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Republicans Senators' choice

j brown's body said:
His biggest defender, Lindsey Graham, and one of his own lawyers, Alan Dershowitz have both said that a president doesn't need to commit a crime to be impeached.

Beyond that, the GAO has said he committed a crime.
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They would both me mistaken. "Treason, bribery, high crimes or misdemeanors" are all crimes and the only conditions contained within the US Constitution upon which a President may be impeached. Or are you going to attempt to argue that "[t]reason, bribery, high crimes or misdemeanors" are somehow not crimes?
 
Craig234 said:
1. Ignore the facts, the law, and the constitution, and acquit trump. This will give them a legacy forever of terrible corruption (on that - they already have it on policy), please the base, make them pariahs to non-Republicans, risk a massive electoral loss in 2020, and give them a lawless, out of control trump who will feel more than even no rules apply to him and all Republicans have to be his servants.

Not to make Hitler comparisons in other ways here, but it reminds me a bit of when German leaders thought they could control Hitler, and he ended up a powerful dictator with all of them at his mercy. It will cement Republicans as the party of trump and nothing more, nothing less. It'll be as if the Republicans had completely let Joe McCarthy own the party to chase votes.

2. Vote to remove trump. In my opinion, they'd be helping themselves long term, but it's not an attractive choice politically either. trump and his 90% of the party would largely be at war with all who did. It'd either be most of them, or split the party's politicians.

It'd be a very popular move with the rest of the country, but unlikely to get them many of those votes. They'd have some 'honor' for following their oaths, the constitution, but not much more. We'd have a president Mike Pence, who the obvious comparison to is Gerald Ford. Someone who was unpopular, and has done little to build support for him as president.

My point is, they have no 'good' choices in terms of a political win. They have to either take their no-trump medicine to get rid of the disease but have continuing side effects, or stay sick with a real threat of being crippled as trump takes over.

Blame? Republicans have been horribly corrupt which led voters to want someone like trump; those voters have caused this mess as a result. Like a drug addict who feels fine if they take the drug but it harms them, Republicans will 'feel fine' in the short term with their base if they acquit, but will make things a lot worse.

They'd like any out - to say the Democrats are wrong and they're right.

The Democrats have been far too effective for them to have that option outside their base. Sadly, there's probably a 95-98% chance they'll take option 1. We've seen a lot of them lying and attacking House Democrats; none who have said the excellent case by the Democrats is making them consider convicting trump.

At this point, it appears even a 'Nixon Tapes' event be would to unlikely change their votes - it's just pure corruption defending the crimes. They are now approving of a president committing crimes and completely using his powers to cover them up and denying Congress's oversight role forever. But they're painted into a corner with only those options. Whether they allow witnesses or not.
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Getting rid of Trump is like going off booze. You know its the healthy thing to do in the long run, but the withdraw symptoms could be fatal.
 
j brown's body said:
Getting rid of Trump is like going off booze. You know its the healthy thing to do in the long run, but the withdraw symptoms could be fatal.
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seems to me the country is pretty damn healthy on him.
 
j brown's body said:
"We need a favor though" are Trump's own words.
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You should check the transcript. Those are not Trump's own words.

See? This is a perfect illustration of the Trump hater's tactics. They spin and lie about what someone said to make the words mean something that wasn't said.

Schiffty pushed that tactic to it's ultimate in the opening remarks of his committee's public hearings.
 
Craig234 said:
It's exactly based on reality, which is why you think it isn't.
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What a childish thing to say.

Barely a step up from "Nanny, nanny, boo-boo..."
 
Craig234 said:
The Republican poster objections are tedious.

Imagine trump handed over all our military secrets to Putin.

Putin uses them to kill many US troops.

Democrats (not Republicans) impeach trump for doing so.

Republicans say, "the president is allowed to declassify anything he wants. He broke no law. Show the law he broke".
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When the Dems have rock solid evidence that your hypothetical scenario has happened, I'll support their impeachment efforts.

But keep in mind, I only think for myself. I don't follow herds. I'm not a Republican.
 
Piglet said:
Very melodramatic, but not based on reality.
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Everything is absolutely based in fact, nothing else. There hasn't been one word from any republican that has challenged a single fact presented. They can't. If the republican senators can turn a blind eye to all the evidence that was clearly established, then they can turn a blind eye to anything. And no, I'm not being melodramatic at just how vital the removal of Trump is to the survival of our democracy as it has been for 240 or so years.

