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Thread: Our satellites saw the missles launch and take out the Ukrainian 737.

  1. #151
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    Re: Our satellites saw the missles launch and take out the Ukrainian 737.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    Your cognitive dissonance does not allow you to accept the facts on both the MH17 and the Ukrainian jet were taken down by ground to air rockets. One fired by a group supported by Russia and one by Iran military.

    Yes, we discuss a lot of things. Your views never change even when provided information that goes against that view.

    Good to see that on another thread you started that you accept that Iran did shoot down the Ukrainian jet with a rocket.
    An air rocket? As opposed to a ground rocket I suppose?

    MH17 was not brought down by a BUK. If it had been, the US would have shown us the sign of the BUK launch. Or even the BBC would have shown us the BUK launch trail.

    But there was no such trail, no sign whatsoever. Only the word of men known very well for their mendacity and deception.

    And unlike the wreckage of the 737 in Iran, the wreckage of MH17 clearly showed cannon fire marks, but it was quickly taken down from public view, FOR A REASON.

    A reason you prefer to ignore.

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    Re: Our satellites saw the missles launch and take out the Ukrainian 737.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau72 View Post
    An air rocket? As opposed to a ground rocket I suppose?

    MH17 was not brought down by a BUK. If it had been, the US would have shown us the sign of the BUK launch. Or even the BBC would have shown us the BUK launch trail.

    But there was no such trail, no sign whatsoever. Only the word of men known very well for their mendacity and deception.

    And unlike the wreckage of the 737 in Iran, the wreckage of MH17 clearly showed cannon fire marks, but it was quickly taken down from public view, FOR A REASON.

    A reason you prefer to ignore.
    There you go using Veterans Today and others like it as your source of information.

    At least you got the Iran incident correct.
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    Re: Our satellites saw the missles launch and take out the Ukrainian 737.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    There you go using Veterans Today and others like it as your source of information.

    At least you got the Iran incident correct.
    There I go again doing that damn independent thinking, eh Mike?

    There you go again believing the claims of known liars.

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    Re: Our satellites saw the missles launch and take out the Ukrainian 737.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau72 View Post
    There I go again doing that damn independent thinking, eh Mike?

    There you go again believing the claims of known liars.



    The evidence shows and the Iranian government has said they shot down the Ukrainian 737. The Iranian government lied at first by saying they did not. When the evidence became clear, they fessed up.

    Your distain for the US government is well known. It clouds your "free thinking".


    Veterans Today must have told you were a free thinker . It is interesting if one follows your posts how your comments are made here after VToday and/or other sources you use print a story which you just paraphrase. You didn't start using congnetive dissonant until after one of your sources did. Why is that?

    My comment stands. You use the "known liars" all the time. Yes, at times the US Govt. has lied. Do you believe Putin has never lied? How about the leaders in Iran?
    Your VToday editor admits he lies. So why do you believe that publication?
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    Re: Our satellites saw the missles launch and take out the Ukrainian 737.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post



    The evidence shows and the Iranian government has said they shot down the Ukrainian 737. The Iranian government lied at first by saying they did not. When the evidence became clear, they fessed up.

    Your distain for the US government is well known. It clouds your "free thinking".


    Veterans Today must have told you were a free thinker . It is interesting if one follows your posts how your comments are made here after VToday and/or other sources you use print a story which you just paraphrase. You didn't start using congnetive dissonant until after one of your sources did. Why is that?

    My comment stands. You use the "known liars" all the time. Yes, at times the US Govt. has lied. Do you believe Putin has never lied? How about the leaders in Iran?
    Your VToday editor admits he lies. So why do you believe that publication?
    Disdain, sir. Not distain.

    All foreign leaders lie, but most of them don't brag about being the land of the free and home of the brave. Most of them don't invade other countries claiming "we are delivering peace, justice and democracy".

    The facts are that the US government does more in the way of deception, military aggression, torture and rendition than the rest of the governments put together.

    It's the hypocrisy, Mike, which you either defend or ignore.

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    Re: Our satellites saw the missles launch and take out the Ukrainian 737.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau72 View Post
    Disdain, sir. Not distain.

    All foreign leaders lie, but most of them don't brag about being the land of the free and home of the brave. Most of them don't invade other countries claiming "we are delivering peace, justice and democracy".

    The facts are that the US government does more in the way of deception, military aggression, torture and rendition than the rest of the governments put together.

    It's the hypocrisy, Mike, which you either defend or ignore.
    Thanks for being the typing police.

