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Thread: A thread for fellow Bernie supporters: a weakness in his campaign

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    Re: A thread for fellow Bernie supporters: a weakness in his campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig234 View Post
    And it could be argued he was way too soft on her for the country's good. This isn't about his being strong, but about his effectively countering the attacks. Again look at how trump was effective against 15 Republicans. It's not a flaw in Bernie so much, but a flaw in the voters trump's garbage works on.



    We're hoping his approach, which is mostly to say the same few things on policy, works.
    If there is one thing to learn from Bernie...never underestimate him.
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    Re: A thread for fellow Bernie supporters: a weakness in his campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    If there is one thing to learn from Bernie...never underestimate him.
    There are various things to learn from Bernie, that hasn't been one, but it is for some of his opponents. I've learned that repeating a few things for years can do far better than I thought it could, and that he was able to raise far more in small donations than I expected, for a couple things. What's important though especially is his ability to popularize progressive policies. Incredible.

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    Re: A thread for fellow Bernie supporters: a weakness in his campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig234 View Post
    Reporter to Bernie: "You say you're a socialist..."
    Bernie, interrupting and correcting: "Democratic Socialist".

    Bernie Derangement Syndrome victim says falsely: "he says he's a socialist"

    BDSV continues: "Matter of fact, he's got several he chooses depending upon his circumstances."
    Sometimes he corrects, and at others he does not. He's a socialist, an independent, a Democrat, democratic socialist . There are those folks that want to transpose and call him a Social Democrat. Point is he wanted to reclaim 'socialist ' from its negative connotation in this country and resurrect it as a positive descriptor of policy. I like that and endorse the effort. Its one of the real positives to having him run. So I will let him.

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    Re: A thread for fellow Bernie supporters: a weakness in his campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by btthegreat View Post
    Sometimes he corrects, and at others he does not. He's a socialist, an independent, a Democrat, democratic socialist . There are those folks that want to transpose and call him a Social Democrat. Point is he wanted to reclaim 'socialist ' from its negative connotation in this country and resurrect it as a positive descriptor of policy. I like that and endorse the effort.
    1. I'd like you to link to the last time he said simply 'I am a socialist'. 2. Terms like 'Democratic Socialist' and 'Democrat' are not 'changes'; one is a political party, the other is an economic viewpoint. 3. How about you be more honest by discussing his actual policies instead of trying find 'gotcha' label moments. 4. Yes, by claiming 'Democratic Socialist', he's done more than anyone in 75 years to de-demonize the term.

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    Re: A thread for fellow Bernie supporters: a weakness in his campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by HumblePi View Post
    You're living under fascism, Marxism sounds better than that.
    Marxism utopia always sounds good to those who are promised by devils a Utopian Marxist paradise to seditious rebels who burn the legitimate government to the ground in order to pave the way for the Marxists to move in and take control of the ashes.

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    Re: A thread for fellow Bernie supporters: a weakness in his campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by marke View Post
    Marxism utopia always sounds good to those who are promised by devils a Utopian Marxist paradise to seditious rebels who burn the legitimate government to the ground in order to pave the way for the Marxists to move in and take control of the ashes.
    Oh, fascists just love minds such as yours.







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    Re: A thread for fellow Bernie supporters: a weakness in his campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig234 View Post
    1. I'd like you to link to the last time he said simply 'I am a socialist'. 2. Terms like 'Democratic Socialist' and 'Democrat' are not 'changes'; one is a political party, the other is an economic viewpoint. 3. How about you be more honest by discussing his actual policies instead of trying find 'gotcha' label moments. 4. Yes, by claiming 'Democratic Socialist', he's done more than anyone in 75 years to de-demonize the term.
    Craig234, I looked back in a quick search. The last time on tape he referred to himself as a 'socialist' without a modifier, that I can find was about sometime in 2017.

    So all I am doing to do here is say you are 100% on every word here except when you say I was 'looking for a gotcha moment' If that were true this post would not read this way. I truly thought that he used them interchangeably in describing himself. I was wrong. He talks about socialism itself without the modifier, but in the last few years, he does not miss an opportunity to be more specific when referring to himself. From here on out, I will refer to him only as a Democratic Socialist to describe his political views.

    Honest mistake .I truly try to be fair to this man.
    Last edited by btthegreat; 02-12-20 at 11:43 PM.

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    Re: A thread for fellow Bernie supporters: a weakness in his campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by btthegreat View Post
    Craig234, I looked back in a quick search. The last time on tape he referred to himself as a 'socialist' without a modifier, that I can find was about sometime in 2017.

