• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

How poor is Africa

P.S.

Serious and impartial observers say that many young men in Africa have given up hope for any improvement in their lives.

So they have decided to emigrate, especially to Europe.

Regardless of any legal barriers erected by European countries, they will be coming.

Those observers predict that eventually up to 25% of the European population may have African ancestry.


*****

When some Europeans express dismay at the amount of immigration, some immigrants are reported to reply: "We are here because you were there."
 
CaughtInThe said:
it's as poor as North America use to be.
Click to expand...

North America wasn't always industrial. But it never had anything like the poverty in Africa. And North America got richer, not poorer, with time.
 
AmNat said:
The reason why Africa is poor and misgoverned is because it is run and inhabited by Africans. The only hope they have of any level of prosperity is if they're ruled over by benevolent foreigners. Unfortunately for Africans, Europeans no longer have the moral self-confidence to rule over others, so they're basically SOL. China may improve their lot, or it may literally enslave them, only time will tell.
Click to expand...

So you are blaming it entirely on race? You think Africans are an inferior race? That can't possibly explain it, since the African race is almost identical with the white race, and all others. Same kind of brain, same kind of DNA. Different skin color, hair, and features. No possible genetic reason for African leaders to be corrupt.
 
Craig234 said:
It's a complicated topic. Two things to note are that unfortunately, people have a tendency to 'blame the victim', and that African poverty plays into racists' incorrect beliefs.

There are no easy answers IMO. What would you think of a country where corruption leads to a few taking most of the wealth, while workers are paid starvation wages, dying of poverty, while 10 year old children work long hours six days a week in dangerous conditions, and if they try to work together to bring improvements, the government sends in troops to kill them?

The country where those terrible conditions exist, of course, is gilded age United States.

We had a political system, luckily, however, which led to reforms after decades - the progressive movement made the Senate elected instead of corruptly appointed, ended child labor, created a right for workers to organize, created government regulation for safety, and so on.

African countries don't have our political system and our rights for the people, and it's all too easy for tyrants to rule oppressively and take wealth for themselves - especially but not only when foreign powers sometimes put such leaders in power who will serve them rather than their country.

Perhaps the most notable leader who wanted to improve things for Africa, make it a democratic region better for the people, was the first elected leader of the Congo. JFK agreed and looked forward to making him his partner in Africa. So, the Eisenhower administration had him assassinated after JFK was elected before taking office.

But sometimes pictures tell a story.

The moment President Kennedy, weeks after taking office, learned of Lumumba's assassination, the White House photographer was tking pictures of him on the phone when he was told. It's probably the most anguished you've ever seen JFK. The author of a book on JFK's forgotten Africa policies put it on his book's cover. It's a complicated issue.
Click to expand...


Absolute, brainwashed, progressive nonsense. China and Russia have plenty of corruption and unfairness, but they don't have anything like the poverty and extreme corruption that exists in Africa. And China is getting rich.

You will take any example from history anywhere, and twist it to fit your socialist ideology.
 
TheParser said:
Nice to know that an article that tells the brutal (albeit hurtful) truth was actually published in the Nation, a magazine that I hear is very leftish and would be expected to follow the party line that the horrible conditions of that continent are all due to the big, mean colonialists!
Click to expand...

That's why I posted it. You don't often see honest journalism anywhere anymore. This article tells the facts, however politically incorrect they might seem to be. I seldom read The Nation, because I expect it to be ideological and biased. So I was glad to see that they aren't always.
 
Craig234 said:
I don't know anyone who says they're "all" due to colonialists. The left largely tells the truth, as you note in this case, unlike presumably your side which would like to say colonization was NONE of the cause, just as your post has not a word to say about that harm.
Click to expand...

:lamo The left largely tells the truth! :lamo:lamo:lamo
 
Good4Nothin said:
Absolute, brainwashed, progressive nonsense. China and Russia have plenty of corruption and unfairness, but they don't have anything like the poverty and extreme corruption that exists in Africa. And China is getting rich.

You will take any example from history anywhere, and twist it to fit your socialist ideology.
Click to expand...

Sorry you missed it, but I indicated this is not a topic for you:

It's a complicated topic.
Click to expand...
 
beerftw said:
Their poverty is a combination of multiple acts, Colonialism robbed them of their resources, and in many forms that still happens today, while their own tribes and factions infighting prevents them from any economic recovery or stability. I think your article is to linear in thought.
Click to expand...

