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Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

TheDoctorWasIn said:
When I was a teenager, I worked as a temp for a little while.

I was the one providing the service - but I wouldn't have gotten the job without the temp agency that got me the job, and they no doubt took a chunk of the money.

I don't disagree - the second the voluntary aspect of the service is removed, it becomes a crime. But that doesnt mean that temp agencies should be illegal.
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Where did I claim that agencies for these women should be illegal if prostitution became legal. As a matter of fact, I actually advocated that if a one time pimp wanted to go legit and file all necessary paperwork and work within the framework of the new legal way to represent a girl, I would be all for it.
 
TheDoctorWasIn said:
If legalizing sex work is "giving up" in the culture war, I'm all for it.
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I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Americans agreed with you.

The theory endures that "People are going to do what people are going to do, regardless of what governments say about it." While this isn't entirely and unequivocally true--especially in more authoritarian nations--it certainly seems to be the prevailing zeitgeist in the West, on everything from borders to guns to gambling.

We take it to a whole new level here in our paradise of Ontario. For example, the biggest money-sucking casinos, lotteries, and basically the entire VLT industry are run by the provincial government. If you can't stop 'em, tax 'em. If taxes aren't enough, run the casinos, brothels, and pot dispensaries yourself.
 
bullseyelqcs said:
Where did I claim that agencies for these women should be illegal if prostitution became legal. As a matter of fact, I actually advocated that if a one time pimp wanted to go legit and file all necessary paperwork and work within the framework of the new legal way to represent a girl, I would be all for it.
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As I said before, it comes down to how you define "pimp".
 
Felis Leo said:
It is for me. I want to reduce harm to young men and women overall. And the only way to reduce harm to young men and women is to reduce the rate of prostitution overall.

The goal and purpose of across-the-board legalization is to allow men to purchase the bodies of young men and women. You say it is to help the providers of sex. But it really empowers the purchaser and lets them off the hook.

Let me illustrate it thusly: What would be the penalty for a man who goes to a licensed brothel in which it is later found out that young women are trafficked? He does not know for certain there are trafficked girls there, but he does not care if there were. What criminal penalties, if any, would he face realistically?
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The penalties would lie with the brothel, as they would be operating outside the legal constraints of said license.
 
I have a friend who, in a much earlier point in his life, organized the streetwalkers in his neighborhood into an organization.

He took care of bookings, and took a cut of their profits. He made money, but they made more money with him than they did before. He never abused them, or forced them to do anything. He also provided protection, and saved at least one of their lives.

This was more than 20 years ago, and he's been clean and sober for 18 years now. But the important question for this thread- was he a "pimp"?
 
Felis Leo said:
No, I am not. I repeat that I back the Swedish model: Legalize the selling of your body, criminalize the purchase.

I think anyone who truly cares about young men and women to allow them to do whatever they wish with their bodies, but not leave room for exploitation or abuse, should do the same.
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I understand the theory of it, but I think it's a contradiction in the context of "allow them to do whatever they wish with their bodies."
 
Felis Leo said:
And the only reason you want prostitution legalized is because you want to be able to purchase the bodies of trafficked young girls as cheaply as possible without legal consequence under the fig leaf of "empowering women". See, I can play mind-reader and lie about your motivations as well. But I would prefer to have good-faith discussions and debates and not have to lower myself into the tarpit of personal attack.

I told you before: I want to reduce harm. If I were either a dyed-in-the-wool moralist who put my personal morality ahead of the lives of actual people, OR I wanted to make sure sex workers got their "just desserts" I would fight to keep the status quo, keep prostitution illegal, and let prostitutes continue to be murdered by their Johns. But I do not. Hence why I back the Swedish Model for legalizing sex work but keeping solicitation criminalized.

If you think reducing prostitution and evening the power imbalance between prostitutes and their clients is wrong-headed, tell me why.
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I wanted to come back to this post, and apologize - I realized in retrospect I was being particularly rude in my comments towards you. This is an issue that I am particularly passionate about, mostly because of how misunderstood I feel the issue is.

When I did come back, I saw the highlighted part that you must have added since the last time I saw this post, and I think that really boils the issue down.

If you make the customer base criminal, then you get criminals as a customer base. The answer is normalizing sex work. To remove the stigma.

All I am interested in is restoring the power balance - not just between sex workers, their clients and "pimps", but between society and sex workers.

