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Thread: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

  1. #171
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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoctorWasIn View Post
    What pimps do is illegal only because prostitution is illegal.
    No, that is almost correct.

    What pimps do is illegal because they are forcing someone to do something.

    If prostitution was legal, pimping would still be illegal.

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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Condor060 View Post
    I am only knowingly being ridiculous to make a point.

    I am not against prostitution. What two people decide in their own privacy is their own business.

    I am not against making prostitution legal in any state.

    But no matter how many people you may know in the industry, human trafficking is involved in prostitution. I would venture to guess in the US its biggest advocate.

    If we move to make it legal, more people will participate and we will ultimately move to encourage more human trafficking. Thats common sense.

    So why not take the promoters of human trafficking out of the equation?
    I agree with you on almost all of your point here.

    But by laying down an absolute prohibition on 3rd parties being involved will not just "take the promoters of trafficking" out of the equation - it will also make life more difficult and dangerous for sex workers.
    Don't believe something just because you want to.

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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoctorWasIn View Post
    No, this isn't about "reducing harm".

    This is about you thinking you know better than them. It's paternalism.

    You want sex work to be reduced because you think it's bad, and don't care what the people involved think, because you know better.
    And the only reason you want prostitution legalized is because you want to be able to purchase the bodies of trafficked young girls as cheaply as possible without legal consequence under the fig leaf of "empowering women". See, I can play mind-reader and lie about your motivations as well. But I would prefer to have good-faith discussions and debates and not have to lower myself into the tarpit of personal attack.

    I told you before: I want to reduce harm. If I were either a dyed-in-the-wool moralist who put my personal morality ahead of the lives of actual people, OR I wanted to make sure sex workers got their "just desserts" I would fight to keep the status quo, keep prostitution illegal, and let prostitutes continue to be murdered by their Johns. But I do not. Hence why I back the Swedish Model for legalizing sex work but keeping solicitation criminalized.

    If you think reducing prostitution and evening the power imbalance between prostitutes and their clients is wrong-headed, tell me why.
    Last edited by Felis Leo; 01-13-20 at 04:44 PM.
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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyelqcs View Post
    No, that is almost correct.

    What pimps do is illegal because they are forcing someone to do something.

    If prostitution was legal, pimping would still be illegal.
    Where do you get the impression that all "pimps" are "forcing" their workers to do anything?

    Once again, it comes down to how you define "pimp".
    Don't believe something just because you want to.

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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Felis Leo View Post
    And the only reason you want prostitution legalized is because you want to be able to purchase the bodies of trafficked young girls as cheaply as possible without legal consequence. See, I can play mind-reader and lie about your motivations as well.
    You can lie about me all you want. But I didnt lie about your motivations - you admitted them to me.

    You want prostitution to decrease. Because you think its bad.


    But I would prefer to have good-faith discussions and debates and not have to lower myself into the tarpit of personal attack.
    If you want a good-faith discussion, you need to be open to what I'm saying. I haven't attacked you personally, I have challenged your perspective. If you prefer to take offense, that's on you.

    I told you before: I want to reduce harm. If were either a dyed-in-the-wool moralist who didn't care about harm, OR I wanted to make sure sex workers got their "just desserts" I would fight to keep the status quo, keep prostitution illegal, and let prostitutes continue to be murdered by their Johns. But I do not. Hence why I back the Swedish Model for legalizing sex work but keeping solicitation criminalized.
    You want to reduce harm, and you don't care about the people who will actually be affected by it because you know better than them.

    That's paternalism.

    The way to reduce harm is to normalize sex work. Not build a maze of laws around it.
    Don't believe something just because you want to.

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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoctorWasIn View Post
    When I was a teenager, I worked as a temp for a little while.

    I was the one providing the service - but I wouldn't have gotten the job without the temp agency that got me the job, and they no doubt took a chunk of the money.

    I don't disagree - the second the voluntary aspect of the service is removed, it becomes a crime. But that doesnt mean that temp agencies should be illegal.
    Where did I claim that agencies for these women should be illegal if prostitution became legal. As a matter of fact, I actually advocated that if a one time pimp wanted to go legit and file all necessary paperwork and work within the framework of the new legal way to represent a girl, I would be all for it.

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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoctorWasIn View Post
    If legalizing sex work is "giving up" in the culture war, I'm all for it.
    I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Americans agreed with you.

    The theory endures that "People are going to do what people are going to do, regardless of what governments say about it." While this isn't entirely and unequivocally true--especially in more authoritarian nations--it certainly seems to be the prevailing zeitgeist in the West, on everything from borders to guns to gambling.

    We take it to a whole new level here in our paradise of Ontario. For example, the biggest money-sucking casinos, lotteries, and basically the entire VLT industry are run by the provincial government. If you can't stop 'em, tax 'em. If taxes aren't enough, run the casinos, brothels, and pot dispensaries yourself.

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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    If you legalize sex work but criminalize their customer base, you insure that all of their customers are criminals.
    Don't believe something just because you want to.

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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyelqcs View Post
    Where did I claim that agencies for these women should be illegal if prostitution became legal. As a matter of fact, I actually advocated that if a one time pimp wanted to go legit and file all necessary paperwork and work within the framework of the new legal way to represent a girl, I would be all for it.
    As I said before, it comes down to how you define "pimp".
    Don't believe something just because you want to.

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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Felis Leo View Post
    It is for me. I want to reduce harm to young men and women overall. And the only way to reduce harm to young men and women is to reduce the rate of prostitution overall.

    The goal and purpose of across-the-board legalization is to allow men to purchase the bodies of young men and women. You say it is to help the providers of sex. But it really empowers the purchaser and lets them off the hook.

    Let me illustrate it thusly: What would be the penalty for a man who goes to a licensed brothel in which it is later found out that young women are trafficked? He does not know for certain there are trafficked girls there, but he does not care if there were. What criminal penalties, if any, would he face realistically?
    The penalties would lie with the brothel, as they would be operating outside the legal constraints of said license.

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