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Trump is responsible for the downed airliner

OscarLevant said:
At first, I agreed with the Trumpsters that Iran was 100% responsible.

But, on the Smerconish TV show ( he's a lawyer ) he talked about "proximate causality" instructions that are given to juries in civil court, that one effect can have a primary cause, and a number of proximate contributing causes. David Frum, a well known conservative who appears on TV and radio often, makes the case, and I'm inclined to agree.


Trump Broke It. Now He Owns It.




No doubt Iran could have been more careful, disallowing commercial traffic during the "tit for tat" climate as described by Buttigieg, but no doubt the attack on their #2 man caused a panic climate, where "in the fog of war", errors are more likely.


Like Mr. Frump explains, it all started when Trump withdrew from the Iran nuke deal noting that, he had no realistic alternative other than to increase sanctions, as if this is going to cause Iran to come crawling to Trump with their tail between their legs. Trump has an epic failure of grasping the dynamics of foreign policy consequences when it comes to a country like Iran. Moreover, he's been lying about a number of things.

I find it amusing that Trumpsters will sit idley by when Trump makes outrageous claims against dems, but when anyone makes a claim
against Trump, legitimate or otherwise, my my, they get so full of self-righteous indignation all of the sudden.
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Well if you want to use that logic lets not stop there, lets trace it back to its origin. Iran started all of this when they decided to develope the ability to enrich uranium.

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Harshaw said:
They ****ed up. It's 100% on them. We are not responsible, at all, for them shooting down a plane taking off from their own airport.

To think otherwise is to want to. Why would you want to?
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That was rhetorical wasn't it?

.
 
Harshaw said:
No. 100%. It is THEIR ****up, full stop.

I'll ask you again -- why do you WANT the US to share part of the blame?
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Your argument presumes that when someone contributes to a crime, that your opponent wants them to be a contributor.

That makes no sense. If my mother contributed to a crime, it would not be because I wanted her to be. Either she did or she didn't.

I'm not a denier. If the evidence is incontrovertible that she did, I'll accept the evidence. I may not want to believe it, but I will accept the truth, I let the chips fall where they fall.

Please inform this forum that you are not stupid.
 
Rising Sun said:
Obama only unfroze Iran's own money. That said, I think the Iran deal was highly flawed since all it really did was kick the nuclear can about 10 years down the road.
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As opposed to 3 months down the road without the deal?


America can do a lot to fortify it's position in 10 years. It was the best deal Obama could muster. What deal is Trump getting from Iran? NADA.
 
Craig234 said:
Sure, if the store owner had kidnapped the guy and tortured him for years. You think maybe Iran has the greater claim against the US for putting them under the dictator for 25 years, which lead to the current government?



It's not giving them money. It's not stealing their money. The US held it for years, it was about to go to court where the US knew they would lose. Obama got something for it, which is pretty remarkable. It's like the store owner returning the money he owed, but getting the customer to agree to only buy from him.
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1. There has been a "shah" in Iran since the days of the Roman Empire. Perhaps in Mossadegh hasn't been such an admirer of Stalin he wouldnt have faced such hostility from the West.

2. The U.S.A. had the legitimate and strong counteracts against Iran.
 
trouble13 said:
Well if you want to use that logic lets not stop there, lets trace it back to its origin. Iran started all of this when they decided to develope the ability to enrich uranium.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
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Now why would they do that? Could America invading sovereign countries in the region have something to do with it?
 
OscarLevant said:
Now why would they do that? Could America invading sovereign countries in the region have something to do with it?
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No matter what happens, you are going to find a way to blame America for it arent you. Now you know why you guys have been labeled the "Blame America First" crowd. Its disgusting.
 
Barnacle said:
Nope; black man bad gave the money (multiple times over the original amount ... and don't give me that **** "excuse" that it was because of interest it had accumulated) back to a country that progressed into the top "producer" of world-wide terrorism. There is a reason why the US didn't return that money for 50 years ... until black man bad showed up.
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As Kerry pointed out, stopping Iran's nuke program, even if for 15 years, and dealing with Iran's terrorism, was better than dealing with Iran's terrorism and having nukes 3 months down the road.


Returning the money was necessary for the deal which put America in a better position than without the deal.
 
apdst said:
That's what motivated them to shoot down UA752? :lamo
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It wasn't shot down because of motivation, it was shot down because of error, and error less likely to have occurred but for the fog of war concept.
 
eohrnberger said:
Not only that, the entire world history started when Trump was elected!
Everything that could possibly interpreted as 'bad', according to some.
'Orange man bad!'
'Orange man bad!'
'Orange man bad!'

The idiotic and false fear mongering has reached epic and apocalyptic proportions.

We are, in fact, living in the period of peak stupid.
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For a spell, repubs rebutted everything the left argued with "TDS".


Now, it's evolved to "orange man bad".



And you can't see how stupid you guys sound?
 