Colonialism robbed Africa of much of its resources, but it still has massive amounts of resources, far more so than the Colonizers were ever able to take. Many African nations still have incredible mineral, petrochemical and natural wealth. The problem isn't resource stripping. The problem is endemic corruption and internecine conflict, a great deal of which was set in motion by Colonizers.
 
Craig234 said:
And really, when you look at it, consider how opposed the US is to the word 'genocide' for what it did to how many millions of natives? This whole 'we're better than them, so enslave them, colonize them, or kill them' mentality was dominant. No wonder people look at the white European/American forces as such a scourge to so many, despite the good that has also come. Brush it under the rug...

I do think it's a fair challenge for the left, besides noting how much hindsight affects our views and how nearly impossible it would have been to change those policies, to ask us to re-write a plausible, more humanitarian history.

Really, there aren't many versions of American history that are at all plausible or make any sense in which the natives continue to this day to dominate the larger part of the country, simply out of respecting their rights. And that largely leaves a question of 'more human' ways that the United States would take control of the country.

While the usual debate is the right saying 'who care snowflakes' and the left is saying 'we should recognize the history of how many were murdered', the real issue of how it SHOULD have happened is much more difficult, raising a lot of issues that aren't answered by simple principles, whether 'eminent domain' on the right or 'total respect for sovereignty' implied by the left.
Click to expand...

I am not speaking for others, but I for one am so tired of hearing that same old broken record. It is recited by people who are obviously programmed. Successful societies bad, oppressed losers good.

Do you know how many Africans were killed by other African tribes all through the centuries? How many native Americans were killed by other native American tribes? How many of every race, tribe, nationality, ethnic group, killed each other? Do you EVER think about that AT ALL?

I didn't think so.

And besides all that -- Africans weren't the only race that was colonized by Europeans, not the only race that was hated by Europeans. Jews were hated and beaten and oppressed EVERYWHERE. We sure as heck didn't end up poor, in general. In fact, you leftists now hate Israel because of its success and prosperity.

When Chinese first came to the US, they were HATED. So they started laundries and restaurants. Are they poor and oppressed here now?

We DO NOT KNOW why Africa is such a wreck, and why it doesn't get better. Racist explanations don't make sense, but leftist explanations are no better.

So now there is Jeffrey Sachs begging for MORE and MORE money to be poured into Africa and stolen by corrupt leaders.
 
Luther said:
Don't show this to the guy who started the "How big is Africa" thread(LOL)
Click to expand...

This thread was supposed to be a response to that one.
 
TheParser said:
P.S.

Serious and impartial observers say that many young men in Africa have given up hope for any improvement in their lives.

So they have decided to emigrate, especially to Europe.

Regardless of any legal barriers erected by European countries, they will be coming.

Those observers predict that eventually up to 25% of the European population may have African ancestry.


*****

When some Europeans express dismay at the amount of immigration, some immigrants are reported to reply: "We are here because you were there."
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, it feels better to blame someone else.
 
Good4Nothin said:
Since you didn't read it, you can't comment on it. The article says there are multiple factors. But the MAIN factor is the corruption of the leaders. The article doesn't say WHY there have been so many corrupt leaders.

Colonialism can't be such a big factor, since there has been colonialism on other continents. India, for example, has not continued getting poorer and poorer. Just the opposite.
Click to expand...

Good points. Korea was a colony of Japan and just look at it now

(I once went from living in Zaire - now once again the Congo - directly to South Korea. Up until then I had thought that people were much the same the world over).
 
Good4Nothin said:
I am not speaking for others, but I for one am so tired of hearing that same old broken record. It is recited by people who are obviously programmed. Successful societies bad, oppressed losers good.

Do you know how many Africans were killed by other African tribes all through the centuries? How many native Americans were killed by other native American tribes? How many of every race, tribe, nationality, ethnic group, killed each other? Do you EVER think about that AT ALL?

I didn't think so.

And besides all that -- Africans weren't the only race that was colonized by Europeans, not the only race that was hated by Europeans. Jews were hated and beaten and oppressed EVERYWHERE. We sure as heck didn't end up poor, in general. In fact, you leftists now hate Israel because of its success and prosperity.

When Chinese first came to the US, they were HATED. So they started laundries and restaurants. Are they poor and oppressed here now?

We DO NOT KNOW why Africa is such a wreck, and why it doesn't get better. Racist explanations don't make sense, but leftist explanations are no better.

So now there is Jeffrey Sachs begging for MORE and MORE money to be poured into Africa and stolen by corrupt leaders.
Click to expand...

It is also worth noting that the earliest colonisers in Africa were Arabs, not Europeans.
 
