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The desire to 'Own the Libs.'

Ikari said:
You're not going to repair the rifts in the Republic by adding to the rifts in the Republic. It's not possible. Engaging in the arsonist asshole tactics just makes your side arsonist assholes.

It's like climate change. I don't think many people understand the ramifications of it, and on some day-to-day basis it's hard to see the effect. It's a long trend, aggregate effect that is hard to see in the trenches. But one of the results of climate change is that the extremes get more...extreme. Summers get hotter, winters get colder, storms get worse and more frequent. We end up seeing more damage and more deaths than we would have otherwise. And that's what this "fight them in the trenches" mentality gets us. It makes the extremes on both sides worse. That doesn't unify the Republic, it exacerbates the rifts that already exist.

You're worried about the weather, you're completely disregarding the climate.

And that is why this mentality will ultimately led us to the same place. It's not fighting for the People, it's not fighting for the Republic, it's fighting to "be right", to "stick it to" the the other side and in the end, left or right, it's not going to matter who wins because we'll all be in cages regardless.

You may not "want" your Holy War, but you do seem very eager to fight in and proliferate it.
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In order for a United Republic, there has to be a consensus of political, cultural, and social values that are recognized by everyone regardless of one’s individual ideological political views. That consensus exists as long as both sides recognize the legitimacy of their opponents. What has happened is that republicans have been acting like Democrats are not legitimate and have no right to exercise political power.

Speaking of this “holy war” as you disdainfully call it, have you considered the possibility of there being no other choice but fighting? Choosing not to fight and finding common ground only work if both sides have shared values that are recognized and agreed upon. But trying to compromise one’s own principles and values to find common ground with someone with values that are hostile toward what you hold dear? That is compromising the values that define your character, and without those values then a person is left with nothing.
 
Winston said:
"socialists" who believe in human rights for all people.
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No one thinks that believing in human rights for all people is "socialism."
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Power vacuums are extremely messy things.
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And it's a roll of the dice, you don't know what you'll get. I think the Founders got lucky, despite the early difficulties, in being able to establish the Republic as it was established. It took real fortitude, determination, and grit to force their way through to the other side. But generally speaking, that may not be what you get. And more times than not, an authoritative government is one that ends up taking over.

If left and right fight too much, it's just going to encourage stronger response by the government to "keep the peace". We'll lose the Republic the Founders fought so hard for. I think there are far too many that are short-sighted and won't look at the bigger picture.
 
MrWonka said:
Is there any single thing that makes someone more obviously an insecure Snowflake than the burning desire to Own the Libs? It's basically a political philosophy of revenge against those who are condescending toward you. It's basically just a burning desire to make people suffer for saying mean things about you or calling you an idiot.

I can think of nothing that does a better job of proving you deserve condescension than to see owning the libs as a reason to support a policy or candidate.
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Nothing special about that, plenty of libs desire to own cons.
 
MrWonka said:
You can't bring a knife to a gun fight.

Throughout history Progress has always come in waves. There's never been a time when the half of the country that was wrong just woke up one day and accepted it. A battle of us vs them, generally young vs old is inevitable. Progress happens when the old begin to die off and the young become too strong. They crush the old into submission. It's only when the old are forced to realize their fight is futile and endangering their relationships with their children that they finally give up and you have peace for a time.
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Wow you said a lot here! So ... "progress" is always good, and the past is always wrong and bad. Old people are just stupid and stuck in old ways, for no reason at all. Young people are always smart and guiding us toward a brave new future.

:lol::roll:
 
Ikari said:
And it's a roll of the dice, you don't know what you'll get. I think the Founders got lucky, despite the early difficulties, in being able to establish the Republic as it was established. It took real fortitude, determination, and grit to force their way through to the other side. But generally speaking, that may not be what you get. And more times than not, an authoritative government is one that ends up taking over.

If left and right fight too much, it's just going to encourage stronger response by the government to "keep the peace". We'll lose the Republic the Founders fought so hard for. I think there are far too many that are short-sighted and won't look at the bigger picture.
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Aren’t the values that this country was founded on worth protecting no matter the cost?
 
Obscurity said:
So, your solution is, what, exactly?

