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Bernie Sanders nearly doubles support in New Hampshire; from 17% to 29%.

Obscurity said:
Odds I'd say are 50/50. Sanders getting Rogan's nod is actually relatively huge since his audience tends to be libertarian right wing.

Sanders resonates with a voter base the democrats have not activated. It's like Trump in 2016.
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Great point. It's why I believe Sanders would have beaten Trump in '16.
 
Chomsky said:
If I could wave a magic wand, I'd have every child in America learn math through calculus - along with a solid intro stats class.
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What are the odds of that? (SeewhatIdidthere) (And I agree)
 
Chomsky said:
[/B]Great point. It's why I believe Sanders would have beaten Trump in '16.
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There's really not much question, just a lot of Hillary partisans who make up alternative claims.
 
Obscurity said:
Odds I'd say are 50/50. Sanders getting Rogan's nod is actually relatively huge since his audience tends to be libertarian right wing.

Sanders resonates with a voter base the democrats have not activated. It's like Trump in 2016.
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If he can energize the voting base, he could win. It would be interesting to have an honest president working for the People, after the 4 years we just had. But I'm not sure if Sander's plans are achievable or how much it would cost. And I'm not sure he'll actually make it out with the DNC nomination. We will see though, it should be an interesting 2020.
 
Obscurity said:
Yep; and they're shielding their audience to engineer a response. It's so blatantly abusive and propagandizing it's absurd. All the endless complaints from them about the media are nothing but a hollow representation of projection on a scale never before seen.

And that's the most sickening part.

These folks are being so openly abused and gaslighted it's absurd.
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It's actually beyond what the real-life Chomsky calls, "manufacturing consent".

But yes, it is abusive of not just us but also the Trump supporters. But those supporters are not always naive, misinformed, misled consumers of propaganda. Quite a few are fully cognizant, but are acting out of their desire of political expediency! The Trumpian-GOP F.U.D gives them a "permission slip".
 
Obscurity said:
Odds I'd say are 50/50. Sanders getting Rogan's nod is actually relatively huge since his audience tends to be libertarian right wing.

Sanders resonates with a voter base the democrats have not activated. It's like Trump in 2016.
Click to expand...

The people who don't understand that is the centrist/corporatist wing of the Democratic Party, who just hate Bernie for reasons from weird to his opposition to party corruption.

I've said since 2016 Bernie is a historic candidate - the people almost never have the chance to actually elect someone who represented the people and reverse the corruption and move to plutocracy. It's why he's unique in having higher appeal to all sides of the spectrum, and he guts trump's cons of faux populism.
 
Chomsky said:
It's actually beyond what the real-life Chomsky calls, "manufacturing consent".

But yes, it is abusive of not just us but also the Trump supporters. But those supporters are not always naive, misinformed, misled consumers of propaganda. Quite a few are fully cognizant, but are acting out of their desire of political expediency! The Trumpian-GOP F.U.D gives them a "permission slip".
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It's sad to see so many "red blooded patriots" are so willing to be lead around like cattle.

But what can you do?
 
Craig234 said:
The people who don't understand that is the centrist/corporatist wing of the Democratic Party, who just hate Bernie for reasons from weird to his opposition to party corruption.

I've said since 2016 Bernie is a historic candidate - the people almost never have the chance to actually elect someone who represented the people and reverse the corruption and move to plutocracy. It's why he's unique in having higher appeal to all sides of the spectrum, and he guts trump's cons of faux populism.
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Yep!!
 
Craig234 said:
The people who don't understand that is the centrist/corporatist wing of the Democratic Party, who just hate Bernie for reasons from weird to his opposition to party corruption.

I've said since 2016 Bernie is a historic candidate - the people almost never have the chance to actually elect someone who represented the people and reverse the corruption and move to plutocracy. It's why he's unique in having higher appeal to all sides of the spectrum, and he guts trump's cons of faux populism.
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What's also important is it shows the fascistic obsession with market fundamentalism has finally cracked. People are questioning capitalism now, and justly so. Libertarianism is not marketism, if that makes sense, it does if you're a right wing libertarian.