    Noted: Your response is a non answer. Have a good one. I pretty much knew this would be your response.

    Provide links to back up your statement of " the US government does more in the way of deception, military aggression, torture and rendition than the rest of the governments put together." I will give the one in which our current President (Trump) brags a great deal. imo, Trump is a terrible President.
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    If we have data, let's look at the data. if all we have is opinions let's go with mine
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    Re: Our satellites saw the missles launch and take out the Ukrainian 737.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    Thanks for being the typing police.

    Noted: Your response is a non answer. Have a good one. I pretty much knew this would be your response.

    Provide links to back up your statement of " the US government does more in the way of deception, military aggression, torture and rendition than the rest of the governments put together." I will give the one in which our current President (Trump) brags a great deal. imo, Trump is a terrible President.
    You can lead a horse to water sir, but you cannot make him drink. You can lead a man to knowledge, but you cannot make him think. An honest and rational discussion is not likely with those in denial of reality.

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    Re: Our satellites saw the missles launch and take out the Ukrainian 737.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau72 View Post
    You can lead a horse to water sir, but you cannot make him drink. You can lead a man to knowledge, but you cannot make him think. An honest and rational discussion is not likely with those in denial of reality.
    One can not have a rational discussion with someone who lives in an alternative reality.

    This thread is done.
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    If we have data, let's look at the data. if all we have is opinions let's go with mine
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    Re: Our satellites saw the missles launch and take out the Ukrainian 737.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Wouldn't know. Perhaps the targeting system mistook it for an American aircraft or something? It's being reported that it was accidental at this point. Apparently Iran has asked for help in the investigation as well. So I suppose we may learn more as this is looked into.
    That is not how they work.

    Besides, the aircraft was taking off from the airport when they shot it down. I guess that was possible,if an American aircraft was taking off from their airport. But what are the odds of that?
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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    Re: Our satellites saw the missles launch and take out the Ukrainian 737.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Nobody said that, why make that up?

    You claimed it was intentional based on spurious understanding of aviation communications. Pointing out your probably-faulty assumptions is not defending the shoot down of an airliner.

    Civilian aircraft broadcast their position... on civilian air traffic control frequencies. The crew of a SAM site may or may not have been monitoring that frequency at all.

    The most likely explanation is that the missile crew somehow mistook the aircraft for a threat, and fired. A tragic mistake with dire consequences, and the Iranians will need to seriously investigate how that occurred, but itís still a mistake. Nobody in Iran stands to gain from shooting down a Ukrainian airliner.

    Nobody fired on a plane over Iraq, I donít know why you put that in giant, bold, underlined text. Can you elaborate?
    In all the information I am reading about this incident, I unable to really make sense of this incident.

    Now here is what is believed to be known. The aircraft had just taken off from the airport in Tehran, and it was shot by what is believed to be a Tor (SA-15 GAUNTLET) missile. That missile hit, and then 30 seconds later a second missile was fired which also hit. The black box was damaged in the first blast, and the plane exploded before it could return to the airport.

    Now the "official position" is that it was mistakenly thought to have been a cruise missile, and was shot down for that reason.

    And I am sorry, that is complete and utter coprolite. Only an acceptable claim if their Air Defense Missile individuals are poorly trained, and have the IQ of only slightly retarded chimps. The flight path, speed, altitude, approach vector, RADAR return, and everything else about a Boeing 737 taking off is nothing like that of an inbound cruise missile.

    There must be something else in play here, unless Iran is hoping that absolutely nobody who understands these things realizes that their claim is nonsense. But the ripple fire of 2 missiles 30 seconds apart shows that it was shot down on purpose, of that I have no doubt at all.

    A Tomahawk flies at 550 kph. The jet shot down, 275 kph. A Tomahawk cruises on average from 100-300 feet above the surface. The jet was at just under 8,000 feet and climbing. On RADAR, a Tomahawk looks some thing like a small sportscar. A Boeing 737 is something like a giant bus. The RADAR cross-sections and return are absolutely nothing like that of a cruise missile.

    And then there is the matter of their IFF system,and what kind of command and control they have over their systems. I know that in a US Battery of this type, it will generally take a Brigade-Theater Commander or higher to even authorize a weapon hot condition. And at least a Battalion Commander to authorize a Battery to go hot even after given those permissions.

    How in the hell could the operator have missed the fact that this "missile" just suddenly appeared over the airport, with absolutely no sightings of it approaching the largest city in the country? I have actually been assigned to defend airbases, we never cared what was leaving them, only what was coming to them.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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