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Democratic Presidential Debate - 14JAN20

I don't think Steyer did himself or the Democrats any favors by answering the question regarding the whiteness of the debate stage by saying that they lowered the bar to help minorities and still none of them made it. :lol: :lamo
 
justabubba said:
we watched the same debate yet viewed things so differently

in every opportunity to speak, joe seemed at a loss for words. he was unable to string together a cogent thought
biden looked like he was experiencing the onset of senility
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Again, like I said, "not because I love him or anything, but because I think he still probably has the best chances against Trump" so I don't care if he is showing early signs of dementia (he should get a young and energetic veep, though) as long as he can beat Trump. If I believed that any of the others (except Bernie whom I detest) would beat Trump, I'd vote for them.

For me, the task is to get the Trump Crime Family out of the White House. Anybody, senile or not, is better than Trump (even Bernie although just by a hair). Like I said before, I thin the flea on the back of my worst enemy's dog is more qualified than Trump to be the POTUS. If that flea was running, I'd vote for it.
 
Winston said:
Well here's the thing. Former Obama voters who flipped to Trump voters in the rust belt helped deliver Trump the win. So, how are you going to win back those voters with an Obama legacy campaign?


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Those voters didn't like Hillary Clinton and didn't think she would continue Obama's legacy. If Biden had accepted to run in 2016, likely those voters wouldn't defect. And Bernie can't fix that, either. He is not well regarded by blue colar workers and minorities. It's the urban youth crowd that goes berserk about Bernie (it's a cult, just like the Trump cult).
 
GreatNews2night said:
Those voters didn't like Hillary Clinton and didn't think she would continue Obama's legacy. If Biden had accepted to run in 2016, likely those voters wouldn't defect. And Bernie can't fix that, either. He is not well regarded by blue colar workers and minorities. It's the urban youth crowd that goes berserk about Bernie (it's a cult, just like the Trump cult).
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Not a great rebuttal.. blindly asserting Biden is better doesn't dismantle the dynamic of those voters feeling betrayed by Obama and Democrats particularly on economic issues. And offering them an alternative to Trump's tax cuts is the only way you're going to get their votes. Trump is going to be gunning for those voters hard out there lying about his tax cuts and trade deals. The only way you have a credible argument against that is with Bernie who voted against NAFTA and is for M4A and other things that would improve their lives.

Bernie will run against Trump outsourcing their jobs.. Biden will give companies the green light to continue outsourcing them. Those people aren't stupid, they know Biden is a corporate hack. And Bernie does extremely well with that demographic.
 
Obscurity said:
He may not, but a democrat won't be president again, either, unless you have us with you.

So, tread lightly, "independent."
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Yes, I know that your kind is extremely unwise. You think it is all cute to say Bernie or Bust, without realizing that allowing Trump to become president like you did in 2016 allowed Trump to install conservative judges everywhere, which will damage your hopes and curtail your dreams for a generation. If you could have elected Bernie, cool, but given that he lost the primaries, you should have picked the lesser evil and that was Hillary Clinton whose platform at the time was 95% similar to Bernie's while Trump's was 1% similar. By throwing a juvenile tantrum you guys shot yourselves in the foot. You allowed for example Trump to nominate a Secretary of Education who is 100% contrary to what you guys want. And so on and so forth.

I am quite sure that you will throw another juvenile tantrum once Bernie loses this time again, and will blame everybody else except the candidate's policies, which most of America is not ready for. And again, that will give Trump four more years, and he will have even more time to damage, maybe irreversibly, everything you hope for. Very smart of you to do that... [insert sarcasm here], but then, I don't expect any smart behavior to come from a cult. That's the nature of cults: the leader is never wrong no matter what; when things obviously do go wrong it is always the fault of others; and Saint Bernie forbid you to be rational and if once he is no longer viable, maturely look a the other candidates and pick the lesser evil. Oh no, can't have that. It is Bernie... or someone who will inflict terrible and serious losses on your generation... and you still choose the latter, or sit out.

Great! :roll:
 
Obscurity said:
You lot need to GET IN LINE and wake up.
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Wow! Let's call the editors of Psychology textbooks. This is a textbook example of projection. A "Bernie or Bust" guy telling others to wake up! Too funny!!! (if not tragic)
 
GreatNews2night said:
Wow! Let's call the editors of Psychology textbooks. This is a textbook example of projection. A "Bernie or Bust" guy telling others to wake up! Too funny!!! (if not tragic)
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Do the republicans run on half measures?