For me, the market has left so many folks behind. Americans have been starved of european style socialist policies and programs and are finally breaking out of the bondage of indoctrination and questioning the plutocrats and economic despots that have commandeered the conversation for far too long.

THAT is what makes Sanders so revolutionary. Not that he is a socialist; he's not, and anyone who knows the minutiae and nomenclature of economic systems know he is a social democrat who believes some areas of the market must be socialized, while others should remain totally free.

BUT, the cieling has finally cracked. Market fundamentalism and the black listing of Marx and other economic thinkers has FINALLY become something Americans are asking questions about. That's one thing we can thank Fox News for; their endless cries of wolf have lead people to actually investigate these things.

Talk about Karma.
 
Obscurity said:
It's sad to see so many "red blooded patriots" are so willing to be lead around like cattle.

But what can you do?
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Straight-up? Many Trump supporters feel Trump's worth it. They want Supreme Court Justices, abortion over-turned, illegal immigration addressed, and globally caused economic hardship addressed.

They perceive Trump is doing all the above, and believe that Trump is their last chance before the country irrevocably slips away from them. And in their assessment of the country slipping away from them, they are right - for better or worse.
 
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Obscurity said:
What's also important is it shows the fascistic obsession with market fundamentalism has finally cracked. People are questioning capitalism now, and justly so. Libertarianism is not marketism, if that makes sense, it does if you're a right wing libertarian.

For me, the market has left so many folks behind. Americans have been starved of european style socialist policies and programs and are finally breaking out of the bondage of indoctrination and questioning the plutocrats and economic despots that have commandeered the conversation for far too long.

THAT is what makes Sanders so revolutionary. Not that he is a socialist; he's not, and anyone who knows the minutiae and nomenclature of economic systems know he is a social democrat who believes some areas of the market must be socialized, while others should remain totally free.

BUT, the cieling has finally cracked. Market fundamentalism and the black listing of Marx and other economic thinkers has FINALLY become something Americans are asking questions about. That's one thing we can thank Fox News for; their endless cries of wolf have lead people to actually investigate these things.

Talk about Karma.
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Fundamental to why America cannot understand or discuss economics is that our terms are propaganda. "Capitalism" means everything from Koch brothers destroying the environment to mom and pop selling ice cream. You rarely hear about the real biggest problem, plutocracy, while you constantly hear about things that basically don't exist, socialism and communism. We need better words for the actual issues.

It'd be like trying to discuss race issues in the 1960's but not allowing the words "black" or "race" in the discussion, so that any point to be made required a paragraph to define the terms.

We don't even have words for things like the hybrid economy of capitalism and 'socialist' programs that is the only system we've actually had and that actually works; and we don't have clear words for things like 'the bad parts' and 'the good parts' of capitalism.

How are people going to make sense when they don't even have words for the issues and just see propagandists ranting?
 
Chomsky said:
Straight-up? Many Trump supporters feel Trump's worth it. They want Supreme Court Justices, abortion over-turned, illegal immigration addressed, and globally caused economic hardship addressed.

They perceive Trump is doing all the above, and believe that trump is their last chance before the country turns irrevocably slips away from them. And in their assessment of the country slipping away from them, they are right - for better or worse.
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You're right, and maybe they should get their way, if only for them to finally see the ashes they have created come to fruition.

Then again, it's not, in my estimation, solely those reasons. There is also this:

Poll: GOP Fox viewers largely against Trump impeachment before inquiry - Business Insider

The tell:

The poll found his support to be particularly strong among GOP Fox News viewers: 55% of Republicans who identified Fox News as their primary news source said there was nothing Trump could do to lose their approval, compared with 29% of other Republicans.
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Think about how astounding this is. The largest watched "news" network, which shields its viewers from the actual words being said at the trial, has propagandized almost to completion 55% of their right wing base into saying Trump can literally do anything and they will still support him.

THAT is what will cost us our republic; Not cocaine mitch.

Rupert Murdoch and Fox News.

The MSM will actually destroy this nation.
 
