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Live Senate Judiciary Hearing on IG Report, 12_11

Obscurity said:
LOL.

Ok. By your standard, everything said in the impeachment hearings are also completely, 100% valid, since they were all said by experts.

That matters, too.

Sashay away now.
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oh yeah? they are experts in what President Donald Trump thinks and his intentions are? wow that is a very Narrow field of study. because that is what their opinions were about you know.

meanwhile the inspector general is an expert on the legal aspects of surveillance practices and methods.

I mean, it is necessary to be an expert in the FIELD you are speaking of, you know.
 
Hypothetical said:
oh yeah? they are experts in what President Donald Trump thinks and hi intentions are? wow that is a very Narrow field of study. because that is what their opinions were about you know.

meanwhile the inspector general is an expert on the legal aspects of surveillance practices and methods.

I mean, it is necessary to be an expert in the FIELD you are speaking of, you know.
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So Horowitz is an expert in how those FBI agents think?

LOL.

My god man you're embarassing yourself here.
 
CaughtInThe said:
oh, i saw it. i'm mainly talking about how your President took your money and extorted a foreign country for his own personal gain and you (and people like you) have been covering for him ever since. with Rush and Sean leading the way of course.

that would not fly in 1790. our founders didn't want presidents extorting Spain or whomever for themselves.

that is the gist of this whole thing. what Trump supporters are now doing is what a mafia lawyer or a gangbanger's mom or OJ would do. they're trying to find a loophole or a procedural violation.

no honor. no integrity.
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This thread is about the IG report and the testimony of it's author, Michael Horowitz.

Can you stick to the topic, or is derailing the thread your only reason for being here?

If your TDS is that overwhelming that you must vent your hatred, then why don't you vent your anger in one of the thousands of threads on this forum designed for that purpose.
 
Hypothetical said:
well perhaps they have evidence the IG doesn't have. we'll have to wait to see. I think they would be ok though, in changing their terminology if necessary, if they can still get rid of some bad apples for illegal surveillance.
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The term spying has been used by Barr who knows better and Trump who may or may not know ANYTHING for its political impact. For Barr to know that even if there is wrongdoing by the FBI with regard to this topic, its illegal surveillance and not spying yet continue to use the term spying is despicable.
 
Obscurity said:
So Horowitz is an expert in how those FBI agents think?

LOL.

My god man you're embarassing yourself here.
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LOL wow am i? it sure doesn't feel like it.

obviously what the FBI agents THINK is not what is at issue here. You see you are trying to compare apples and oranges.

what is at issue is whether the KNOWN FACTS of how they continued an investigation and actually carried out that investigation were legal or illegal, which is a field in which the IG is an expert and has made a statement under oath about.

see how that all fits together like a well done puzzle?


unfortunately on the other side , where the only "evidence" is what Trump MAY have thought is like cramming random cardboard into a wood chipper and hoping the taj mahal comes out.
 
Hypothetical said:
LOL wow am i? it sure doesn't feel like it.

obviously what the FBI agents THINK is not what is at issue here. You see you are trying to compare apples and oranges.

what is at issue is whether the KNOWN FACTS of how they continued an investigation and actually carried out that investigation were legal or illegal, which is a field in which the IG is an expert and has made a statement under oath about.

see how that all fits together like a well done puzzle?
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Hey man, whatever you gotta tell yourself to keep the charade up.

You're being manipulated. Wake up.
 
Obscurity said:
They sure can answer it while sounding principled. They've fought for this for decades and that's why they're fighting this impeachment so radically. This is the culmination of their efforts, and with this presidency, our fate is decided.
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Sound principled but not honest in what they actually believe.

Is it principled to force a religious belief onto other people? Is it principled to promote “us versus them” mentality?

Does the legitimacy of their authority rely on the consent of the governed? Or is enforced through night makes right?

Theocrats have forgotten their own moral values: they are trying to ascend to heaven on a staircase of sin.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Sound principled but not honest in what they actually believe.

Is it principled to force a religious belief onto other people? Is it principled to promote “us versus them” mentality?

Does the legitimacy of their authority rely on the consent of the governed? Or is enforced through night makes right?

Theocrats have forgotten their own moral values: they are trying to ascend to heaven on a staircase of sin.
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And will leave, willingly, behind them a carcass picked clean, and a legacy of ash.
 
Obscurity said:
Are you saying all the witnesses at the impeachment hearings have been lying for weeks?
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They were offering their opinion.

Now,did Horowitz lie about his own report, this morning?
 
jnug said:
Surveillance, illegal or otherwise is not spying or espionage. If the FBI sent in undercover agents to learn about the Trump Campaign strategy THAT WOULD BE SPYING. Looking for Russian Contacts is not spying, its surveillance.