If the republicans refuse to hold this president accountable then all presidents, from now and forever, will have pretty much a free ticket to do whatever they want. The bar for any future president has been lowered because the standard for impeachment will have been lowered forever.

Will you care if in 4 or 8 years from now a democrat running for president asks China, Iran or North Korea to help him or her win? Will it matter at all to you if this guy wins the election and begins doing things you've been fighting against for years like banning guns or appropriating millions of your tax dollars to fund abortion clinics in every town of every state in the country? What if that president decides to sell Alaska back to Russia and divide up that money he gets from Russia among his children and drops a few million into the US Treasury just to say he made you tons of money on that sale. None of that would be illegal and not impeachable. Is that going to be okay with you in 4 or 8 years? Will you be okay if the democratic controlled senate tells you that you're making it all up and it's just propaganda you believe. Well sir, it will be just too damned bad, won't it?
 
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Craig234 said:
1. Ignore the facts, the law, and the constitution, and acquit trump. This will give them a legacy forever of terrible corruption (on that - they already have it on policy), please the base, make them pariahs to non-Republicans, risk a massive electoral loss in 2020, and give them a lawless, out of control trump who will feel more than even no rules apply to him and all Republicans have to be his servants.
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Ignore what facts? schiff and nadler yelling and screaming treason treason treason is not fact. it is hyperbolic nonsense.
It is hard to ignore something when nothing of fact is presented.

Not to make Hitler comparisons in other ways here, but it reminds me a bit of when German leaders thought they could control Hitler, and he ended up a powerful dictator with all of them at his mercy. It will cement Republicans as the party of trump and nothing more, nothing less. It'll be as if the Republicans had completely let Joe McCarthy own the party to chase votes.
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here we have goodwins law in effect.

2. Vote to remove trump. In my opinion, they'd be helping themselves long term, but it's not an attractive choice politically either. trump and his 90% of the party would largely be at war with all who did. It'd either be most of them, or split the party's politicians.
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They don't need to remove trump if there is no evidence to remove trump with. I know your biased opinion can't grasp those kind of things but that is no one else's issue but yours.

Blame? Republicans have been horribly corrupt which led voters to want someone like trump; those voters have caused this mess as a result. Like a drug addict who feels fine if they take the drug but it harms them, Republicans will 'feel fine' in the short term with their base if they acquit, but will make things a lot worse.
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No what caused this was obama's crappy 8 years of president, and then nominating clinton.

The Democrats have been far too effective for them to have that option outside their base. Sadly, there's probably a 95-98% chance they'll take option 1. We've seen a lot of them lying and attacking House Democrats; none who have said the excellent case by the Democrats is making them consider convicting trump.
Click to expand...

How can you have an excellent case when you have no evidence? since when is an excellent case built on nothing but lies, speculation and hearsay?

At this point, it appears even a 'Nixon Tapes' event be would to unlikely change their votes - it's just pure corruption defending the crimes. They are now approving of a president committing crimes and completely using his powers to cover them up and denying Congress's oversight role forever. But they're painted into a corner with only those options. Whether they allow witnesses or not.
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[/QUOTE]

No that would actually be evidence.
It is not the senate job to do the house's.
if the house didn't have enough witnesses there is no need for them to call any.

the only witnesses we need to hear from now is the WB his 6 supposed sources
and schiff.
 
Mycroft said:
"Trump did this for his own political purposes."
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Well, since you can’t refute any of the evidence to the contrary, and are barely able to conduct any sort of discussion of the facts of the matter, and rely instead on slogans, memes and repeated lies, we already know that you can’t defend your assertion that Trump did this for anything other than his own personal gain.

Of course, that works two ways.

Moscow is clearly not pleased that the US is providing $400 million in military aid to Ukraine. And they want it stopped. And Trump’s activities over the last 10 months serve Moscow’s goal of holding up the aid.

There is no question that the Trump team fully intended to let the clock run out on the procedural moves needed to move the money. They got caught doing that.

This is what Moscow wanted. I suspect that they’re disgusted with the Trump clowns because Trump clearly didn’t know that the aid had been appropriated in the first place (he doesn’t read). Someone has to show him an article on it in a right wing trash blog!!!! (The irony there is delicious. The trash blog ran the story as part of the two faced right wing campaign to pretend that we supported Ukrine (as our official policy was, and is), while actually doing Putin’s bidding.


