That is democracy. Until you read some books, I don't think any of us should bother responding to your nonsense.
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democracy is a form of socialism.
If liberty and equality, as is thought by some, are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in government to the utmost.

Aristotle
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jnug said:
Your invented hyphenated word is not worth discussing actually. Write a doctoral thesis if you want. Present it and see if anybody solutes. I doubt it. But knock your mind out.
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lol. that word is in any dictionary just like your word.
 
danielpalos said:
lol. that word is in any dictionary just like your word.
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Just looked for it in the Merriam Webster. There is no description for your hyphenated word there. There is only the usual phonetic word parsing to help with pronunciation. That is not a word and phonetic parsings by definition are not the word itself. Stop trying to slime up the thread with diversions and disingenuousness. There is no dictionary definition for the hyphenated word you have made the center of your argument.
 
jnug said:
Just looked for it in the Merriam Webster. There is no description for your hyphenated word there. There is only the usual phonetic word parsing to help with pronunciation. That is not a word and phonetic parsings by definition are not the word itself. Stop trying to slime up the thread with diversions and disingenuousness. There is no dictionary definition for the hyphenated word you have made the center of your argument.
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lol. Why not come up with better solutions at lower cost instead of nothing but repeal?

Hyphens | Punctuation Rules
 
Pure capitalism will never work because of corporate greed...
 
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