Athanasius68 said:
1. There has been a "shah" in Iran since the days of the Roman Empire. Perhaps in Mossadegh hasn't been such an admirer of Stalin he wouldnt have faced such hostility from the West.
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You're being a pedant. You're repeating smears of Mossadegh and being disingenuous about the fact that the Shad had fled the country and the US put him in power as a tyrant with a brutal secret police force.

2. The U.S.A. had the legitimate and strong counteracts against Iran.
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Yet was about to lose a lawsuit having to return the money.
 
Rising Sun said:
They are certainly forgetting that Iran is the world's foremost state supporting terrorism.

Iran and state-sponsored terrorism - Wikipedia
Along with the above allegations, Iran is also accused of other acts of terrorism. Including:

Mykonos restaurant assassinations. On September 17, 1992, Iranian-Kurdish insurgent leaders Sadegh Sharafkandi, Fattah Abdoli, Homayoun Ardalan and their translator Nouri Dehkordi were assassinated at the Mykonos Greek restaurant in Berlin, Germany. In the Mykonos trial, the courts found Kazem Darabi, an Iranian national who worked as a grocer in Berlin, and Lebanese Abbas Rhayel, guilty of murder and sentenced them to life in prison. Two other Lebanese, Youssef Amin and Mohamed Atris, were convicted of being accessories to murder. In its 10 April 1997 ruling, the court issued an international arrest warrant for Iranian intelligence minister Hojjat al-Islam Ali Fallahian[73] after declaring that the assassination had been ordered by him with knowledge of supreme leader Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and president Ayatollah Rafsanjani.[74]

The sponsorship of at least thirty terrorist attacks between 2011 and 2013 "in places as far flung as Thailand, New Delhi, Lagos, and Nairobi", including a 2011 plot to assassinate the Saudi Arabian ambassador to the US and bomb the Israeli and Saudi embassies in Washington, D.C.[35]

Iran Withholding $43 Billion In Restitution to U.S Terror Victims - Washington Free Beacon
Iran is refusing to pay more than $43 billion in court judgments issued to U.S. victims of the Islamic Republic’s terror operations, prompting two leading senators to back an effort that would prohibit the Obama administration from unfreezing more than $150 billion in Iranian assets until that country has settled its debts.

The $43 billion in damages to American terror victims were assessed as a result of some 50 U.S. court cases in recent years, according to official government estimates.

As the Obama administration prepares to release more than $150 billion in unfrozen cash assets to Iran, Congress is demanding that these terror victims finally be awarded their money.
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And Saudi Arabia is what?


Is Iran really ‘the world’s leading state sponsor of terror’? – Channel 4 News

In his 2015 book, ‘Time to Get Tough,’ which was published ahead of the presidential election, Trump wrote: “Then look at Saudi Arabia. It is the world’s biggest funder of terrorism. Saudi Arabia funnels our petrodollars – our very own money – to fund the terrorists that seek to destroy our people, while the Saudis rely on us to protect them.”

To support this, he cites a 2010 article from the Independent, which reports on a secret memo written by the then Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton.

The memo, published by WikiLeaks, says Saudi donors

“constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide”.

Despite some positive steps made by the regime, the memo says: “It has been an ongoing challenge to persuade Saudi officials to treat terrorist financing emanating from Saudi Arabia as a strategic priority.”

Clinton said that Saudi Arabia provided “a critical financial support base for al-Qa’ida, the Taliban, Lashkar-e-Toiba and other terrorist groups, including Hamas, which probably raise millions of dollars annually from Saudi sources.”

As well as the claim in his book, before becoming president Trump tweeted: “Saudi Arabia is already paying ISIS.” He also said that Saudi Arabia wants “women as slaves and to kill gays”.
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OscarLevant said:
It wasn't shot down because of motivation, it was shot down because of error, and error less likely to have occurred but for the fog of war concept.
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It was shot down because of incompetance, at best. At worst, it was intentiomal and the Iranians planned to blame thr USA.
 
OscarLevant said:
At first, I agreed with the Trumpsters that Iran was 100% responsible.

But, on the Smerconish TV show ( he's a lawyer ) he talked about "proximate causality" instructions that are given to juries in civil court, that one effect can have a primary cause, and a number of proximate contributing causes. David Frum, a well known conservative who appears on TV and radio often, makes the case, and I'm inclined to agree.


Trump Broke It. Now He Owns It.




No doubt Iran could have been more careful, disallowing commercial traffic during the "tit for tat" climate as described by Buttigieg, but no doubt the attack on their #2 man caused a panic climate, where "in the fog of war", errors are more likely.


Like Mr. Frump explains, it all started when Trump withdrew from the Iran nuke deal noting that, he had no realistic alternative other than to increase sanctions, as if this is going to cause Iran to come crawling to Trump with their tail between their legs. Trump has an epic failure of grasping the dynamics of foreign policy consequences when it comes to a country like Iran. Moreover, he's been lying about a number of things.

I find it amusing that Trumpsters will sit idley by when Trump makes outrageous claims against dems, but when anyone makes a claim
against Trump, legitimate or otherwise, my my, they get so full of self-righteous indignation all of the sudden.
Click to expand...