Ignore the arsonists with the gas can and the match?

Let them continue to burn the republic?
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Use water to put out the flames. Act intelligently, vote intelligently, engage intelligently. Don't run around grabbing hats or starting fires, but promote a better tomorrow and demonstrate that with actions.

We may have taken a step too far on the precipice of psychohistory and I may get swept away in your violence. But I won't add to it. It's a fool's errand.
 
Good4Nothin said:
Wow you said a lot here! So ... "progress" is always good, and the past is always wrong and bad. Old people are just stupid and stuck in old ways, for no reason at all. Young people are always smart and guiding us toward a brave new future.

:lol::roll:
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*gingerly takes his foot off of Good4Nothin's lawn
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
In order for a United Republic, there has to be a consensus of political, cultural, and social values that are recognized by everyone regardless of one’s individual ideological political views. That consensus exists as long as both sides recognize the legitimacy of their opponents. What has happened is that republicans have been acting like Democrats are not legitimate and have no right to exercise political power.

Speaking of this “holy war” as you disdainfully call it, have you considered the possibility of there being no other choice but fighting? Choosing not to fight and finding common ground only work if both sides have shared values that are recognized and agreed upon. But trying to compromise one’s own principles and values to find common ground with someone with values that are hostile toward what you hold dear? That is compromising the values that define your character, and without those values then a person is left with nothing.
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That is some major rank bias on your part if you think it’s only the right acting like dems are not legitimate, and thst the reverse isn’t happening just as much.
 
Ikari said:
Yeah, the problem is that there's a high probability of burning down the Republic by doing so.
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Were it ever thus, my friend.
Look at the patterns and then look at History.
There's your answer, because evolutionary timescales are measured in millions, not decades, and we have NOT "evolved" significantly since we harnessed fire and agriculture.
We just have nicer baubles, that's all.

And some evolutionary paths wind up as dead ends and failed experiments, and when viewed through such a timeline, our attempt at mental, civil and societal evolution along a path of republic, law, constitution and democracy amounts to less than a nanosecond, a fluke, a miracle, a one in a million shot.

Authoritarianism is older than the written word itself.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Aren’t the values that this country was founded on worth protecting no matter the cost?
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They are, but you don't "protect" those values by undermining them.

The Right has gone too far, it's clear to see. They got caught up in the "own the libs" revenge match that they won't even critique their own President who has been acting at the very best, incredibly naively and dangerously (and most likely is just criminally). I don't think that engaging in the same sorts of behavior gets us anywhere.

I think that the Dems have a big job. I do think that if Trump can be voted out in 2020, we can start deescalating this a bit. Trump does a lot to stir the pot, to cause the drama, to exacerbate these rifts. But if we want tomorrow to be better, we must behave better today.
 
Ikari said:
Use water to put out the flames. Act intelligently, vote intelligently, engage intelligently. Don't run around grabbing hats or starting fires, but promote a better tomorrow and demonstrate that with actions.

We may have taken a step too far on the precipice of psychohistory and I may get swept away in your violence. But I won't add to it. It's a fool's errand.
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So, in your estimation, we win this "war" without fighting it, simply by voting, and speaking intelligently, despite the fact the opposition is full of people convinced of completely insane conspiracy theories?

Do you think you stop a toxic partisan insurgency using harsh language?
 
Simpletruther said:
That is some major rank bias on your part if you think it’s only the right acting like dems are not legitimate, and thst the reverse isn’t happening just as much.
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It's a REACTION to literal decades of conditioning on behalf of right wing pundits. Go look at the publishings. I don't hear any of the left commentators I listen to saying republicans aren't valid americans, nor do they compare them to baby murderers, and all the other sordid trash you hear spewing from the anus of right wing media these days (and the past 25+ years, for that matter.)
 
Ikari said:
They are, but you don't "protect" those values by undermining them.

The Right has gone too far, it's clear to see. They got caught up in the "own the libs" revenge match that they won't even critique their own President who has been acting at the very best, incredibly naively and dangerously (and most likely is just criminally). I don't think that engaging in the same sorts of behavior gets us anywhere.