Obscurity said:
What's also important is it shows the fascistic obsession with market fundamentalism has finally cracked. People are questioning capitalism now, and justly so. Libertarianism is not marketism, if that makes sense, it does if you're a right wing libertarian.

For me, the market has left so many folks behind. Americans have been starved of european style socialist policies and programs and are finally breaking out of the bondage of indoctrination and questioning the plutocrats and economic despots that have commandeered the conversation for far too long.

THAT is what makes Sanders so revolutionary. Not that he is a socialist; he's not, and anyone who knows the minutiae and nomenclature of economic systems know he is a social democrat who believes some areas of the market must be socialized, while others should remain totally free.

BUT, the cieling has finally cracked. Market fundamentalism and the black listing of Marx and other economic thinkers has FINALLY become something Americans are asking questions about. That's one thing we can thank Fox News for; their endless cries of wolf have lead people to actually investigate these things.

Talk about Karma.
Click to expand...

You are correct here. I am an avowed capitalist. I strongly believe capitalism is the way forward. But for capitalism to succeed, it must be practiced with social restraint.

It all comes down to one's philosophy:

1] Is society bound and subject to its economic system?

or,

2] Is our economic system a tool of society?

I obviously support premise #2.
 
Obscurity said:
Think about how astounding this is. The largest watched "news" network, which shields its viewers from the actual words being said at the trial, has propagandized almost to completion 55% of their right wing base into saying Trump can literally do anything and they will still support him.

THAT is what will cost us our republic; Not cocaine mitch.

Rupert Murdoch and Fox News.

The MSM will actually destroy this nation.
Click to expand...

There's really a lot more to the issue. For a start, why isn't the question, why are all the OTHER media outlets doing to badly at reaching those audiences? This isn't China or Russia with only Pravda, and even THERE, Russians widely did not trust Pravda, understanding it was government propaganda far more than Fox viewers.

I would argue there is more to why those viewers are so susceptible to getting brainwashed, and part of that is how much money and machinery - it's called 'the Right-wing noise machine' - there is for the brute force of volume and repetition to influence them.
 
Obscurity said:
You're right, and maybe they should get their way, if only for them to finally see the ashes they have created come to fruition.

Then again, it's not, in my estimation, solely those reasons. There is also this:

Poll: GOP Fox viewers largely against Trump impeachment before inquiry - Business Insider

The tell:



Think about how astounding this is. The largest watched "news" network, which shields its viewers from the actual words being said at the trial, has propagandized almost to completion 55% of their right wing base into saying Trump can literally do anything and they will still support him.

THAT is what will cost us our republic; Not cocaine mitch.

Rupert Murdoch and Fox News.

The MSM will actually destroy this nation.
Click to expand...
Agreed. McConnel doesn't fear Trump. He fears his rank & file voters supporting Trump.
 
Chomsky said:
You are correct here. I am an avowed capitalist. I strongly believe capitalism is the way forward. But for capitalism to succeed, it must be practiced with social restraint.

It all comes down to one's philosophy:

1] Is society bound and subject to its economic system?

or,

2] Is our economic system a tool of society?

I obviously support premise #2.
Click to expand...

For decades, my first question to help someone find if they're 'left' or 'right' has been, are you a member of the human race first and a citizen of your country second, or the other way around?

You ask another good question. And it's only a question because our inequality has led people to be blinded to the very idea of 'the people' as being a priority, instead of only business profits. And that's become another 'dividing question' for our citizenry. I saw that starting when I saw Reagan using 'capitalism' and 'democracy' as equally important terms - and I'd argue, capitalism has taken the #1 spot for Republicans.
 
Craig234 said:
There's really a lot more to the issue. For a start, why isn't the question, why are all the OTHER media outlets doing to badly at reaching those audiences? This isn't China or Russia with only Pravda, and even THERE, Russians widely did not trust Pravda, understanding it was government propaganda far more than Fox viewers.

I would argue there is more to why those viewers are so susceptible to getting brainwashed, and part of that is how much money and machinery - it's called 'the Right-wing noise machine' - there is for the brute force of volume and repetition to influence them.
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No, without trying to too badly disparage them, there is more going-on with these supporters intrinsically in their persons. We are all different individuals. Their make-up is such that this is how they respond to the outside stimulus they're subject to. I'm sure they say the same of us, and they're right about that too.