Few are under any illusion anymore regarding Trump’s loyalty to the Putin agenda.

He just engineered a humiliating American retreat from the Middle East, stepping aside so that the Russians could consolidate their growing influence in the Levant.

Trump stepped aside and looked the other way as the barrel bombs continued to fall, and then unilaterally withdrew American forces, betraying Syrian resistance forces and the Kurds.

Turkey’s Erdogen is moving toward Putin, and away from Trump and NATO.

Of course, since Trump has publicly declared that he wants and expect Russian covert assistance for his 2020 election, serving Putin’s agenda makes sense.

I’m sure that you’ll respond with the usual slogans and empty memes.

Meanwhile, after Trump is acquitted, the Russians will up their activities in Ukraine, or try and create some other crisis in the Middle East or Europe. Perhaps they will use their North Korean client state.

We already know what Trump will do.

Noisy chest beating and then nothing at all.
 
HumblePi said:
Everything is absolutely based in fact, nothing else. There hasn't been one word from any republican that has challenged a single fact presented. They can't. If the republican senators can turn a blind eye to all the evidence that was clearly established, then they can turn a blind eye to anything. And no, I'm not being melodramatic at just how vital the removal of Trump is to the survival of our democracy as it has been for 240 or so years.
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:doh That is because it is currently the bumblings squad turn. The defense is up next to present their defense. They get the same 24 hours.
do you not know how this process works? What FACTS? just because schiff and nadler want to yell and scream treason treason treason on the senate floor doesn't make it
a fact. Do you even know what a fact is?

A fact is a statement or declaration that is made and then supported by actual evidence that it is true. That is a fact.
yelling that russia is going to attack america and russia russia russia is not fact. It is called hyperbolic nonsense, but it is expected
when the people speaking did such a ****ty job in the hearing.

If the republicans refuse to hold this president accountable then all presidents, from now and forever, will have pretty much a free ticket to do whatever they want. The bar for any future president has been lowered because the standard for impeachment will have been lowered forever.
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Accountable for what? there is no crime here. there is no evidence of a crime? No the bar has been raised greatly from where the democrats want to be.
It will show that in order to execute and impeachment that you must actually present evidence and real evidence that a crime has been committed.
that one party cannot go on a partisan crusade to impeach a president simply because they lost an election.
No the bar will actually be raised up from the muck that democrats have lowered it to.

Will you care if in 4 or 8 years from now a democrat running for president asks China, Iran or North Korea to help him or her win? Will it matter at all to you if this guy wins the election and begins doing things you've been fighting against for years like banning guns or appropriating millions of your tax dollars to fund abortion clinics in every town of every state in the country? What if that president decides to sell Alaska back to Russia and divide up that money he gets from Russia among his children and drops a few million into the US Treasury just to say he made you tons of money on that sale. None of that would be illegal and not impeachable. Is that going to be okay with you in 4 or 8 years? Will you be okay if the democratic controlled senate tells you that you're making it all up and it's jt propaganda you believe. Well sir, it will be just too damned bad, won't it?
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Those things you mentions are a direct violation of the constitution and federal law.
trump has done nothing of the sort.

hyperbolic nonsense is dismissed for what it is.
 
TomFitz said:
Well, since you can’t refute any of the evidence to the contrary, and are barely able to conduct any sort of discussion of the facts of the matter, and rely instead on slogans, memes and repeated lies, we already know that you can’t defend your assertion that Trump did this for anything other than his own personal gain.
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That is not how this works. trump doesn't have to prove himself innocent the coup has to prove him guilty.

IE they have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he did it for person reasons.
why are you guys so backwards on this stuff.

you are not guilty and have to prove yourself innocent the new leftist motto.

scream they are a witch and they have to prove they are not a witch.
 
HumblePi said:
Everything is absolutely based in fact, nothing else. There hasn't been one word from any republican that has challenged a single fact presented. They can't. If the republican senators can turn a blind eye to all the evidence that was clearly established, then they can turn a blind eye to anything. And no, I'm not being melodramatic at just how vital the removal of Trump is to the survival of our democracy as it has been for 240 or so years.
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The post I said was not based in reality is the one where you made the erroneous claim that we're being destroyed from within and that we're a plutocracy. Both are false and border on histrionics.

