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Republicans, what is wrong with you on Cuba?

Craig234

Craig234

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There's this place called Cuba 90 miles from the US.

For over 50 years, the US has launched an economic war on Cuba, a total block on the 'free trade' we love to say we're for.

This has caused a lot of harm to the Cuban people, for what reason?

The boycott was put in place as a power move to protest Cuba as a Soviet-friendly satellite. Put aside the question whether our actions did a lot to drive Fidel Castro into the arms of the Soviets; it happened, and that was our response (as well as an invasion and assassination attempts). The boycott was totally ineffective at changing the situation.

But let's look at now. The Soviets are gone (and Russia is now the owner of our president). Castros no longer rule Cuba. There isn't a shred of an argument that our boycott is causing some positive change for Cuba after more than 50 years.

But let's also look at the effect on us. Cuba is filled with Europeans enjoying tourism there - very few Americans do. We lose the economic benefits of trade with Cuba the rest of the world enjoys - selling to them, getting their products. You know, the whole 'free trade' benefits.

I'll give the one reason I see for continuing the economic war on Cuba: idiocy. Sheer irrational, ignorant, blind, stubborn idiocy.

I'd like you to give a better reason for our continuing the economic war, harming both sides - a war that was thawing a lot under Obama, on track for likely ending, but now back firmly continuing.
 
Craig234 said:
There's this place called Cuba 90 miles from the US.

For over 50 years, the US has launched an economic war on Cuba, a total block on the 'free trade' we love to say we're for.

This has caused a lot of harm to the Cuban people, for what reason?

The boycott was put in place as a power move to protest Cuba as a Soviet-friendly satellite. Put aside the question whether our actions did a lot to drive Fidel Castro into the arms of the Soviets; it happened, and that was our response (as well as an invasion and assassination attempts). The boycott was totally ineffective at changing the situation.

But let's look at now. The Soviets are gone (and Russia is now the owner of our president). Castros no longer rule Cuba. There isn't a shred of an argument that our boycott is causing some positive change for Cuba after more than 50 years.

But let's also look at the effect on us. Cuba is filled with Europeans enjoying tourism there - very few Americans do. We lose the economic benefits of trade with Cuba the rest of the world enjoys - selling to them, getting their products. You know, the whole 'free trade' benefits.

I'll give the one reason I see for continuing the economic war on Cuba: idiocy. Sheer irrational, ignorant, blind, stubborn idiocy.

I'd like you to give a better reason for our continuing the economic war, harming both sides - a war that was thawing a lot under Obama, on track for likely ending, but now back firmly continuing.
Click to expand...

Cuba is a brutal dictatorship which has sponsored and supported terrorist groups and insurgents for decades as well as conducting imperial “adventures” in Africa.

Putting aside the fact that Europeans are laughably hypocritical, it remains a brutal dictatorship and should not be rewarded for continuing to be one.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Cuba is a brutal dictatorship which has sponsored and supported terrorist groups and insurgents for decades as well as conducting imperial “adventures” in Africa.

Putting aside the fact that Europeans are laughably hypocritical, it remains a brutal dictatorship and should not be rewarded for continuing to be one.
Click to expand...

Two words.

Saudi Arabia.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Cuba is a brutal dictatorship which has sponsored and supported terrorist groups and insurgents for decades as well as conducting imperial “adventures” in Africa.

Putting aside the fact that Europeans are laughably hypocritical, it remains a brutal dictatorship and should not be rewarded for continuing to be one.
Click to expand...

Yet Trump rewards NK which is WORSE than Cuba and said he and the NK leader were "in-love". Do explain that hypocrisy first. Also mention why Saudi Arabia and a host of other brutal dictatorships should be given American love like that have while Cuba does not.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Two words.

Saudi Arabia.
Click to expand...

I agree, we shouldn’t give Saudi Arabia a pass either.

On the other hand, desperately shrieking “but Saudi Arabia” every time an anti American dictatorship is criticized does not excuse their actions.
 
Praxas said:
Yet Trump rewards NK which is WORSE than Cuba and said he and the NK leader were "in-love". Do explain that hypocrisy first. Also mention why Saudi Arabia and a host of other brutal dictatorships should be given American love like that have while Cuba does not.
Click to expand...

So.....we should give more brutal dictators support? That sounds like a rather dumb idea. We should be cutting down on the number of dictators we help, not supporting any more simply because they are anti American.

Donald Trump is a moron. What he says is a non factor.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Saudi Arabia.
Click to expand...

So, we're for economic war against IMAGINARY things Cuba isn't doing, while we're on the side of the people actually murdering people wrongly, like Saudi Arabia, because we make money from it.
 
Craig234 said:
There's this place called Cuba 90 miles from the US.

For over 50 years, the US has launched an economic war on Cuba, a total block on the 'free trade' we love to say we're for.

This has caused a lot of harm to the Cuban people, for what reason?

The boycott was put in place as a power move to protest Cuba as a Soviet-friendly satellite. Put aside the question whether our actions did a lot to drive Fidel Castro into the arms of the Soviets; it happened, and that was our response (as well as an invasion and assassination attempts). The boycott was totally ineffective at changing the situation.