The power disparity between "prostitutes" and "pimps" - the cliche that we all know from pop culture - is entirely due to the power disparity between sex workers and the rest of us. Because their profession is illegal, they are not afforded the full protection of law enforcement. They have no recourse against abusive and terrible "pimps" who control their lives through threats and coercion. They can't go to the police and be taken seriously - and when they do end up murdered, everything just blows it off - that's what happens to people in the criminal underworld.

But there's another side to the story, one that makes the definition of "pimp" particularly relevant.

Because of everything I said before - sex work is a dangerous job. It's a lot more likely that a sex worker will be abused by a client than by a "pimp" - and any sort of security or vetting of clients falls into the definition of "pimping". From the perspective of a sex worker, sometimes it's very helpful to have a large, intimidating man standing outside of the hotel room while you provide your "services".
 
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Condor060 said:
One of the bill’s sponsors, Rep. Selene Colburn who is a Burlington Progressive, said she believed decriminalizing so-called sex work would offer prostitutes more safety and improve their health. Colburn also stated that if prostitution were not considered illegal in the state, charges would not be brought against the sex worker or the buyer.

The reason for this proposal is, by driving sex work underground, we’re creating much more dangerous conditions for sex workers.

Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill to Legalize Prostitution

Is this really a good idea?
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Bad idea.

It's rubber stamping what will remain very dangerous work, and subjecting more women (and girls) to kidnapping/trafficking/rape/torture/imprisonment.
 
TheDoctorWasIn said:
I wanted to come back to this post, and apologize - I realized in retrospect I was being particularly rude in my comments towards you. This is an issue that I am particularly passionate about, mostly because of how misunderstood I feel the issue is.

When I did come back, I saw the highlighted part that you must have added since the last time I saw this post, and I think that really boils the issue down.
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I accept your apology, TheDoctorWasIn. And I apologize for my vituperative response to you.

TheDoctorWasIn said:
If you make the customer base criminal, then you get criminals as a customer base. The answer is normalizing sex work. To remove the stigma.
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From a personal moral perspective, I have a rather low opinion of men who believe themselves entitled to the renting of women's bodies. But my concern is regarding violence towards women (and men) who are victimized by violent Johns. If what it takes to reduce violence towards prostitutes is to put all the power in their hands, then that is what must be done. We can talk about societal perceptions all we want, but that is a cultural/social issue. Legalizing prostitution does not make it any more appealing or alleviating of the stigma than legalizing gambling removes the stigma from gambling.

TheDoctorWasIn said:
All I am interested in is restoring the power balance - not just between sex workers, their clients and "pimps", but between society and sex workers.
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The only way I see that such a balance could be made between prostitutes and society and where prostitution is completely and totally de-stigmatized is to lead by example. But it would require a somewhat radical cultural shift in most people's personal morality overall and what we want for both our daughters and our sons. By that I mean this: would you encourage your daughter, or granddaughter to sell their body as a viable career path in the same tone as you would encourage them to seek work in law, medicine, science or finance? Moreover, would you teach your sons or grandsons that it is perfectly acceptable, and perhaps even laudable, to rent women's bodies? Perhaps telling them it would be better and less emotionally draining than seeking out committed romantic relationships when they are young?

This is me moralizing, but I do not think it is correct to teach our sons to put their money into an industry that leads to such incredible harm. Again, think of the example I used of a young man going to an otherwise legal licensed brothel that is using trafficked girls, but he does not care. As bullseyelqcs pointed out, that is the brothel's problem, not the callow youth's whether or not he knows. Legalizing prostitution across the board is not simply telling our daughters that it is okay to rent out their bodies. Legalizing prostitution across the board is telling our sons that it is okay to buy the bodies of our daughters for their pleasure-seeking, which I think is a worse problem and exacerbates the already existing power imbalances within society, and helps to objectify and commodify the bodies of women. I do not think young men need further encouragement to look at women that way.

TheDoctorWasIn said:
The power disparity between "prostitutes" and "pimps" - the cliche that we all know from pop culture - is entirely due to the power disparity between sex workers and the rest of us. Because their profession is illegal, they are not afforded the full protection of law enforcement. They have no recourse against abusive and terrible "pimps" who control their lives through threats and coercion. They can't go to the police and be taken seriously - and when they do end up murdered, everything just blows it off - that's what happens to people in the criminal underworld.
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I completely agree. Violence by procurers towards both against the prostitutes under their ostensible care and protection as well as free agent prostitutes who undercut their bottom line is a horrible problem. It is part of the reason why I seek the Nordic Model to be imposed.

TheDoctorWasIn said:
But there's another side to the story, one that makes the definition of "pimp" particularly relevant.