No.

They run as far right as possible. If history teaches us anything, that is a winning strategy. We need to do the same. Run left, hope for centre left. It's really basic.
 
Winston said:
Not a great rebuttal.. blindly asserting Biden is better doesn't dismantle the dynamic of those voters feeling betrayed by Obama and Democrats particularly on economic issues. And offering them an alternative to Trump's tax cuts is the only way you're going to get their votes. Trump is going to be gunning for those voters hard out there lying about his tax cuts and trade deals. The only way you have a credible argument against that is with Bernie who voted against NAFTA and is for M4A and other things that would improve their lives.

Bernie will run against Trump outsourcing their jobs.. Biden will give companies the green light to continue outsourcing them. Those people aren't stupid, they know Biden is a corporate hack. And Bernie does extremely well with that demographic.
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One of the main reasons Hillary lost that crowd is that she issued threats that coal jobs were to be gone, and then, she refused to campaign there. The day she committed that unforced error, I thought, okaaaay, she just lost the Rust Belt.

M4A won't help anyone. M4A is a HUGE mistake. I've explained why multiple times; I don't feel like doing it again here, but it is true. Everybody who knows about the finances of healthcare and the complex issues involved in the American healthcare system (and I am one of those) knows that M4A is a bad, bad idea. It is NOT the way to go, and it won't work as proposed; the only way to make that idea work would be to heavily tax the middle class.

Maybe the Warren and Sanders campaigns will be able to fool the lower and middle classes into believing that M4A is the solution for their healthcare issues, when it absolutely is not. But I also think that senior citizens in all demographics will be more likely to understand the perils of M4A and vote against a candidate who is proposing it, which is one of the reasons why I think that neither Sanders nor Warren can beat Trump.
 
Obscurity said:
Do the republicans run on half measures?

No.

They run as far right as possible. If history teaches us anything, that is a winning strategy. We need to do the same. Run left, hope for centre left. It's really basic.
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No, it's not. You can't run too far left in this country. What we call left here is center or even right in Europe, and what we call far left here is slightly left there. The cultural difference is huge, and I know because I'm a dual citizen of the United States and of the European Union and I lived there for several years.

Over here, the population is just NOT prepared for what they see as far left ideas, and they think of it strongly enough to NOT vote for someone seen by then as pushing America in that direction. As the boomers die out and new generations replace them, this will change, but it hasn't changed yet.

Contrary to what you think, far left ideas are not popular in America yet, and will bury a candidate instead of electing him. Oh sure, people always grow more moderate once the primaries are over, but the PAC for the other side will have collected all the sound bites to use in ads and scare the voters.
 
GreatNews2night said:
No, it's not. You can't run too far left in this country. What we call left here is center or even right in Europe, and what we call far left here is slightly left there. The cultural difference is huge, and I know because I'm a dual citizen of the United States and of the European Union and I lived there for several years.

Over here, the population is just NOT prepared for what they see as far left ideas, and they think of it strongly enough to NOT vote for someone seen by then as pushing America in that direction. As the boomers die out and new generations replace them, this will change, but it hasn't changed yet.

Contrary to what you think, far left ideas are not popular in America yet, and will bury a candidate instead of electing him. Oh sure, people always grow more moderate once the primaries are over, but the PAC for the other side will have collected all the sound bites to use in ads and scare the voters.
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The point


























Your head
 
GreatNews2night said:
One of the main reasons Hillary lost that crowd is that she issued threats that coal jobs were to be gone, and then, she refused to campaign there. The day she committed that unforced error, I thought, okaaaay, she just lost the Rust Belt.

M4A won't help anyone. M4A is a HUGE mistake. I've explained why multiple times; I don't feel like doing it again here, but it is true. Everybody who knows about the finances of healthcare and the complex issues involved in the American healthcare system (and I am one of those) knows that M4A is a bad, bad idea. It is NOT the way to go, and it won't work as proposed; the only way to make that idea work would be to heavily tax the middle class.