I think that the Dems have a big job. I do think that if Trump can be voted out in 2020, we can start deescalating this a bit. Trump does a lot to stir the pot, to cause the drama, to exacerbate these rifts. But if we want tomorrow to be better, we must behave better today.
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On the portion of Trump's election in 2020 we disagree. I think the voters have been conditioned by him to think of ANY thing that gets him out of office is malfeasance on behalf of the democrat deep state.

And I really do mean that I believe they believe that to be true.
 
Ikari said:
They are, but you don't "protect" those values by undermining them.

The Right has gone too far, it's clear to see. They got caught up in the "own the libs" revenge match that they won't even critique their own President who has been acting at the very best, incredibly naively and dangerously (and most likely is just criminally). I don't think that engaging in the same sorts of behavior gets us anywhere.

I think that the Dems have a big job. I do think that if Trump can be voted out in 2020, we can start deescalating this a bit. Trump does a lot to stir the pot, to cause the drama, to exacerbate these rifts. But if we want tomorrow to be better, we must behave better today.
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Simple question: what does this country stand for? What are the values embodied by the U.s constitution?
 
Obscurity said:
So, in your estimation, we win this "war" without fighting it, simply by voting, and speaking intelligently, despite the fact the opposition is full of people convinced of completely insane conspiracy theories?

Do you think you stop a toxic partisan insurgency using harsh language?
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We just may have to Gandhi this one, yes.

I think you can stop toxic partisanship through aggregate education and intelligence. It's not an easy road for sure, and it's an aggregate effect so you have to build it up. It can be done, it just takes more work that bringing a gun to a gun fight.
 
Ikari said:
OK Boomer.

lol

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm Gen-X, we just like to watch it all burn.

lol
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Karen is Generation-X.

KarenJeffCheyenne2016cc.jpg

(Yes, I am a cradle robber.) :lol:
I've never seen her entertain such notions, nor have I ever observed it in any of her friends and peers.
The closest I've ever observed that is with some of our kids friends, and they are all Millennials.
 
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Checkerboard Strangler said:
Karen is Generation-X.

View attachment 67269368

(Yes, I am a cradle robber.) :lol:
I've never seen her entertain such notions, nor have I ever observed it in any of her friends and peers.
The closest I've ever observed that is with some of our kids friends, and they are all Millennials.
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How did your hat not fall off?
 
Obscurity said:
On the portion of Trump's election in 2020 we disagree. I think the voters have been conditioned by him to think of ANY thing that gets him out of office is malfeasance on behalf of the democrat deep state.

And I really do mean that I believe they believe that to be true.
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I think that it's just an RC circuit. Remove the voltage, and it will start to discharge.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Were it ever thus, my friend.
Look at the patterns and then look at History.
There's your answer, because evolutionary timescales are measured in millions, not decades, and we have NOT "evolved" significantly since we harnessed fire and agriculture.
We just have nicer baubles, that's all.

And some evolutionary paths wind up as dead ends and failed experiments, and when viewed through such a timeline, our attempt at mental, civil and societal evolution along a path of republic, law, constitution and democracy amounts to less than a nanosecond, a fluke, a miracle, a one in a million shot.

Authoritarianism is older than the written word itself.
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Correct. We have had modern society for a literal eyeblink of human history. And the modern way of living goes against everything our heritage, natural memory, was evolved to do.
 
Obscurity said:
Correct. We have had modern society for a literal eyeblink of human history. And the modern way of living goes against everything our heritage, natural memory, was evolved to do.
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That is part of the problem. A lot of modern propaganda has figured out how to tap into the monkey brain and promote things like aggression and tribalism.
 
Ikari said:
We just may have to Gandhi this one, yes.

I think you can stop toxic partisanship through aggregate education and intelligence. It's not an easy road for sure, and it's an aggregate effect so you have to build it up. It can be done, it just takes more work that bringing a gun to a gun fight.
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Gandhi lived by his principles.

Isn’t the principles of the constitutional worth defending?
 
Ikari said:
I think that it's just an RC circuit. Remove the voltage, and it will start to discharge.
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So the past 30 years of conditioning by their pundits was all for Trump, and the second he leaves, the "fever" will break?

That it?
 
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