But let's look at now. The Soviets are gone (and Russia is now the owner of our president). Castros no longer rule Cuba. There isn't a shred of an argument that our boycott is causing some positive change for Cuba after more than 50 years.

But let's also look at the effect on us. Cuba is filled with Europeans enjoying tourism there - very few Americans do. We lose the economic benefits of trade with Cuba the rest of the world enjoys - selling to them, getting their products. You know, the whole 'free trade' benefits.

I'll give the one reason I see for continuing the economic war on Cuba: idiocy. Sheer irrational, ignorant, blind, stubborn idiocy.
Click to expand...

Well then you aren't cynical enough.

While there is no "The" reason for U.S. policy towards Cuba, a major one is:

Cubans made up a significant voting bloc in a swing state (Florida) that Presidential candidates From Both Parties very much wanted to capture. They were staunchly anti-Castro, and so, given the U.S. natural opposition to Communism, it was easy for anyone who wanted to win the state of Florida at the national level to seek to gain that support by maintaining an opposition stance to Castro, publicly justified by anti-Communism and pro-humanitarianism rather than domestic electoral concerns.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Two words.

Saudi Arabia.
Click to expand...

I have never understood the argument that, if we cannot oppose evil everywhere it exists, we cannot oppose it anywhere it exists.
 
cpwill said:
Well then you aren't cynical enough.

While there is no "The" reason for U.S. policy towards Cuba, a major one is:

Cubans made up a significant voting bloc in a swing state (Florida) that Presidential candidates From Both Parties very much wanted to capture. They were staunchly anti-Castro, and so, given the U.S. natural opposition to Communism, it was easy for anyone who wanted to win the state of Florida at the national level to seek to gain that support by maintaining an opposition stance to Castro, publicly justified by anti-Communism and pro-humanitarianism rather than domestic electoral concerns.
Click to expand...

But your post is about when Fidel Castro ruled Cuba in the cold war. Not today. Even Cubans in Florida, especially younger ones, are moving away from the economic warfare on Cuba.

Poll: Cuban-Americans Shift in Favor of Normalizing U.S.-Cuba Relations - The Atlantic
 
Tigerace117 said:
I agree, we shouldn’t give Saudi Arabia a pass either.

On the other hand, desperately shrieking “but Saudi Arabia” every time an anti American dictatorship is criticized does not excuse their actions.
Click to expand...

cpwill said:
I have never understood the argument that, if we cannot oppose evil everywhere it exists, we cannot oppose it anywhere it exists.
Click to expand...

From a moral standpoint I agree, but as a matter of government policy and being a realistic, you’re far more likely to get a positive outcome by engaging with Cuba because of the potential to gain quite a bit of economic leverage, then you are to continue the pointless policy of embargo which, if originally intended to starve the nation of economic and diplomatic prospects in order in the long term to produce political change has been an utter failure.

The policy had endured for two reasons, stupid, Cold War era thinking and Cuban voters in Florida.

America does not care or conduct its diplomatic relations on the basis of human rights unless it’s really politically untenable or economically and strategically not an issue, never has, never will.
 
cpwill said:
I have never understood the argument that, if we cannot oppose evil everywhere it exists, we cannot oppose it anywhere it exists.
Click to expand...

What a distorted, misleading, garbled way to describe our supporting an actually monstrous regime for the worst reason - because we make money from it, and in particular because trump makes money - while we have an utterly ineffectual for any good, yet harmful and evil policy of economic warfare against Cuba now, who isn't doing anything like Saudi's war on Yemen.
 
Jetboogieman said:
America does not care or conduct its diplomatic relations on the basis of human rights unless it’s really politically untenable or economically and strategically not an issue, never has, never will.
Click to expand...

Actually, briefly, President Carter made human rights a central part of our policies; and I'd say various president have made them a priority at times, including, for example, JFK who created this economic boycott and I'm sure would support its repeal now.
 
Craig234 said:
There's this place called Cuba 90 miles from the US.

For over 50 years, the US has launched an economic war on Cuba, a total block on the 'free trade' we love to say we're for.

This has caused a lot of harm to the Cuban people, for what reason?

The boycott was put in place as a power move to protest Cuba as a Soviet-friendly satellite. Put aside the question whether our actions did a lot to drive Fidel Castro into the arms of the Soviets; it happened, and that was our response (as well as an invasion and assassination attempts). The boycott was totally ineffective at changing the situation.

But let's look at now. The Soviets are gone (and Russia is now the owner of our president). Castros no longer rule Cuba. There isn't a shred of an argument that our boycott is causing some positive change for Cuba after more than 50 years.

But let's also look at the effect on us. Cuba is filled with Europeans enjoying tourism there - very few Americans do. We lose the economic benefits of trade with Cuba the rest of the world enjoys - selling to them, getting their products. You know, the whole 'free trade' benefits.

I'll give the one reason I see for continuing the economic war on Cuba: idiocy. Sheer irrational, ignorant, blind, stubborn idiocy.

I'd like you to give a better reason for our continuing the economic war, harming both sides - a war that was thawing a lot under Obama, on track for likely ending, but now back firmly continuing.
Click to expand...