Maybe the Warren and Sanders campaigns will be able to fool the lower and middle classes into believing that M4A is the solution for their healthcare issues, when it absolutely is not. But I also think that senior citizens in all demographics will be more likely to understand the perils of M4A and vote against a candidate who is proposing it, which is one of the reasons why I think that neither Sanders nor Warren can beat Trump.
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Biden tried to cut entitlements in the grand bargain. So seniors are going to oppose him for trying to cut their SSC and Medicare

Sanders always supports expanding SSC and Medicare.

Appeal to the disaffected coal miners with the GND.

Bernie voted against NAFTA. Biden for it.

You can't convince me the candidate who voted for the trade deal that demo hates does better than the candidate who opposed it.


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Winston said:
Biden tried to cut entitlements in the grand bargain. So seniors are going to oppose him for trying to cut their SSC and Medicare

Sanders always supports expanding SSC and Medicare.

Appeal to the disaffected coal miners with the GND.

Bernie voted against NAFTA. Biden for it.

You can't convince me the candidate who voted for the trade deal that demo hates does better than the candidate who opposed it.


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Well, look at Biden's numbers in those states.

Wisconsin, Biden is +4% over Trump, Sanders is only +1%.
Michigan, Biden is +6%, Sanders is +5% in one poll, +7% versus +4% in another one.
Pennsylvania, Biden is 10% ahead of Sanders

These can all be found in RealClearPolitics.

Shocking for you, huh? You THINK that those voters shouldn't prefer Biden over Sanders... but they just do. Reality is a pesky thing when you only look at pies-in-the-sky, huh?
 
Obscurity said:
The point


























Your head
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Cute. That's the best you can do? I know that your crowd is all style over substance (since I did address your point, but it seems like the counterargument flew over YOUR head - I understand what you said; I'm just saying that the Right can run primaries far right and win, but I doubt that the Left can do the same as you propose with the bold ideas part, for the reasons I articulated - so, I gave you an indirect reason why your idea won't work, and you didn't see the connection, LOL).
We'll see.
When the votes are all counted, I'll come back to this thread (will save the link), and propose that you do this:

eat crow.jpg
 
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GreatNews2night said:
Well, look at Biden's numbers in those states.

Wisconsin, Biden is +4% over Trump, Sanders is only +1%.
Michigan, Biden is +6%, Sanders is +5% in one poll, +7% versus +4% in another one.
Pennsylvania, Biden is 10% ahead of Sanders

These can all be found in RealClearPolitics.

Shocking for you, huh? You THINK that those voters shouldn't prefer Biden over Sanders... but they just do. Reality is a pesky thing when you only look at pies-in-the-sky, huh?
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Sanders won Wisconsin in 2016. Sanders also won MI in 2016. Shocking you would leave out that key piece of information.

More lies by omission.. PA is Biden's home state. He's got home court advantage there.

We'll just have to see how the primary goes. I doubt Biden will perform well in the rust belt because he's a corporate stooge. We'll see if I am wrong I'll admit it freely. Will you?
 
Winston said:
Sanders won Wisconsin in 2016. Sanders also won MI in 2016. Shocking you would leave out that key piece of information.

More lies by omission.. PA is Biden's home state. He's got home court advantage there.

We'll just have to see how the primary goes. I doubt Biden will perform well in the rust belt because he's a corporate stooge. We'll see if I am wrong I'll admit it freely. Will you?
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What lies by omission? That's EXACTLY my point, read the posts again and work on your reading comprehension: that against HILLARY who alienated those voters, Bernie did better, but against BIDEN he is NOT doing so well, like the polls are showing. Last I checked, Biden was NOT running in 2016! Gee!

Oh, and we should discount Pennsylvania, huh? Tell you what: the delegate count will NOT discount Pennsylvania because Biden has home court advantage there. I guess if that's what you're thinking, you should be sending a petition to the DNC to discount an eventual Vermont victory for Sanders and not count those delegates, right? Oh, you're not doing that? Ah... double standard, huh?

You said that I wasn't about to convince you that those voters would pick Biden over Sanders, because in YOUR opinion (obviously not that of those voters) he SHOULD be losing there because of the negatives YOU see, right? Well, sorry to disappoint you, but that's NOT what the polls show... they show Biden ahead. Now what? What other excuse will you use?

Oh, don't even bother, I know what you'll say. It's the fault of the DNC, right? It's the fault of the establishment, right? Therefore you will pout, throw a tantrum, and sit out the election, right?