    So all I am doing to do here is say you are 100% on every word here except when you say I was 'looking for a gotcha moment' If that were true this post would not read this way. I truly thought that he used them interchangeably in describing himself. I was wrong. He talks about socialism itself without the modifier, but in the last few years, he does not miss an opportunity to be more specific when referring to himself. From here on out, I will refer to him only as a Democratic Socialist to describe his political views.

    Honest mistake .I truly try to be fair to this man.
    Thanks for the post. I accept your comments. When I referred to 'gotcha', what I meant was, fixating only on the label and completely ignoring what's more important, his actual policies, which are basically FDR principles - traditional American values and goals now becoming more possible. Perhaps you'd like to comment on his policies as well. Glad you considered the topic.

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    Re: A thread for fellow Bernie supporters: a weakness in his campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig234 View Post
    Thanks for the post. I accept your comments. When I referred to 'gotcha', what I meant was, fixating only on the label and completely ignoring what's more important, his actual policies, which are basically FDR principles - traditional American values and goals now becoming more possible. Perhaps you'd like to comment on his policies as well. Glad you considered the topic.
    Let me be clear here. When candidates or campaign discuss their policies I pretty much ignore most of it. I am focused on some patterns of how they think, a sense of their values, and priorities etc and tune out on details. They are so close to meaningless in a candidate. They don't even know the make-up of the Congress they need to sell this to, they have no imput from their cabinet choices, no sense of how the agencies feel about those policies and the practical implementation or implications. They are spouting of some ideals rather nave notions outside of a pollical world of voters and interest groups.

    I think it is probably better if I tell you what I think about Sanders in that broader context. He is not a policy wonk/detail man. He paints with broad strokes on his canvas. So did Obama and Reagan and Bushbaby. Clinton, Carter and Buttigieg are more detail oriented they like to dig into the nuts and bolts of legislation. Both sorts of leaders can be effective. In 2016 I checked into Sanders record on National defense/ foreign policy. I wanted to see when he supported the use of military power and when he did not. He is not a pacifist, but the case has to be extraordinarily compelling before he supports authorization. He voted in favor of giving Bushbaby some latitude in Afghanistan. I was satisfied that if pressed by circumstances, he would be willing to give the pentagon a go-a-head. The guy will focus on redistribution, health care reform, climate change and the regulation of corporate power and profit and strengthening unions. Social issues like abortion, affirmative action, reparations, gay rights, ERA, Gun reform, will take a second billing. He will address them in executive orders, but he will see major initiatives as distractions to his higher priorities. Obama was much the same way. He did not use much of his political capital on that stuff until his second term. Probably smart.


    My concerns are that he will see EVERYTHING in terms of his economic justice viewpoint and forget to see the social , religious and cultural dynamics as providing real important context as well. Everything that happens, is not actually driven by money. Matter of fact, a lot that happens is not primarily driven by money and while that is counter-intuitive to someone like Sanders he has learn to broaden how he sees issues if he intends to be effective. I am not sure that he has the political skills to move his agenda. Not sure if he will go out of his way to include more conservative voices in his white house staff and cabinet, and he needs some strong advocates further to his right to balance not only his natural inclinations, but who can stand up in a room full of progressive and be the only one to boldly articulate a lonely vision. I don't know if Bernie can distinguish a good deal, from a perfect deal. I don't know how good a manager/boss he is.

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    Re: A thread for fellow Bernie supporters: a weakness in his campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by btthegreat View Post
    My concerns are that he will see EVERYTHING in terms of his economic justice viewpoint and forget to see the social , religious and cultural dynamics as providing real important context as well. Everything that happens, is not actually driven by money. Matter of fact, a lot that happens is not primarily driven by money and while that is counter-intuitive to someone like Sanders he has learn to broaden how he sees issues if he intends to be effective. I am not sure that he has the political skills to move his agenda. Not sure if he will go out of his way to include more conservative voices in his white house staff and cabinet, and he needs some strong advocates further to his right to balance not only his natural inclinations, but who can stand up in a room full of progressive and be the only one to boldly articulate a lonely vision. I don't know if Bernie can distinguish a good deal, from a perfect deal. I don't know how good a manager/boss he is.
    I think you have both a bias against Bernie, and a tendency to make a fantasy version of him that reflects that. He can't win with you, unless he became a corporatist/centrist it seems. I think that plutocracy, and the majority of the American people not getting a fair share of the country's wealth and power, estroying democracy, is our country's biggest issue. You aren't at all specific about the actual 'dynamics' concerns you have. How does that affect his desire to see healthcare and education expanded? You aren't sure if he has the political skills? He does better than any other Democrat running. I don't want him to include 'more conservative voices' - how have trump and Bush 'included more progressive voices'? But he has a long track record of being among the best at making deals and working with Republicans to pass what's possible.

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