Because of everything I said before - sex work is a dangerous job. It's a lot more likely that a sex worker will be abused by a client than by a "pimp" - and any sort of security or vetting of clients falls into the definition of "pimping". From the perspective of a sex worker, sometimes it's very helpful to have a large, intimidating man standing outside of the hotel room while you provide your "services".
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True. But under the Nordic Model, pimps would no longer be a necessity. Instead, those large, imposing men would be a security guard, rather than a property owner guarding the prostitute as though she was a prized race horse rather than a person.
 
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The illegality of prostitution is an artifact from an era that no longer has any bearing on modern society. It’s time to move on.
 
Condor060 said:
One of the bill’s sponsors, Rep. Selene Colburn who is a Burlington Progressive, said she believed decriminalizing so-called sex work would offer prostitutes more safety and improve their health. Colburn also stated that if prostitution were not considered illegal in the state, charges would not be brought against the sex worker or the buyer.

The reason for this proposal is, by driving sex work underground, we’re creating much more dangerous conditions for sex workers.

Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill to Legalize Prostitution

Is this really a good idea?
Click to expand...

Yes. There is no compelling reason for the state to deny men, or women, the opportunity to voluntarily sell intercourse and other intimate services to equally voluntary customers so long as they're free of disease and properly vetted. Tax and regulate, get the industry out of the criminal shadows where no one, whether Johns, Janes or prostitutes, are protected by law, and where no standards or strictures apply, including vitally important health regulations and screenings. For those concerned about trafficking, laws and the tax proceeds of prostitution can and should be used to combat such things; anyone involved in illicit trafficking (including knowing clients) can and should be hit with massive fines, jail time, and a lifetime ban from any kind of prostitution related commerce.
 
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Surrealistik said:
Yes. There is no compelling reason for the state to deny men, or women, the opportunity to voluntarily sell intercourse and other intimate services to equally voluntary customers so long as they're free of disease and properly vetted. Tax and regulate, get the industry out of the criminal shadows where no one, whether Johns, Janes or prostitutes, are protected by law, and where no standards or strictures apply, including vitally important health regulations and screenings. For those concerned about trafficking, laws and the tax proceeds of prostitution can and should be used to combat such things; anyone involved in illicit trafficking (including knowing clients) can and should be hit with massive fines, jail time, and a lifetime ban from any kind of prostitution related commerce.
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No.

You'd be legalizing kidnapping/trafficking/rape/torture/imprisonment under the guise of woke.

Another case where liberals - and some conservatives - don't understand the real world issues here.
 
3leftsdoo said:
No.

You'd be legalizing kidnapping/trafficking/rape/torture/imprisonment under the guise of woke.

Another case where liberals - and some conservatives - don't understand the real world issues here.
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Legalizing prostitution is factually not legalizing everything you've just mentioned; and it has nothing to do with 'woke' and everything to do with maximizing autonomy and freedom, and bringing the related underground economy above board. Personally, I have no use for prostitution, but I don't see any truly compelling reason why two consenting people should not be able to legally engage in such an exchange, particularly when legalization affords a safe and well-regulated environment for such.

As with your stance against marijuana legalization, we will not agree.
 
Equal protection of the law for unemployment compensation is more equitable under our form of Capitalism.

We just have to put up with modern women being their modern selves for free under our form of Capitalism.
 
Surrealistik said:
Legalizing prostitution is factually not legalizing everything you've just mentioned; and it has nothing to do with 'woke' and everything to do with maximizing autonomy and freedom, and bringing the related underground economy above board. Personally, I have no use for prostitution, but I don't see any truly compelling reason why two consenting people should not be able to legally engage in such an exchange, particularly when legalization affords a safe and well-regulated environment for such.

As with your stance against marijuana legalization, we will not agree.
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You are legalizing those horrors by extension.

Sadly, liberals don't care about the human wreckage caused - they just want their pot and p*ssy pimped.

Trading human lives for the convenience of their preferred vices.

And if this weren't bad enough, they're doing it under the banner of woke freedom.

Utterly disgraceful.

:hm
 
Condor060 said:
One of the bill’s sponsors, Rep. Selene Colburn who is a Burlington Progressive, said she believed decriminalizing so-called sex work would offer prostitutes more safety and improve their health. Colburn also stated that if prostitution were not considered illegal in the state, charges would not be brought against the sex worker or the buyer.

The reason for this proposal is, by driving sex work underground, we’re creating much more dangerous conditions for sex workers.

Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill to Legalize Prostitution

Is this really a good idea?
Click to expand...

I’m of the opinion that all victimless crime should be legalized, with exception to strong opioids.
Two consenting adults should have the ability to decide to have sex for any reason, even monetary compensation.
Putting people to jails or ruining their reputations over a crime without a victim is stupid.

Having said that, I would not want my community to have a brothel.


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3leftsdoo said:
No.

You'd be legalizing kidnapping/trafficking/rape/torture/imprisonment under the guise of woke.

Another case where liberals - and some conservatives - don't understand the real world issues here.
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Not really.
If it turns into a regular job then why would someone be kidnapped to do this? A woman would be able to complain to police without any repercussions (like losing income), and if she wants to become a prostitute she wouldn’t have to get involved with criminal enterprises to do that if its legal. People would prefer to use cleaner and legal services of businesses that engage in that activity legally.
Legalizing prostitution would actually eliminate things you listed here.


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Surrealistik said:
Yes. There is no compelling reason for the state to deny men, or women, the opportunity to voluntarily sell intercourse and other intimate services to equally voluntary customers so long as they're free of disease and properly vetted. Tax and regulate, get the industry out of the criminal shadows where no one, whether Johns, Janes or prostitutes, are protected by law, and where no standards or strictures apply, including vitally important health regulations and screenings. For those concerned about trafficking, laws and the tax proceeds of prostitution can and should be used to combat such things; anyone involved in illicit trafficking (including knowing clients) can and should be hit with massive fines, jail time, and a lifetime ban from any kind of prostitution related commerce.
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If I may, Surrealistik, do you mean that the prostitutes should be free of disease or properly vetted, or their clientele?
 
thedimon said:
Not really.
If it turns into a regular job then why would someone be kidnapped to do this? A woman would be able to complain to police without any repercussions (like losing income), and if she wants to become a prostitute she wouldn’t have to get involved with criminal enterprises to do that if its legal. People would prefer to use cleaner and legal services of businesses that engage in that activity legally.
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Do you presume that the majority of men who simply want to get their rocks off will care whether the girls they sleep with are consenting adults or victims of human trafficking?

That sounds rather like betting that the People's Republic of China would become impoverished because no one of conscience would want to purchase products from a brutal autocracy which brazenly commits human rights violations and produces a fair amount of its goods with slave labor. Most people do not think about it, or care deeply about it even if they do.

thedimon said:
Legalizing prostitution would actually eliminate things you listed here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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That is not borne out by the evidence available to us thus far. Despite all logical presumptions to the contrary, the evidence demonstrates that where prostitution is legalized, human trafficking increases.
 
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Harshaw said:
I understand the theory of it, but I think it's a contradiction in the context of "allow them to do whatever they wish with their bodies."
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I should say "within reason."
 
With recourse to unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed on an at-will employment States, even the unemployed should be able to purchase health insurance in a market friendly manner.
 
Felis Leo said:
If I may, Surrealistik, do you mean that the prostitutes should be free of disease or properly vetted, or their clientele?
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Both preferably, but prostitutes in particular, as they're the bigger potential disease vector, and it's easier to enforce. A license or registry to 'buy' prostitution that requires submission to periodic health screenings may not be a bad idea. My big concern is that if you make it too onerous to do so, that you undermine participation in the legal market vs the black market.

3leftsdoo said:
You are legalizing those horrors by extension.

Sadly, liberals don't care about the human wreckage caused - they just want their pot and p*ssy pimped.

Trading human lives for the convenience of their preferred vices.

And if this weren't bad enough, they're doing it under the banner of woke freedom.

Utterly disgraceful.
Click to expand...

That's not legalization of these things by extension or otherwise.

While it's true that to a degree human trafficking increases where prostitution is legal on average, this is not to my knowledge universal, and strong and decisive action should be taken to combat the black market where trafficking occurs. Due to the tax income from legalization of prostitution, those resources are available.
 
Surrealistik said:
Both preferably, but prostitutes in particular, as they're the bigger potential disease vector, and it's easier to enforce. A license or registry to 'buy' prostitution that requires submission to periodic health screenings may not be a bad idea. My big concern is that if you make it too onerous to do so, that you undermine participation in the legal market vs the black market.

That's not legalization of these things by extension or otherwise.

While it's true that to a degree human trafficking increases where prostitution is legal on average, this is not to my knowledge universal, and strong and decisive action should be taken to combat the black market where trafficking occurs. Due to the tax income from legalization of prostitution, those resources are available.
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The path to Hell...
 
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