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Thread: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

  1. #161
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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoctorWasIn View Post
    No, it can't.

    Adult women who voluntarily chose to provide sex as a service are not comparable to children.

    They do not need your paternalistic "protection".
    Aren't they? A child desperate to feed his family offers to work. A woman desperate to feed her family offers to sell her body.

    What is your reason for allowing one and denying the other?
    Itís in the small things that the rot starts. Do the wrong thing once, itís easier to do it again. Do the individualistic thing once, it is easy to do it again.

    Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus

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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoctorWasIn View Post
    Legal protections are meaningless when they can be physically overpowered and abused by johns.

    Why shouldn't a legal prostitute be able to use the services of a 3rd party to provide security and vetting?
    She is still the one selling her services. They are merely profiting by doing all of the other things.

    That said, the second a worker becomes OBLIGATED to perform those services at the behest of the "agency", it becomes something completely different, and illegal, by the way.

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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Felis Leo View Post
    Aren't they? A child desperate to feed his family offers to work. A woman desperate to feed her family offers to sell her body.

    What is your reason for allowing one and denying the other?
    For the same reason that it's legal to buy cigarettes and alcohol, and legal to gamble for adults, but not children.
    Don't believe something just because you want to.

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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    I agree. Equal protection of the laws is in our Constitutions. We should be solving simple poverty via existing legal and physical infrastructure. Unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed is market friendly and solves that simple form of poverty in our market based economy.
    What in the past 50 years in North America suggests to you that the countless taxes, tariffs, and fines introduced have "solved" or are "solving" poverty? Or for that matter, addiction, wealth inequality, or declining mental health?

    Is there an alternate reality out yonder where the poor are getting richer, the addicts are shrinking in number, and mental and physical wellness are improving?

    We tax these things not because we expect taxation to "solve" problems, but because we're acknowledging they've grown to the extent that governments in a (relatively) free society can't police them anymore. Hence why not profit from vice? Ergo the illegal crack/cocaine epidemic of the 1980's becomes the legal (and most profitable) prescription drug epidemic of the 21st Century. The scandalous "Playboy" magazines of the 1950's become a profitable empire of pornography and prostitution in 2020. The illegal worker exploitation of the 1930's becomes the legal and profitable legion of Chinese sweatshops (with bonus tariff revenues) of today. The lying tabloids of the 1970's become million-dollar-per-day taxes on tech monoliths like Facebook for disseminating "fake news" in our great era.

    Unfortunately tax revenues from cancer sticks (i.e. cigarettes) are currently stagnant, but vaping, marijuana, obesity, carcinogenic foods, and who knows what else will soon take care of that, and let's tax the whole lot of them too.

    Does the total number of miserable, dying, exploited, addicted people ever drop in the long term? No. But at least we've got a windfall of taxes to pay 30 cents on the dollar for our projected social welfare costs for the next 30 years.

    Legalizing prostitution is giving up. I'm not necessarily arguing that governments shouldn't give up, but let's call a spade a spade. This proposal is nothing more glamorous or "market friendly" than giving up and hoping it will cut our losses.

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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyelqcs View Post
    She is still the one selling her services. They are merely profiting by doing all of the other things.

    That said, the second a worker becomes OBLIGATED to perform those services at the behest of the "agency", it becomes something completely different, and illegal, by the way.
    When I was a teenager, I worked as a temp for a little while.

    I was the one providing the service - but I wouldn't have gotten the job without the temp agency that got me the job, and they no doubt took a chunk of the money.

    I don't disagree - the second the voluntary aspect of the service is removed, it becomes a crime. But that doesnt mean that temp agencies should be illegal.
    Don't believe something just because you want to.

  6. #166
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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoctorWasIn View Post
    Go look at the headline of your article.

    Sweden's model is successful in reducing sex work.

    That is not the goal or purpose of legalization.
    It is for me. I want to reduce harm to young men and women overall. And the only way to reduce harm to young men and women is to reduce the rate of prostitution overall.

    The goal and purpose of across-the-board legalization is to allow men to purchase the bodies of young men and women. You say it is to help the providers of sex. But it really empowers the purchaser and lets them off the hook.

