Since collusion has been determined to not be a crime, should it be???

Mycroft said:

I'm citing the report and Barr's decision. You may not want to accept those two things, but that doesn't matter. It is what it is.

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Yup it is what it is. Barr is a political hack. Looks like he might be about to prove it again.

RetiredUSN said:

Nothing is proven.

Speculation, presumptions, and hearsay will not fly with the Senate where there are at least a few adults in the room.

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Yeah you go ahead and cling to that fantasy...

And as I suspected only trump supporters are apposed to making collusion a crime.

Why do you suppose that is???

jnug said:

Yup it is what it is. Barr is a political hack. Looks like he might be about to prove it again.

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He's not just a hack he is a co conspirator.

When all is said and done more people will go to jail than Watergate...

GDViking said:

Yeah you go ahead and cling to that fantasy...

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Reality is obviously a word that you cannot understand.

Trump isn't going any wheres.

And if the liberal clown show can't find a decent candidate to get behind, then Trump will bludgeon the Democrats again in 2020.

RetiredUSN said:

Reality is obviously a word that you cannot understand.

Trump isn't going any wheres.

And if the liberal clown show can't find a decent candidate to get behind, then Trump will bludgeon the Democrats again in 2020.

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Your trip anything like this one?

GDViking said:

And as I suspected only trump supporters are apposed to making collusion a crime.

Why do you suppose that is???

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Please define what a Trump supporter is.

Rexedgar said:

Your trip anything like this one?

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Trip is off until April.

Son just landed a nice drywall contract after another bidder suddenly backed out. Job starts Monday with a deadline of March 1st.

4 buildings with about 1800 boards each.

We just rounded up a 3 man crew today.

GDViking said:

I think the house should pass a bill outlawing the collusion that the trump campaign and now the trump administration has been involved with.

We can actually get senators and congressmen on record as to their support of America or hostile foreign nations...

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It certainly needs to be tightened up a bit. If I had been so inclined to collude with a foreign government to cheat in an election, I too would have done it in secret and lied about it, because I just would have assumed that sort of thing would be illegal.

Rexedgar said:

Your trip anything like this one?

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Thank you for that, I have seen a lot of fishing show even been in a few, my old man fished with and against the linders winkleman and the rest. But next to the very short lived ESPN show "fish on" this may be my favorite fishing video...

GDViking said:

I think the house should pass a bill outlawing the collusion that the trump campaign and now the trump administration has been involved with.

We can actually get senators and congressmen on record as to their support of America or hostile foreign nations...

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All that's needed is a thoughtful and careful rethink of "criminal conspiracy" legislation.
After all, it's not a stretch to include the WORD "collusion" in with "conspiracy", is it??
They pretty much are synonyms.

Mycroft said:

When Rosenstein lost his job (AAG), Mueller decided he was going to work for Congress...not the AG. That alone should tell you where his motivation was and why he abandoned his duty to investigate and come to a conclusion.

But that's okay. His boss...Barr...came to the proper conclusion. That the evidence does not rise to obstruction of justice.

Mueller's nonsense justification is just that...nonsense.

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So what happened to your first post on the subject, that Barr took his cue from Mueller?
You don't care about facts, you'll take whatever is said and contrive a way to wring a Trump positive out of it. That bullcrap about Mueller deciding to work for Congress, for example. Pure fabrication. Had he been working for Congress his report would have looked way different. One reason he didn't bring obstruction charges to the table was he said that was in Congress's mandate, not his.

Democrats = Delusional, desperate, grasping at straws

Grand Mal said:

So what happened to your first post on the subject, that Barr took his cue from Mueller?
You don't care about facts, you'll take whatever is said and contrive a way to wring a Trump positive out of it. That bullcrap about Mueller deciding to work for Congress, for example. Pure fabrication. Had he been working for Congress his report would have looked way different. One reason he didn't bring obstruction charges to the table was he said that was in Congress's mandate, not his.

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I didn't say Barr "took his cue" from Mueller.

I said Mueller concluded that there was no collusion and Mueller declined to come to a conclusion about obstruction. Barr concluded the obstruction by ruling there wasn't any.

Furthermore, it wasn't Mueller's job to say anything about Congress...just as it wasn't Mueller's job to "exonerate" Trump. That was all Mueller's decision.

jnug said:

Really...so tell me the standards in the Federal Code for Conspiracy and lets see if they line up with the standard dictionary definition of Collusion:
Definition of collusion
: secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose
acting in collusion with the enemy

So go find the definition for Conspiracy in the FEDERAL CODE and you won't even need to have this discussion any longer because it becomes obvious pretty quickly that just in the plain language in the code and the plain dictionary definition of Collusion the bar would be much higher to prove a Conspiracy than a Collusion IF there was an effort to charge Collusion as a Federal Crime.

Its 923. 18 U.S.C. § 371—CONSPIRACY TO DEFRAUD THE UNITED STATES for the specific case of defrauding the United States. Other crimes offer specific definitions for a Conspiracy to commit the particular crime in question. But 923. 18 U.S.C. § 371 is as close to a broad standard as it gets.