Government solves all problems for the right wing; they only allege to be capitalists in socialism threads.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Cuba is a brutal dictatorship which has sponsored and supported terrorist groups and insurgents for decades as well as conducting imperial “adventures” in Africa.

Putting aside the fact that Europeans are laughably hypocritical, it remains a brutal dictatorship and should not be rewarded for continuing to be one.
Click to expand...

Wasn't the previous government of Cuba which we backed also a brutal dictatorship? Which ones are the good dictatorships? The ones which align with American interests?
 
Jetboogieman said:
From a moral standpoint I agree, but as a matter of government policy and being a realistic, you’re far more likely to get a positive outcome by engaging with Cuba because of the potential to gain quite a bit of economic leverage, then you are to continue the pointless policy of embargo which, if originally intended to starve the nation of economic and diplomatic prospects in order in the long term to produce political change has been an utter failure.
Click to expand...

It strikes me that this is unlikely; dictatorships have many weaknesses, but one of their strengths' is that they can accept economic harm to their people as a result of policy decisions far more easily. I think it is far more likely that we will get continued abuse of our diplomatic personnel.

Would you say, for example, that China has become a happier, freer, more humane place since we began to massively open ourselves to them economically? Or are they running mass concentration camps, instituting actual genocide against the Uighurs, and developing incredibly creepy mass-surveillance over their entire population?

The policy had endured for two reasons, stupid, Cold War era thinking and Cuban voters in Florida.
Click to expand...

Likely. I would add "momentum". It's always easier to leave something in place than make the push and burn the political credit to change it.

America does not care or conduct its diplomatic relations on the basis of human rights unless it’s really politically untenable or economically and strategically not an issue, never has, never will.
Click to expand...

This is not correct - America has prioritized human rights differently in different scenarios and at different times. There is no "The" American foreign policy any more than there is "The" American President in history or "The" situation we have found ourselves in.
 
Irredentist said:
Wasn't the previous government of Cuba which we backed also a brutal dictatorship? Which ones are the good dictatorships? The ones which align with American interests?
Click to expand...

Singapore comes to mind? Ish?
 
Jetboogieman said:
From a moral standpoint I agree, but as a matter of government policy and being a realistic, you’re far more likely to get a positive outcome by engaging with Cuba because of the potential to gain quite a bit of economic leverage, then you are to continue the pointless policy of embargo which, if originally intended to starve the nation of economic and diplomatic prospects in order in the long term to produce political change has been an utter failure.

The policy had endured for two reasons, stupid, Cold War era thinking and Cuban voters in Florida.

America does not care or conduct its diplomatic relations on the basis of human rights unless it’s really politically untenable or economically and strategically not an issue, never has, never will.
Click to expand...

“Engaging”

One could easily argue that we have been “engaging” with Saudi Arabia for years, yet they continue the same old practices. The argument that if only we stop opposing brutal dictators that they will learn the error of their ways and reform simply does not seem to be true.
 
Irredentist said:
Wasn't the previous government of Cuba which we backed also a brutal dictatorship? Which ones are the good dictatorships? The ones which align with American interests?
Click to expand...


“Good” dictatorships are ones which are fighting worse ones, and even then the quotation marks still apply.

There has been such a thing as a benevolent dictatorship, but not often, and Cuba certainly would not qualify as one.
 
Tigerace117 said:
“Good” dictatorships are ones which are fighting worse ones, and even then the quotation marks still apply.

There has been such a thing as a benevolent dictatorship, but not often, and Cuba certainly would not qualify as one.
Click to expand...

Worse dictatorships in whose eyes? The people of that country? Or American politicians?
 
Hey, I thought the left was in a lather because Trump supposedly cozies up to dictators but here they are wanting him to cozy up to a dictator. They need to make up their minds, if that is at all a possible thing.
 
Tigerace117 said:
“Engaging”

One could easily argue that we have been “engaging” with Saudi Arabia for years, yet they continue the same old practices. The argument that if only we stop opposing brutal dictators that they will learn the error of their ways and reform simply does not seem to be true.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say that's entirely accurate. Saudi Arabia has been slowly reforming and "liberalizing" recently. Albeit at an extremely conservative pace.
 
cpwill said:
Well then you aren't cynical enough.

While there is no "The" reason for U.S. policy towards Cuba, a major one is:

Cubans made up a significant voting bloc in a swing state (Florida) that Presidential candidates From Both Parties very much wanted to capture. They were staunchly anti-Castro, and so, given the U.S. natural opposition to Communism, it was easy for anyone who wanted to win the state of Florida at the national level to seek to gain that support by maintaining an opposition stance to Castro, publicly justified by anti-Communism and pro-humanitarianism rather than domestic electoral concerns.
Click to expand...
You're not wrong.

But those people are dying. The anti-Castro Cuban ex-pats are dying, and their children don't share their feverish single-issue politics.
 
The US could easily make their dictatorship crumble by simply throwing the weight of the US economy at Cuba. Pour enough dollars into the system that their government cannot cope with the influx of it all.

You would find major obstacles to do that though, but in Cuba if more people make way more money than the government can control then the government loses control.
 
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