Felis Leo said:
Colonialism robbed Africa of much of its resources, but it still has massive amounts of resources, far more so than the Colonizers were ever able to take. Many African nations still have incredible mineral, petrochemical and natural wealth. The problem isn't resource stripping. The problem is endemic corruption and internecine conflict, a great deal of which was set in motion by Colonizers.
Click to expand...

NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, has forced African leaders to continue corruption that you think was all started by the colonialists.
 
The Berlin Conference divided up the continent among spheres of influence, and those spheres arbitrarily drew lines putting tribes that often either hated each other, or grew to hate each other, together into a single colony/country. Sort of what happened in Europe but without the "genteel" Europeans doing the organizing.
 
Good4Nothin said:
I am not speaking for others, but I for one am so tired of hearing that same old broken record. It is recited by people who are obviously programmed. Successful societies bad, oppressed losers good.

Do you know how many Africans were killed by other African tribes all through the centuries? How many native Americans were killed by other native American tribes? How many of every race, tribe, nationality, ethnic group, killed each other? Do you EVER think about that AT ALL?

I didn't think so.

And besides all that -- Africans weren't the only race that was colonized by Europeans, not the only race that was hated by Europeans. Jews were hated and beaten and oppressed EVERYWHERE. We sure as heck didn't end up poor, in general. In fact, you leftists now hate Israel because of its success and prosperity.

When Chinese first came to the US, they were HATED. So they started laundries and restaurants. Are they poor and oppressed here now?

We DO NOT KNOW why Africa is such a wreck, and why it doesn't get better. Racist explanations don't make sense, but leftist explanations are no better.

So now there is Jeffrey Sachs begging for MORE and MORE money to be poured into Africa and stolen by corrupt leaders.
Click to expand...

you should stop talking and making yourself more idiotic than you've repeatedly done; we know you won't because you seem to have an obsession to keep doing so.
 
AliHajiSheik said:
The Berlin Conference divided up the continent among spheres of influence, and those spheres arbitrarily drew lines putting tribes that often either hated each other, or grew to hate each other, together into a single colony/country. Sort of what happened in Europe but without the "genteel" Europeans doing the organizing.
Click to expand...

Something like that happened in the Middle East, but you don't see the same level of poverty and corruption there.
 
RealityNow said:
you should stop talking and making yourself more idiotic than you've repeatedly done; we know you won't because you seem to have an obsession to keep doing so.
Click to expand...

Maybe this post isn't politically correct enough for you. But, as I said repeatedly, I got all this information from the Nation article I linked. So you must think the article is idiotic. But I'm sure you didn't read it.
 
Good4Nothin said:
Something like that happened in the Middle East, but you don't see the same level of poverty and corruption there.
Click to expand...

I would think that the comparative levels of society in each area were dramatically different when those consolidations happened.
 
Good4Nothin said:
Maybe this post isn't politically correct enough for you. But, as I said repeatedly, I got all this information from the Nation article I linked. So you must think the article is idiotic. But I'm sure you didn't read it.
Click to expand...

It's not that i'm of any concern about politically correctness .... Its a matter of the other influences that have and still to this day, have a manipulative hand in Africa... One would have to deal with far more than what can be covered in a 5000 character commentary Forum.

We know the history of countries, not only Africa but many other countries where their own people kill members of their own nations. What we may care to look at is how sides within nation's are played against each other... while the plundering continues, the bribes flow, and then a policy shift comes and flips the scrip to ensure that the conflict continues.... there are many many factors within what that entails and how its enacted.

So... The point is, trying to measure Africa against other Nations or other ethnic people... It is not such an easy task by any means... when one looks to address 'progress and economics" of people and nations and seek to compare one against the other.

Global Resources chasing has gone on for centuries, and ANY country outside of the Western Hemisphere, suffer's great whenever there is a "high valued commodity" found and is plentiful.

We should think of the decades upon decades it too for Arab Oil Producing Nations... to figure out they were being ripped and stripped, and they formed an alliance called OPEC. Now, the matter is about what it took to form that alliance. Then we are talking "Energy".... it was a matter of "no nation" willing to allow any single non Arab Nation to "corral the oil"... no matter how much its tried by any nation or coalition of nations. We should know that by the incessant wars in the region... The forces that exist in wide variety, will not allow... the West, The East, The North or The South to come in and "dominate this commodity"... So... money is spun, to try and continue the game or pitting one against the other and continual policy shifts, that use religious based manipulations... So... The Arab situation is not one that can be made poor even by that, because of the many players that, insure and demand that no foreign nation gets the oil without paying standard premium...