Spying comes from the French "Espionage". If a competing company sends undercover agents into your company in order to learn your trade secrets and then use them against you or for their own benefit (same dif) that is INDUSTRIAL OR CORPORATE ESPIONAGE OR INDUSTRIAL OR CORPORATE SPYING. If the FBI went into the Trump Campaign intending to learn their campaign strategy or possibly steal their proprietary polling data and then turn it over to the Clinton campaign THAT would have been spying.
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You're arguing semantics.
Illegal surveillance is illegal spying.
Note: IG Michael Horowitz simply chose the former rhetoric when describing what happened.

Furthermore, Horowitz said anyone who participated in this illegal activity is not vindicated.
 
jnug said:
Not now that Durham has proven to be a political hack. All you are going to get our of a Durham report if there ever is one is more barricades for your Trumpian silo. Durham has already tainted himself beyond repair for everybody else.
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John Durham is not a political hack.
You seem upset by all this, hence you lie.
 
Obscurity said:
And?

The IG report also concluded there was no political bias - dismissing the notion it was a witch hunt.

So let's agree here, shall we?

Russia is responsible for this divide. Not Ukraine. Russia. Further, Papadopolous (Sp?) with his big mouth set off the FISA application, which was also partially supported by the Steele Dossier, which was legal, paid for oppo research, which originated from a right wing publication (which you were educated on in the other thread). The FBI ignored/missed/disregarded exculpatory evidence. Either way you slice it, Mueller's investigation was legitimate, there was no witch hunt.

If anything, Mueller's investigation proved the narrative Trump and Friends are using is wrong, there was no Ukrainian incursion, it was, and always has been, Russia.

On the last sentence, I hope you'll agree. If not, we have nothing further to discuss.
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I'm not arguing political bias.
Your attempt to move the goal posts instead of actually discussing illegal surveillance is telling...

You're dismissed.
 
Hypothetical said:
ruh roh
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Precisely. Oh, and look at how the anti-Trumps, at least the usual suspects, minimize Horowitz's testimony.

They are doing their usual cherry-picking of his report, (no political bias), and ignore the parts of his testimony (there was illegal surveillance and no one who participated is vindicated) that go against the anti-Trumps' preconceived biases.
 
This didn't go well for the Leftists...lol
 
trixare4kids said:
Just wait until the Durham report comes out if you want to see "damning" for the FBI.
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I think Horowitz's report showing devastating evidence of FISA abuse and lying to the FISC court and as the renewals continued the abuse and lies to the FISC increased. As soon as the report was released, Comey and McCabe were on TV claiming exoneration. Comey went as far as to drop an opinion piece at WaPo trashing AG Barr and U.S. Atty John Durham. He continued his trashing of them on Twitter. But what this report reveals is why Durham's investigation turned into a criminal one.

Horowitz made a statement this morning that anyone involved in the FISA warrant process has not been vindicated.
 
trixare4kids said:
John Durham is not a political hack.
You seem upset by all this, hence you lie.
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Why would Durham and Barr comment on active investigations? You do not do that period.
 
vesper said:
I think Horowitz's report showing devastating evidence of FISA abuse and lying to the FISC court and as the renewals continued the abuse and lies to the FISC increased. As soon as the report was released, Comey and McCabe were on TV claiming exoneration. Comey went as far as to drop an opinion piece at WaPo trashing AG Barr and U.S. Atty John Durham. He continued his trashing of them on Twitter. But what this report reveals is why Durham's investigation turned into a criminal one.

Horowitz made a statement this morning that anyone involved in the FISA warrant process has not been vindicated.
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It will come down to intent.
 
jnug said:
Not now that Durham has proven to be a political hack. All you are going to get our of a Durham report if there ever is one is more barricades for your Trumpian silo. Durham has already tainted himself beyond repair for everybody else.
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Prove it
 
apdst said:
:lamo
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You’re happy about this entire investigation? Trump’s people have been arrested and are in jail. I guess the “I only hire the best people” statement is BS.
 
trixare4kids said:
You're arguing semantics.
Illegal surveillance is illegal spying.
Note: IG Michael Horowitz simply chose the former rhetoric when describing what happened.

Furthermore, Horowitz said anyone who participated in this illegal activity is not vindicated.
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No its not. Its not remotely a matter of semantics. Spying is spying and surveillance legal or illegal is surveillance. Read post #86 with your eyes open this time. Post #86 is not an opinion. What is contained there is fact.
 
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