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When I'm in court I'll remember that.

There's not enough difference between collusion and conspiracy for a layman to argue about.

GDViking said:

That was my belief as well until the lawyers got ahold of it and i was proven otherwise...

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I'm not saying they're the same thing. One is against the law. The other isn't codified.

GDViking said:

I think the house should pass a bill outlawing the collusion that the trump campaign and now the trump administration has been involved with.

We can actually get senators and congressmen on record as to their support of America or hostile foreign nations...

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What is collusion? Would that be what Fusion GPS did/ Or would it be the people in the FBI. The CIA. Did Obama collude with Hillary on the Benghazi story? Did Obama collude with Russia when he said he would take care of things after he was re-elected? I agree. Let's make it a hanging offense.

GDViking said:

I think the house should pass a bill outlawing the collusion that the trump campaign and now the trump administration has been involved with.

We can actually get senators and congressmen on record as to their support of America or hostile foreign nations...

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The only collusion was the clinton and the leftist dnc.

You seem confused as usual
2 year investigations should no trump russia connection.
But that would require reading facts again.

MrWonka said:

False. He said he couldn't gather enough evidence to prove collusion, but that was only because of unprecedented Obstruction of Justice by the White house which is itself an impeachable crime.

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Wrong but don't let facts get in your way.
If you can't find evidence then guess what?
Your supposed to be a lawyer.

So this should be easy.

If you can't find the evidence to support your case what happens to your case?

MrWonka said:

Not really sure what you're talking about here. The crime was conspiracy to commit a crime which when done with a foreign government - particularly one like Russia - amounts to Treason.

The is issue isn't that what Trump did wasn't illegal it was that he committed several other felonies to cover up evidence of his crime.

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Actually it doesn't amount to treason.
And Mueller found him innocent of that.
You should try reading Mueller conclusions.

He found no evidence or lack of evidence.

I honestly do not think you are a lawyer.

GDViking said:

Wow you don't even pretend to be truthful anymore do you?

Russian/trump disinformation...

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No that proved to be the steele report.
You have no clue what you are talking about.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

All that's needed is a thoughtful and careful rethink of "criminal conspiracy" legislation.
After all, it's not a stretch to include the WORD "collusion" in with "conspiracy", is it??
They pretty much are synonyms.

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Collusion is a crime in anti-trust cases.
Conspiracy is a separate crime opposite of collusion as it has its own definition.

less right said:

When I'm in court I'll remember that.

There's not enough difference between collusion and conspiracy for a layman to argue about.

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And of course lawyers, judges, law makers, government investigators are not lay people.

If you want a good example of the exercise that would be involved in establishing a standard for Collusion in the Code, take a look at Mueller's definition for Coordination. Coordination does not exist in the Federal Code just as Collusion does not exist there. Now I happen to think it was an idiot move, slimy in fact for Rosenstein to task Mueller to flesh out Coordination when he could have as easily demanded that Mueller flesh out Collusion. It would have required the same work from Mueller.

As an aside, I came out of this whole Mueller Special Counsel thing with little to no respect for Rosenstein. He got played by Trump and then held a grudge for it for one thing. IMO Rosenstein is a smarmy, gutless, vindictive coward who apparently ended up balling his eyes out to Trump in the Oval worried that his GOP cred had been tarnished by his involvement in the Special Counsel investigation and probably for the whole 25th Amendment dust up. Frankly after his performance as Deputy AG, I would be more concerned with my legal standing, not my Party standing if I were him. I rate him about where I rate Comey. Comey should never have made it to FBI Director and Rosenstein was out of his depth as Deputy AG.

Having been tasked by Rosenstein for Coordination, Mueller had to define Coordination for his Investigators or they would not have any standard for their Investigations. Mueller went through the same sort of process one would go through in order to define Collusion separately from Conspiracy but Mueller did it in order to arrive at a working standard for Coordination. One would use that same process if one wanted to establish standards in the Federal Code for Collusion.

If you look carefully at Conspiracy in the Federal Code and then look at Mueller's standard for Coordination it is plainly clear that Mueller stripped out some of the standards for Conspiracy to arrive at a working standard for Coordination. In other words he established that lower hurdle to go over I discussed in the earlier post for a Coordination by looking at the standards for establishing a Conspiracy. Understanding Language as any Lawyer must, he stripped out what logically separated a Conspiracy from a Coordination in terms that would be meaningful to an Investigator.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

All that's needed is a thoughtful and careful rethink of "criminal conspiracy" legislation.
After all, it's not a stretch to include the WORD "collusion" in with "conspiracy", is it??
They pretty much are synonyms.

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My point exactly...

GDViking said:

My point exactly...

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Ludin says that "collusion" and "conspiracy" are somewhat opposite, which made me chuckle.
Maybe he'll clarify...but I kinda think calling them "opposite" is a wee bit of a stretch....just a wee bit