If the republicans refuse to hold this president accountable then all presidents, from now and forever, will have pretty much a free ticket to do whatever they want. The bar for any future president has been lowered because the standard for impeachment will have been lowered forever.
Click to expand...

I remember the republicans saying the same silly thing when Clinton was impeached. With Trump, you're right, the bar has been lowered -- but it was lowered by the democrats who didn't have a just cause to impeach in the first place.

Will you care if in 4 or 8 years from now a democrat running for president asks China, Iran or North Korea to help him or her win? Will it matter at all to you if this guy wins the election and begins doing things you've been fighting against for years like banning guns or appropriating millions of your tax dollars to fund abortion clinics in every town of every state in the country? What if that president decides to sell Alaska back to Russia and divide up that money he gets from Russia among his children and drops a few million into the US Treasury just to say he made you tons of money on that sale. None of that would be illegal and not impeachable. Is that going to be okay with you in 4 or 8 years? Will you be okay if the democratic controlled senate tells you that you're making it all up and it's just propaganda you believe. Well sir, it will be just too damned bad, won't it?
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More histrionics - and these show an inherent lack of constitutional knowledge. Do you never tire of making things up?
 
Piglet said:
The post I said was not based in reality is the one where you made the erroneous claim that we're being destroyed from within and that we're a plutocracy. Both are false and border on histrionics.



I remember the republicans saying the same silly thing when Clinton was impeached. With Trump, you're right, the bar has been lowered -- but it was lowered by the democrats who didn't have a just cause to impeach in the first place.



More histrionics - and these show an inherent lack of constitutional knowledge. Do you never tire of making things up?
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Everything I claimed is the truth.
 
HumblePi said:
Everything I claimed is the truth.
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Nothing you claimed is truth. It's just a hodge-podge of convoluted conjecture. Like it was posted by someone under the influence of hallucinogens or something. One of the worst cases of histrionics I've ever seen.
 
Piglet said:
The post I said was not based in reality is the one where you made the erroneous claim that we're being destroyed from within and that we're a plutocracy. Both are false and border on histrionics.
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Both are quite correct, and it only shows how you are not in touch with reality for you to say what you do. It'd like one German citizen saying in 1934 "Hitler will take us to disastrous war" based on what they saw, and a blinded Hitler supporter saying "that's false and borders on histrionics. He loves peace and hates war!"

I remember the republicans saying the same silly thing when Clinton was impeached. With Trump, you're right, the bar has been lowered -- but it was lowered by the democrats who didn't have a just cause to impeach in the first place.
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Actually, you're right. Republicans have spouted insanity about Democrats - they're lawless tyrants destroying our country and the constitution. One of the harms of THEIR crying wolf is that it makes some think it's equally false in another situation where the claims are not false. It's hard to help a cult member realize they are one.
 
Piglet said:
Nothing you claimed is truth. It's just a hodge-podge of convoluted conjecture. Like it was posted by someone under the influence of hallucinogens or something. One of the worst cases of histrionics I've ever seen.
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You really are earning an irony of the day award.

You say his claims of plutocracy are false. Not truth. Convoluted conjecture like hallucinations.

No, that would fit your denial. This is real, not false:

Screen_Shot_2018_07_29_at_10.27.09_AM.png
 
The republicans have the same choice as the democrats...simply answer the question. Did the democrats evidence for impeachment support their articles of impeachment. The answer to that question is absolutely not. The house rats voted to impeach with what they apparently claim was incomplete evidence, which pretty clearly is an admission that their entire impeachment vote was nothing but a partisan sham. Of all the actual witnesses they called in their sham hearings (the house rats DENIED the GOP their witnesses) 17 admitted under oath that they had no knowledge of a crime committed by the president while 1 stated directly that the president SPECIFICALLY told him he did NOT want anything in exchange for the money. None of the 18 witnesses THEY CALLED supported their vote...yet...they voted to impeach. Because the whole thing was a partisan sham. It is then the Senates job to listen to their impeachment argument...and after doing so ALL senators should come to the same conclusion...the House rats committed a farce of an impeachment based solely on their partisan hatred that has been brewing (and is evidenced by the words of the house managers) over the last 3 years.