If the point is hit where the majority of the country feels the way they do, then we have to admit this is now the American way.
 
Craig234 said:
There's really a lot more to the issue. For a start, why isn't the question, why are all the OTHER media outlets doing to badly at reaching those audiences? This isn't China or Russia with only Pravda, and even THERE, Russians widely did not trust Pravda, understanding it was government propaganda far more than Fox viewers.

I would argue there is more to why those viewers are so susceptible to getting brainwashed, and part of that is how much money and machinery - it's called 'the Right-wing noise machine' - there is for the brute force of volume and repetition to influence them.
Click to expand...

There are more issues to it then that; and yes, Fox news is brute force, along with everything else they do.

It's 1984 all over again!
 
Chomsky said:
No, without trying to too badly disparage them, there is more going-on with these supporters intrinsically in their persons. We are all different individuals. Their make-up is such that this is how they respond to the outside stimulus they're subject to. I'm sure they say the same of us, and they're right about that too.

If the point is hit where the majority of the country feels the way they do, then we have to admit this is now the American way.
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It's not just some random 'condition' that no one is taking advantage of.

The topic, IMO, is more complicated about how 40% of Americans are made into stepford wives in a cult - and not only how but a lot more about who is doing it and why.
 
Chomsky said:
You are correct here. I am an avowed capitalist. I strongly believe capitalism is the way forward. But for capitalism to succeed, it must be practiced with social restraint.

It all comes down to one's philosophy:

1] Is society bound and subject to its economic system?

or,

2] Is our economic system a tool of society?

I obviously support premise #2.
Click to expand...

I personally am for capitalism where it makes sense. Cell phones? Sure. Healthcare? No.

Profit motives make sense in some areas; education, healthcare, no, they do not make sense.

Then again, I am more anti-capitalist then I am purely socialist or even social democrat.
 
Chomsky said:
Agreed. McConnel doesn't fear Trump. He fears his rank & file voters supporting Trump.
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And his rank and file are adamantly discussing civil war, revolution, etc, if Trump is removed. It's become a cult of personality, and I personally do not give a damn how they feel about that statement.
 
Craig234 said:
For decades, my first question to help someone find if they're 'left' or 'right' has been, are you a member of the human race first and a citizen of your country second, or the other way around?
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Great observation. I go even one further, I let the other person open-endedly name their highest identification.

For example, my highest identity is my moral-ethical identity I've developed as a Roman Catholic. So, Roman Catholicism is my highest identity (though along with my belief we are all brethren). Immediately afterwards, is my identity as the head of my family. Only after that, would come my nationality.

But I can't tell you how much I love this country and the Constitution. Truman & Eisenhower gave my family refuge from Hitler's Europe. But if America goes against my personal values, or against my family, and I can't right her, my personal values and my family comes first. I have no hesitation to that.

You ask another good question. And it's only a question because our inequality has led people to be blinded to the very idea of 'the people' as being a priority, instead of only business profits. And that's become another 'dividing question' for our citizenry. I saw that starting when I saw Reagan using 'capitalism' and 'democracy' as equally important terms - and I'd argue, capitalism has taken the #1 spot for Republicans.
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Yes, they're conflating democracy with capitalism. But not just "capitalism" in general, but plutocratic capitalism leading into fascism. When we start leaning to mercenary military, as I believe we are starting to see, we are starting down the fascist trail ...
 
aociswundumho said:
What criteria are you using to make the determination?
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Where profit motive becomes a detriment to society as a whole, and stifles freedom, I oppose free market fundamentalism.

For example. I cannot leave my job for another without a fear of being bankrupted by sudden illness; This stifles economic fluidity, and, is a tool employers use to keep employees hostage.

I cannot freely vacation, because my insurance company tells me who I can see for my ills, and if I have an accident, I can be bankrupted on vacation thanks to the tyranny of a market system that controls my ability to freely move my capital as I see fit.
 
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