    Let me illustrate it thusly: What would be the penalty for a man who goes to a licensed brothel in which it is later found out that young women are trafficked? He does not know for certain there are trafficked girls there, but he does not care if there were. What criminal penalties, if any, would he face realistically?
    Itís in the small things that the rot starts. Do the wrong thing once, itís easier to do it again. Do the individualistic thing once, it is easy to do it again.

    Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus

  7. #167
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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by COTO View Post
    What in the past 50 years in North America suggests to you that the countless taxes, tariffs, and fines introduced have "solved" or are "solving" poverty? Or for that matter, addiction, wealth inequality, or declining mental health?

    Is there an alternate reality out yonder where the poor are getting richer, the addicts are shrinking in number, and mental and physical wellness are improving?

    We tax these things not because we expect taxation to "solve" problems, but because we're acknowledging they've grown to the extent that governments in a (relatively) free society can't police them anymore. Hence why not profit from vice? Ergo the illegal crack/cocaine epidemic of the 1980's becomes the legal (and most profitable) prescription drug epidemic of the 21st Century. The scandalous "Playboy" magazines of the 1950's become a profitable empire of pornography and prostitution in 2020. The illegal worker exploitation of the 1930's becomes the legal and profitable legion of Chinese sweatshops (with bonus tariff revenues) of today. The lying tabloids of the 1970's become million-dollar-per-day taxes on tech monoliths like Facebook for disseminating "fake news" in our great era.

    Unfortunately tax revenues from cancer sticks (i.e. cigarettes) are currently stagnant, but vaping, marijuana, obesity, carcinogenic foods, and who knows what else will soon take care of that, and let's tax the whole lot of them too.

    Does the total number of miserable, dying, exploited, addicted people ever drop? No. But at least we've got a windfall of taxes to pay 30 cents on the dollar for our projected social welfare costs for the next 30 years.

    Legalizing prostitution is giving up. I'm not necessarily arguing that governments shouldn't give up, but let's call a spade a spade. This proposal is nothing more glamorous or "market friendly" than giving up and hoping it will cut our losses.
    If legalizing sex work is "giving up" in the culture war, I'm all for it.
    Don't believe something just because you want to.

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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Condor060 View Post
    They can do that now.
    But most won't because they don't want to labeled a criminal as well. Hence the need for THEM not to be the criminals in this situation.

  9. #169
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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Felis Leo View Post
    It is for me. I want to reduce harm to young men and women overall. And the only way to reduce harm to young men and women is to reduce the rate of prostitution overall.

    The goal and purpose of across-the-board legalization is to allow men to purchase the bodies of young men and women. You say it is to help the providers of sex. But it really empowers the purchaser and lets them off the hook.

    Let me illustrate it thusly: What would be the penalty for a man who goes to a licensed brothel in which it is later found out that young women are trafficked? He does not know for certain there are trafficked girls there, but he does not care if there were. What criminal penalties, if any, would he face realistically?

    No, this isn't about "reducing harm".

    This is about you thinking you know better than them. It's paternalism.

    You want sex work to be reduced because you think it's bad, and don't care what the people involved think, because you know better.
    Don't believe something just because you want to.

  10. #170
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    Re: Vermont Lawmakers Propose Bill To Legalize Prostitution

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoctorWasIn View Post
    That's not what I said at all. Lawmakers make laws in areas they know nothing about every day.

    You are welcome to trust in your "common sense". I am welcome to discount it as irrelevant and uninformed.

    In a discussion such as this one, you need to back up your claims with facts, not emotions.

    You have a perspective of the "pimp"-sex worker relationship that you've developed from pop culture - "pimps" are all abusive manipulators like you see on Law and Order.

    That is not reflective of reality. There are many stereotypical "pimps" out there, but that is not the only reality.
    I am only knowingly being ridiculous to make a point.

    I am not against prostitution. What two people decide in their own privacy is their own business.

    I am not against making prostitution legal in any state.

    But no matter how many people you may know in the industry, human trafficking is involved in prostitution. I would venture to guess in the US its biggest advocate.

    If we move to make it legal, more people will participate and we will ultimately move to encourage more human trafficking. Thats common sense.

    So why not take the promoters of human trafficking out of the equation?

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