You are in for a big surprise...
 
GreatNews2night said:
What lies by omission? That's EXACTLY my point, read the posts again and work on your reading comprehension: that against HILLARY who alienated those voters, Bernie did better, but against BIDEN he is NOT doing so well, like the polls are showing. Last I checked, Biden was NOT running in 2016! Gee!

Oh, and we should discount Pennsylvania, huh? Tell you what: the delegate count will NOT discount Pennsylvania because Biden has home court advantage there. I guess if that's what you're thinking, you should be sending a petition to the DNC to discount an eventual Vermont victory for Sanders and not count those delegates, right? Oh, you're not doing that? Ah... double standard, huh?

You said that I wasn't about to convince you that those voters would pick Biden over Sanders, because in YOUR opinion (obviously not that of those voters) he SHOULD be losing there because of the negatives YOU see, right? Well, sorry to disappoint you, but that's NOT what the polls show... they show Biden ahead. Now what? What other excuse will you use?

Oh, don't even bother, I know what you'll say. It's the fault of the DNC, right? It's the fault of the establishment, right? Therefore you will pout, throw a tantrum, and sit out the election, right?

You are in for a big surprise...
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You seem to be conflating the general election and the primary in order to make some hamfisted point about Sanders sucking ass in the Midwest when it's just not true.

The industrial Midwest is where Sanders excels. His message resonates there more than other places or did you not see his Fox News Town Hall where he had a whole room of Trump supporters cheering socialized medicine?

Hillary and Biden have roughly equal baggage and they represent the same political ethos. You are desperate to prove Biden is different with some polls within the margin of error but, it's just not true.

Or need I remind you when Sanders DEFIED the polls and pulled off a victory in MI! Precisely because his message does so well with the MOST IMPORTANT DEMOGRAPHIC for the 2020 election.

What makes you think those voters are going to choose a lackluster and feeble Biden campaign in Nov after he has been thoroughly out campaigned by Donald Trump and his merry band of billionaires and liars?

Dem Socialism is the future and you need young people to win. Young people hate Biden. If you were actually objective you wouldn't double down on more Obamaism that lost in 2016 so when Trump retains the WH and half the judiciary effectively becomes the arm of the evangelicals and Trump sells Alaska to Russia for a Trump Tower in Moscow DONT come crying to me that young people didn't vote for your washed up candidate


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Winston said:
Polls indicate most can beat Trump. The country isn't really "center-right" anymore. If you go through polling Democrats have an advantage on policy, in that a majority of Americans agree with them. So, basically the idea for Republicans and centrists is to make the debate about as much bull**** as possible in order to muddy the waters.
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Right, the whole country is just chomping at the bit to pay for the healthcare of illegal aliens and destroy the oil industry. Good Lord. You guys really have no idea do you?
 
veritas1 said:
Right, the whole country is just chomping at the bit to pay for the healthcare of illegal aliens and destroy the oil industry. Good Lord. You guys really have no idea do you?
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The whole country would prefer not to be ripped off by insurance and drug companies and watch the planet die. So, yeah Dems do have an advantage on healthcare and the environment since the GOP position is basically "**** you and **** your planet my friends need to get paid."


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Winston said:
What makes you think those voters are going to choose a lackluster and feeble Biden campaign in Nov after he has been thoroughly out campaigned by Donald Trump and his merry band of billionaires and liars?
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The polls.

Dem Socialism is the future and you need young people to win. Young people hate Biden. If you were actually objective you wouldn't double down on more Obamaism that lost in 2016 so when Trump retains the WH and half the judiciary effectively becomes the arm of the evangelicals and Trump sells Alaska to Russia for a Trump Tower in Moscow DONT come crying to me that young people didn't vote for your washed up candidate
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You got it the other way around. If you really want to defeat Trump and prevent what you've just said from happening, instead of pouting and throwing a tantrum and sitting out or voting for Trump in case your precious Bernie doesn't win the nomination, you'll do like me: you'll vote for whoever is nominated to run against Trump. That person, even if Biden, will still be less bad than Trump. Your dislike of Biden matches my dislike of Sanders, but I'll vote for Sanders if he is the nominee.