More Trump derangement syndrome...everything is the Presidents fault. Nuff said!!
 
OscarLevant said:
At first, I agreed with the Trumpsters that Iran was 100% responsible.

But, on the Smerconish TV show ( he's a lawyer ) he talked about "proximate causality" instructions that are given to juries in civil court, that one effect can have a primary cause, and a number of proximate contributing causes. David Frum, a well known conservative who appears on TV and radio often, makes the case, and I'm inclined to agree.


Trump Broke It. Now He Owns It.




No doubt Iran could have been more careful, disallowing commercial traffic during the "tit for tat" climate as described by Buttigieg, but no doubt the attack on their #2 man caused a panic climate, where "in the fog of war", errors are more likely.


Like Mr. Frump explains, it all started when Trump withdrew from the Iran nuke deal noting that, he had no realistic alternative other than to increase sanctions, as if this is going to cause Iran to come crawling to Trump with their tail between their legs. Trump has an epic failure of grasping the dynamics of foreign policy consequences when it comes to a country like Iran. Moreover, he's been lying about a number of things.

I find it amusing that Trumpsters will sit idley by when Trump makes outrageous claims against dems, but when anyone makes a claim
against Trump, legitimate or otherwise, my my, they get so full of self-righteous indignation all of the sudden.
Click to expand...

Smerconish is a testicle with glasses and a goatee.
 
OscarLevant said:
As opposed to 3 months down the road without the deal?


America can do a lot to fortify it's position in 10 years. It was the best deal Obama could muster. What deal is Trump getting from Iran? NADA.
Click to expand...

So a half-assed agreement doomed to failure is better than nothing at all? I tend to disagree. Appeasement never works.
 
apdst said:
It was shot down because of incompetance, at best. At worst, it was intentiomal and the Iranians planned to blame thr USA.
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It was incompetence...or at least a major mistake. The Iranians aren't stupid like the Saudis. They would know the missile launch would be seen.
 
OscarLevant said:
At first, I agreed with the Trumpsters that Iran was 100% responsible.

But, on the Smerconish TV show ( he's a lawyer ) he talked about "proximate causality" instructions that are given to juries in civil court, that one effect can have a primary cause, and a number of proximate contributing causes. David Frum, a well known conservative who appears on TV and radio often, makes the case, and I'm inclined to agree.


Trump Broke It. Now He Owns It.




No doubt Iran could have been more careful, disallowing commercial traffic during the "tit for tat" climate as described by Buttigieg, but no doubt the attack on their #2 man caused a panic climate, where "in the fog of war", errors are more likely.


Like Mr. Frump explains, it all started when Trump withdrew from the Iran nuke deal noting that, he had no realistic alternative other than to increase sanctions, as if this is going to cause Iran to come crawling to Trump with their tail between their legs. Trump has an epic failure of grasping the dynamics of foreign policy consequences when it comes to a country like Iran. Moreover, he's been lying about a number of things.

I find it amusing that Trumpsters will sit idley by when Trump makes outrageous claims against dems, but when anyone makes a claim
against Trump, legitimate or otherwise, my my, they get so full of self-righteous indignation all of the sudden.
Click to expand...

LOL. You guys will stop at nothing. You have no shame whatsoever. Whatever anti-Trump thing you can dream up, you dream up.
 
OscarLevant said:
For a spell, repubs rebutted everything the left argued with "TDS".


Now, it's evolved to "orange man bad".



And you can't see how stupid you guys sound?
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Is 3 months considered imminent?


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OscarLevant said:
The predominant "but for..." gives you the answer

If you go before the pulling out of the Iran deal you would not have had the climate to have caused this so the final "But for"where the causality chain begins is the pulling out of Iran deal

No using your logic nothing has really changed since we established the Shah of Iran and which is kind of absurd to go back that far
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It's always easy to see when you have lost your argument because all the but fors and whataboutisam accusations start being flung around.
 
OscarLevant said:
And Saudi Arabia is what?
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Literally "what - aboutism". LOL Yes, Saudi have a very serious problem with Wahhabists and Wahhabists in their midsts. From what I've read over the decades, they were more concerned that the Wahhabists would revolt and take down the Royal family like Lenin did the Romanovs that the Saudis have found themselves looking the other way more often than they should. The good news is that they are dependent upon the US for arms and training which allows leverage with them.
 
OscarLevant said:
It wasn't shot down because of motivation, it was shot down because of error, and error less likely to have occurred but for the fog of war concept.
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Agreed. The Iranians should never have attacked us, killing one American and wounding up to 21 more.
 
OscarLevant said:
For a spell, repubs rebutted everything the left argued with "TDS".


Now, it's evolved to "orange man bad".



And you can't see how stupid you guys sound?
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Since the left's immediate and consistent reaction to anything Trump does is that it is always bad, can't you from the left see how stupid you guys sound?

The TDS / Orange man bad cry is a reflection of how the left is appearing to others.
 
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