Far from scoring points, the House rats are desperate to call new and more witnesses...because they know they dont have a case. They also have NO IDEA if the new witnesses would support their case. Which again very clearly demonstrates that this was all a rat party partisan witch hunt.

The choice for the senate is obvious. This farce of an impeachment should be thrown out.
 
ludin said:
That is not how this works. trump doesn't have to prove himself innocent the coup has to prove him guilty.

IE they have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he did it for person reasons.
why are you guys so backwards on this stuff.

you are not guilty and have to prove yourself innocent the new leftist motto.

scream they are a witch and they have to prove they are not a witch.
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That may be so during a (real) criminal trial, but not during an impeachment "trial". Bill Clinton openly admitted to felony perjury and yet was acquitted of that impeachment charge. During the impeachment "trial" process, it does not matter what is "proven" or even if guilt is admitted to - what matters is getting 67 votes to remove or the "accused" remains in office.
 
Craig234 said:
Both are quite correct, and it only shows how you are not in touch with reality for you to say what you do. It'd like one German citizen saying in 1934 "Hitler will take us to disastrous war" based on what they saw, and a blinded Hitler supporter saying "that's false and borders on histrionics. He loves peace and hates war!"
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Neither are correct. LOL Take a civics class and quit invoking Godwin's Law -- it destroys any shred of credibility you might have had.


Actually, you're right. Republicans have spouted insanity about Democrats - they're lawless tyrants destroying our country and the constitution. One of the harms of THEIR crying wolf is that it makes some think it's equally false in another situation where the claims are not false. It's hard to help a cult member realize they are one.
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And, now the democrats are spouting insanity.
 
Craig234 said:
1. Ignore the facts, the law, and the constitution, and acquit trump. This will give them a legacy forever of terrible corruption (on that - they already have it on policy), please the base, make them pariahs to non-Republicans, risk a massive electoral loss in 2020, and give them a lawless, out of control trump who will feel more than even no rules apply to him and all Republicans have to be his servants.

Not to make Hitler comparisons in other ways here, but it reminds me a bit of when German leaders thought they could control Hitler, and he ended up a powerful dictator with all of them at his mercy. It will cement Republicans as the party of trump and nothing more, nothing less. It'll be as if the Republicans had completely let Joe McCarthy own the party to chase votes.

2. Vote to remove trump. In my opinion, they'd be helping themselves long term, but it's not an attractive choice politically either. trump and his 90% of the party would largely be at war with all who did. It'd either be most of them, or split the party's politicians.

It'd be a very popular move with the rest of the country, but unlikely to get them many of those votes. They'd have some 'honor' for following their oaths, the constitution, but not much more. We'd have a president Mike Pence, who the obvious comparison to is Gerald Ford. Someone who was unpopular, and has done little to build support for him as president.

My point is, they have no 'good' choices in terms of a political win. They have to either take their no-trump medicine to get rid of the disease but have continuing side effects, or stay sick with a real threat of being crippled as trump takes over.

Blame? Republicans have been horribly corrupt which led voters to want someone like trump; those voters have caused this mess as a result. Like a drug addict who feels fine if they take the drug but it harms them, Republicans will 'feel fine' in the short term with their base if they acquit, but will make things a lot worse.

They'd like any out - to say the Democrats are wrong and they're right.

The Democrats have been far too effective for them to have that option outside their base. Sadly, there's probably a 95-98% chance they'll take option 1. We've seen a lot of them lying and attacking House Democrats; none who have said the excellent case by the Democrats is making them consider convicting trump.

At this point, it appears even a 'Nixon Tapes' event be would to unlikely change their votes - it's just pure corruption defending the crimes. They are now approving of a president committing crimes and completely using his powers to cover them up and denying Congress's oversight role forever. But they're painted into a corner with only those options. Whether they allow witnesses or not.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the planet where up is down, black is white, right is wrong, truth is fiction
 
Craig234 said:
You really are earning an irony of the day award.

You say his claims of plutocracy are false. Not truth. Convoluted conjecture like hallucinations.

No, that would fit your denial. This is real, not false:

Screen_Shot_2018_07_29_at_10.27.09_AM.png
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WTF...???


Have taken leave of your senses? What are you attempting to illustrate with that generic chart?

I'm just laughing now, dude.

You really are not good at this.
 
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