You said it yourself: we need you to win otherwise the Dem nominee won't vote. But you all signal that you will defect if Saint Bernie is not nominated, and then you blame us, the voters who are more responsible and understand the stakes of allowing Trump to continue to hold the WH, for an eventual victory.

You want your candidate to be nominated? Do your best to support him. But if he loses, even to Biden, then vote for whoever runs against Trump, lest you get Trump and his acolytes crushing your generation for, well, a generation.

If you can't see it, I frankly pity you.

Yeah, I don't disagree that Dem socialism may be the future. But it is not the present, and the insistence in making it so against the wishes of most voters, will just make the Dems lose and Trump win. Is that really what you want?
 
GreatNews2night said:
The polls.



You got it the other way around. If you really want to defeat Trump and prevent what you've just said from happening, instead of pouting and throwing a tantrum and sitting out or voting for Trump in case your precious Bernie doesn't win the nomination, you'll do like me: you'll vote for whoever is nominated to run against Trump. That person, even if Biden, will still be less bad than Trump. Your dislike of Biden matches my dislike of Sanders, but I'll vote for Sanders if he is the nominee.

You said it yourself: we need you to win otherwise the Dem nominee won't vote. But you all signal that you will defect if Saint Bernie is not nominated, and then you blame us, the voters who are more responsible and understand the stakes of allowing Trump to continue to hold the WH, for an eventual victory.

You want your candidate to be nominated? Do your best to support him. But if he loses, even to Biden, then vote for whoever runs against Trump, lest you get Trump and his acolytes crushing your generation for, well, a generation.

If you can't see it, I frankly pity you.
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Oh I'm voting Democrat no matter what if only to prevent McConnell from remaking the judiciary and the neocons from starting a war with Iran.

The polls also show Bernie with roughly equal chances as Biden against Trump.

But, thing is old people are voting anyway they view it as a civic duty. The young can't be arsed to vote unless you give them a reason to vote and ole hair sniffer is way out of touch with them. Set the polls aside for a minute. They are part of the story but ones within the margin of error are not as convincing as if it was blowouts for Biden across the board.. and that's just not the case.

if you double down on the corporate approved "return to the status quo because Trump is bad" strategy that is FAR riskier than offering the country something new. The country doesn't want to go back to the status quo or why elect a racist moron in the first place?


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Rising Sun said:
Yes, for the reason I stated: the Democrats are even more screwed up and can't find anyone to convince most American voters "two birds in the bush are better than the one in the hand"....or that the Devil we know is worse than their candidate.

Thanks for the personal attack. I've come to expect that from people like you.
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Rising Sun said:
Not a victim. However, do you agree that people who cannot give viewpoints and discuss topics like adults without devolving into immature name-calling have something wrong with them? Perhaps they are simply immature but they could also be on the backside of the IQ Bell Curve? Maybe just poorly educated?
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I assure you, my comment was in no way intended as a "personal attack" and I found absolutely no evidence of my devolving into "immature name-calling" therefore you're obviously mistaken for which I'm sure you feel terrible.

It is my sincere belief that people with baseless opinions and irrational hate for Donald Trump usually know very little or nothing about his Presidency, his accomplishments, or the obstacles he contends with everyday; all of which he has been quite successful at, considering.

And it is my sincere belief that the only rational explanation for this incredible ignorance is indoctrination by agenda-1st journalism, cherry-picked reporting and opinion-based facts by such main stream sources as CNN the undisputed King of 'Fake News'.

So the comment which you mistook for a "personal attack" was simply my standard response to those who express "baseless opinions and irrational hate for Donald Trump" and my only intention was to correct a misconception commonly resulting from overexposure to "fake news".
 
Empirica said:
I assure you, my comment was in no way intended as a "personal attack" and I found absolutely no evidence of my devolving into "immature name-calling" therefore you're obviously mistaken for which I'm sure you feel terrible....[/I]
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LOL

Disagreed, but good luck.
 
Rising Sun said:
Anyone care to watch the debate tonight? Perhaps a drinking game of how many times someone says "I can beat Trump" or words to that effect?

Also, CNN is hosting the event and doubling down on the, pardon the pun, "trumped up" Sanders-Warrens spat.

Personally, while I think Trump is the worst President in living history and a complete f***ing moron, I doubt the Democrats have anyone who can beat him in the election.
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That's why they are so big on impeachment. They can't beat Trump at the polls.
 
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