Contrast that with Africa.. where countries have had a choke hold on sectors for centuries and decades, and invested nothing to infrastructure and a nation wide education system where people have access to quality standardized education. There is areas where there is no mobility infrastructure invested in, and even when it comes to other things that help advance nations... has been denied and undeserved by the lack of investment and re-investments to modernizing and move forward many areas that are and have been 'encroached upon"... by many means, very little to nothing has been invested to build "nation wide universal programming".

There's more than you and/or I can point to that could sum it up in simple terms, but what we can do is not allow ourselves to ignore the impacts and results of foreign manipulations within the mix of what has continued to pose difficult and challenge within Africa.
 
Good4Nothin said:
We DO NOT KNOW why Africa is such a wreck, and why it doesn't get better. Racist explanations don't make sense, but leftist explanations are no better.
Click to expand...

That's not strictly true. The primary factor for Africa's poverty is poor geography. Several posters have alluded to it, as did several of the quoted experts in the original article.
 
RealityNow said:
It's not that i'm of any concern about politically correctness .... Its a matter of the other influences that have and still to this day, have a manipulative hand in Africa... One would have to deal with far more than what can be covered in a 5000 character commentary Forum.

We know the history of countries, not only Africa but many other countries where their own people kill members of their own nations. What we may care to look at is how sides within nation's are played against each other... while the plundering continues, the bribes flow, and then a policy shift comes and flips the scrip to ensure that the conflict continues.... there are many many factors within what that entails and how its enacted.

So... The point is, trying to measure Africa against other Nations or other ethnic people... It is not such an easy task by any means... when one looks to address 'progress and economics" of people and nations and seek to compare one against the other.

Global Resources chasing has gone on for centuries, and ANY country outside of the Western Hemisphere, suffer's great whenever there is a "high valued commodity" found and is plentiful.

We should think of the decades upon decades it too for Arab Oil Producing Nations... to figure out they were being ripped and stripped, and they formed an alliance called OPEC. Now, the matter is about what it took to form that alliance. Then we are talking "Energy".... it was a matter of "no nation" willing to allow any single non Arab Nation to "corral the oil"... no matter how much its tried by any nation or coalition of nations. We should know that by the incessant wars in the region... The forces that exist in wide variety, will not allow... the West, The East, The North or The South to come in and "dominate this commodity"... So... money is spun, to try and continue the game or pitting one against the other and continual policy shifts, that use religious based manipulations... So... The Arab situation is not one that can be made poor even by that, because of the many players that, insure and demand that no foreign nation gets the oil without paying standard premium...

Contrast that with Africa.. where countries have had a choke hold on sectors for centuries and decades, and invested nothing to infrastructure and a nation wide education system where people have access to quality standardized education. There is areas where there is no mobility infrastructure invested in, and even when it comes to other things that help advance nations... has been denied and undeserved by the lack of investment and re-investments to modernizing and move forward many areas that are and have been 'encroached upon"... by many means, very little to nothing has been invested to build "nation wide universal programming".

There's more than you and/or I can point to that could sum it up in simple terms, but what we can do is not allow ourselves to ignore the impacts and results of foreign manipulations within the mix of what has continued to pose difficult and challenge within Africa.
Click to expand...

You are only interested in defending Africa and its corruption. You did not read the Nation article. You are not at all curious about ideas that differ from your own.
 
Metric Mouse said:
That's not strictly true. The primary factor for Africa's poverty is poor geography. Several posters have alluded to it, as did several of the quoted experts in the original article.
Click to expand...

The article mentioned geography, but then discounted it as the primary cause of poverty. The article provide many reasons for thinking the primary cause is the corruption of African leaders.
 
Why is Japan such a ****hole today? Because World War 2 devastated their country.
Why is Germany such a ****hole today? Because World War 2 caused entire cities to be flattened.
Why is France such a ****hole today? Because World War 2 destroyed much of their country.
Why is Belgium such a ****hole today? Because World War 2 was brutal..some areas saw as many as 18 bombs per square foot. Worse...it was the second time it happened to their small country in 30 years.

Except...none of those countries are ****holes today. They have every excuse in the world to BE ****holes...but they are not only not ****holes, at least 2 of them lead Europe and Asia in manufacturing and economic growth.

Africa is Africa and the areas that today still siffer devastation do so because the people responsible for growth in the different countries are garbage, more interested in exploiting the land and people than building prosperity. You can go ahead and blame that on whatever you want but its simply a fact.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom