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The desire to 'Own the Libs.'

tacomancer said:
You can't, but given that they have no ability to self reflect, fighting them is useless too. You just gotta wait them out and curb their worst excesses in the process.
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To me that is unacceptable. I can't sit idly by while an arsonist, cannibal party consumes washington, drenches us in hatred, submerges us in the wont of insane theocrats, and have sat a monarchist theocrat in the position of VP and AG.

These people will. Not. Stop. You can't curb the worst of their excesses when the worst of their excesses has a president offering foreign countries the opportunity to investigate private american citizens.
 
Obscurity said:
I don't want to push my beliefs on anyone. I simply do not want others being conditioned by a well greased right wing war machine to see me as an enemy to be destroyed.

How long before you realize they feel the same about you as they do me? How long until you wake up and realize these arsonist assholes are not going to stop and this is the new normal?
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So you instead see the other side as the enemy that needs to be destroyed. You said so yourself.

It's frustrating because you somehow think your war is going to end in a different place the the war the right is waging. No, it doesn't end in a different place. It ends in the same place. If you fall to the lowest common denominator then you too become the arsonist assholes and you're both taking us to the same place. Your side will hate me as much as the right side will hate me. I've already seen this happening by some of the true believers even here.

I don't know how long it would take you to realize that truth, or if you even can. There are some on the left that cannot understand that. But you're driving us to the same place as the right. End goal is the same, death of the Republic and the rise of a true Fascist State. Lowest common denominator tactics get us there. The more full-retard we go, the faster we end there.

I'm done with it. I may just end up swept away in the current of your angst and hatred, but I'm not going to participate in it. I'm not going to add to it. Whichever side "wins", I'll be ****ed, so I might as well just do it my way.

Enjoy your Holy War.
 
Obscurity said:
To me that is unacceptable. I can't sit idly by while an arsonist, cannibal party consumes washington, drenches us in hatred, submerges us in the wont of insane theocrats, and have sat a monarchist theocrat in the position of VP and AG.

These people will. Not. Stop. You can't curb the worst of their excesses when the worst of their excesses has a president offering foreign countries the opportunity to investigate private american citizens.
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What do you propose?

I am unwilling to take the low road.
 
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Ikari said:
So you instead see the other side as the enemy that needs to be destroyed. You said so yourself.

It's frustrating because you somehow think your war is going to end in a different place the the war the right is waging. No, it doesn't end in a different place. It ends in the same place. If you fall to the lowest common denominator then you too become the arsonist assholes and you're both taking us to the same place. Your side will hate me as much as the right side will hate me. I've already seen this happening by some of the true believers even here.

I don't know how long it would take you to realize that truth, or if you even can. There are some on the left that cannot understand that. But you're driving us to the same place as the right. End goal is the same, death of the Republic and the rise of a true Fascist State. Lowest common denominator tactics get us there. The more full-retard we go, the faster we end there.

I'm done with it. I may just end up swept away in the current of your angst and hatred, but I'm not going to participate in it. I'm not going to add to it. Whichever side "wins", I'll be ****ed, so I might as well just do it my way.

Enjoy your Holy War.
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You seem to misunderstand my position in this. I do not want this "holy war." I simply do not want the right wing to view me as someone to destroy any longer, and doing the whole "high road" thing has given us the worst POTUS in history and 30 years of right wing domination of our politics. Unless the left is willing to get sloppy, slap the bully back, and show some spine, the right will keep on pushing.

MY goal is a unified union, with a variety of political opinions, who treat each other with respect and dignity.

Their goal is a crushed left wing, a destroyed and imprisoned sense of liberty, a removal of personal rights for women, a supremacy of the church in private matters, and to many of them, a complete destruction of the democratic party as an entity.

You need to listen to them when they speak. Listen to Hannity. Listen to Limbaugh. Listen to Coulter. You're painting me as one of them; I am a SYMPTOM. They are the disease.
 
tacomancer said:
What do you propose?
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Return the fairness doctrine. Use the courts to finally begin the long overdue use of anti-trust acts to break up media conglomerates, dispose of the major countrywide ownership of small media platforms which has resulted in a quagmire of religious institutions taking over the airwaves across the middle of the country.

Break up big tech, facebook, twitter, etc. This centralized monopoly on power allows the use of algorithms to proliferate the messaging to confirm bias instead of encouraging open and free advertisements.

There are PLENTY of things that CAN and indeed MUST be done. But you cannot bargain with people who LITERALLY see you as a baby killing democrat slave owner!
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Defend the principles of this country and uphold the constitutional laws and values that should be universally recognized by everyone?
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And on a practical, action oriented level that means what exactly?
 
tacomancer said:
And on a practical, action oriented level that means what exactly?
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What I said above. Action must be taken to restore normal radio and news information and how it is relayed. Right now, the media is controlled by 4ish entities, all of which own multitudes of smaller companies. This mediapocalypse resulted in a decimation of small networks around the country, especially in rural states where media was already struggling.

These small networks have been replaced by the likes of Salem Media, a far right christian revanchist network of media, publishing and news outlets across every state and primarily consumed across the midwest and south. This has had the effect of proliferating the same anti-democrat/left/lib nonsense as pushed by the likes of Coulter, Limbaugh, Kirk and other right wing ideologues. The indoctrination is very, very real, and it doesn't "not exist."

This is a form of fighting back that actually works, but again, the dems don't have a spine. They're weak, mewling demagogues. This is why they are so spurned by their own base.
 
Obscurity said:
Return the fairness doctrine. Use the courts to finally begin the long overdue use of anti-trust acts to break up media conglomerates, dispose of the major countrywide ownership of small media platforms which has resulted in a quagmire of religious institutions taking over the airwaves across the middle of the country.

Break up big tech, facebook, twitter, etc. This centralized monopoly on power allows the use of algorithms to proliferate the messaging to confirm bias instead of encouraging open and free advertisements.

There are PLENTY of things that CAN and indeed MUST be done. But you cannot bargain with people who LITERALLY see you as a baby killing democrat slave owner!
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I am not sure the fairness doctrine would work as that was just over the air broadcasts, which is increasingly a smaller % of the information share: This is what I propose instead, which is a style of new content filtering/aggregation that would put the hands in the user and (I believe) work with the first amendment.

I do (strongly) agree with breaking up the tech monopolies though.
 
Obscurity said:
You seem to misunderstand my position in this. I do not want this "holy war." I simply do not want the right wing to view me as someone to destroy any longer, and doing the whole "high road" thing has given us the worst POTUS in history and 30 years of right wing domination of our politics. Unless the left is willing to get sloppy, slap the bully back, and show some spine, the right will keep on pushing.

MY goal is a unified union, with a variety of political opinions, who treat each other with respect and dignity.

Their goal is a crushed left wing, a destroyed and imprisoned sense of liberty, a removal of personal rights for women, a supremacy of the church in private matters, and to many of them, a complete destruction of the democratic party as an entity.

You need to listen to them when they speak. Listen to Hannity. Listen to Limbaugh. Listen to Coulter. You're painting me as one of them; I am a SYMPTOM. They are the disease.
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You're not going to repair the rifts in the Republic by adding to the rifts in the Republic. It's not possible. Engaging in the arsonist asshole tactics just makes your side arsonist assholes.

It's like climate change. I don't think many people understand the ramifications of it, and on some day-to-day basis it's hard to see the effect. It's a long trend, aggregate effect that is hard to see in the trenches. But one of the results of climate change is that the extremes get more...extreme. Summers get hotter, winters get colder, storms get worse and more frequent. We end up seeing more damage and more deaths than we would have otherwise. And that's what this "fight them in the trenches" mentality gets us. It makes the extremes on both sides worse. That doesn't unify the Republic, it exacerbates the rifts that already exist.

You're worried about the weather, you're completely disregarding the climate.

And that is why this mentality will ultimately led us to the same place. It's not fighting for the People, it's not fighting for the Republic, it's fighting to "be right", to "stick it to" the the other side and in the end, left or right, it's not going to matter who wins because we'll all be in cages regardless.

You may not "want" your Holy War, but you do seem very eager to fight in and proliferate it.
 
MrWonka said:
Is there any single thing that makes someone more obviously an insecure Snowflake than the burning desire to Own the Libs? It's basically a political philosophy of revenge against those who are condescending toward you. It's basically just a burning desire to make people suffer for saying mean things about you or calling you an idiot.

I can think of nothing that does a better job of proving you deserve condescension than to see owning the libs as a reason to support a policy or candidate.
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I am sure you remember all of us going over this, so I hope you remember my old summation of it, too.
I am convinced that "owning the libs" is pretty much a DRUG ADDICTION.

I know from whence I speak as a "recovering addict" with 25 years sobriety on my books.
I was a world class crackhead during my "lost decade" back in the 1980's/1990's.
I got away with it relatively unscathed for almost ten years, until it all collapsed and fell down around my ankles so to speak.

Watching Trumpsters, I sense an easily recognizable set of clear patterns that look, sound and feel like addiction to hard drugs.
The "drug" Trump sells could go by any number of "cute" names.
I could call it "Trump's Tincture of Libtard Tears", or you can make up your own name for it, but watch what cons are willing to give up in order to get their fix. Watch what happens if you challenge their "dealer".
Watch as they allow their dealer to slap around and rape their "girlfriend".
Watch as they would even sacrifice their wife or kids, best friends, family, home, vocation, even the very last penny of their fortunes and security.
Watch as they even offer up long held personal values, even sacred conservative shibboleths and scriptures.

It's totally the equivalent of a drug addiction.
 
tacomancer said:
I am not sure the fairness doctrine would work as that was just over the air broadcasts, which is increasingly a smaller % of the information share: This is what I propose instead

I do (strongly) agree with breaking up the tech monopolies though.
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I read that thread. As far as facebook is concerned, you're never going to adequately police people there. It's an abomination and, in my opinion, should literally NOT exist. I am against big government action, but facebook is so abusive and insidious I think it is literally detrimental to human kind for it to exist, period. The answer in my opinion is to simply shut it down. You do that by starving it of resources. Undercut and eliminate its ability to merge, undo prior mergers, and force equitable changes to the entirety of its algorithms.

In fact, the very idea a company can profiteer off your labor (labor being search trends, data compilation in general via tracked viewing methods and whatnot) is an abuse. Facebook should be paying a stipend to every single user on a monthly basis, right alongside Amazon and every other big tech company, for profiteering off the labor of it's workforce, the user.
 
Ikari said:
If it's the sole reason for being, then it is rather pathetic indeed. In fact, I think one of the big problems that we are seeing now, why Trump fanatics are so fanatical and steadfast, is because they've put this idea of "owning the libs" ahead of the Republic. I think we see some amount of "own the Cons" attitude developing on the left. It's not quite as all encompassing and rabid as it is on the right, but it's coming. It does not behoove us to push these petty political digs above the health and course of the Republic.
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I would hope and pray that attempts at owning the Cons is nothing more than an attempt at fighting fire with fire.
 
Ikari said:
You're not going to repair the rifts in the Republic by adding to the rifts in the Republic. It's not possible. Engaging in the arsonist asshole tactics just makes your side arsonist assholes.

It's like climate change. I don't think many people understand the ramifications of it, and on some day-to-day basis it's hard to see the effect. It's a long trend, aggregate effect that is hard to see in the trenches. But one of the results of climate change is that the extremes get more...extreme. Summers get hotter, winters get colder, storms get worse and more frequent. We end up seeing more damage and more deaths than we would have otherwise. And that's what this "fight them in the trenches" mentality gets us. It makes the extremes on both sides worse. That doesn't unify the Republic, it exacerbates the rifts that already exist.

You're worried about the weather, you're completely disregarding the climate.

And that is why this mentality will ultimately led us to the same place. It's not fighting for the People, it's not fighting for the Republic, it's fighting to "be right", to "stick it to" the the other side and in the end, left or right, it's not going to matter who wins because we'll all be in cages regardless.

You may not "want" your Holy War, but you do seem very eager to fight in and proliferate it.
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Again, you misrepresent me. I don't want to stick it to them, unless you view returning to normal sticking it to them, in which case, I suppose I do want to stick it to them.

Eager for it? It is to my lament, sir, that we are here and now in this particular paradigm. However, it must be said; proliferation has happened just simply based on the fact the democrats decided to do something, anything, against the dear leader.

It IS fighting for the republic, because they have -literally- become enemies of it. They want to shatter it and in their wake decimate and eviscerate the left wing. They have shifted our national conversation to the point that civil rights gains that took decades of blood, tears, and loss of life, are now "talking points" that can result in their reversal.

This is an existential fight. For the soul of this republic. For the vision of our founders.

And I believe those who fired the first shot will continue to win as long as no one is willing to stand up and say enough is ****ing enough.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
I would hope and pray that attempts at owning the Cons is nothing more than an attempt at fighting fire with fire.
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Yeah, the problem is that there's a high probability of burning down the Republic by doing so.
 
MrWonka said:
You can't bring a knife to a gun fight.

Throughout history Progress has always come in waves. There's never been a time when the half of the country that was wrong just woke up one day and accepted it. A battle of us vs them, generally young vs old is inevitable. Progress happens when the old begin to die off and the young become too strong. They crush the old into submission. It's only when the old are forced to realize their fight is futile and endangering their relationships with their children that they finally give up and you have peace for a time.
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Sorry but just chalking it up to "young versus old" is a very lazy assessment.
I'm sixty-two, almost sixty-three.

Sorry, but while "Okay Boomer" is cute and amusing, it's wildly inaccurate and it's an overly broad, sweeping and somewhat bigoted generalization.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Sorry but just chalking it up to "young versus old" is a very lazy assessment.
I'm sixty-two, almost sixty-three.

Sorry, but while "Okay Boomer" is cute and amusing, it's wildly inaccurate and it's an overly broad, sweeping and somewhat bigoted generalization.
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OK Boomer.

lol

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm Gen-X, we just like to watch it all burn.

lol
 
Obscurity said:
I read that thread. As far as facebook is concerned, you're never going to adequately police people there. It's an abomination and, in my opinion, should literally NOT exist. I am against big government action, but facebook is so abusive and insidious I think it is literally detrimental to human kind for it to exist, period. The answer in my opinion is to simply shut it down. You do that by starving it of resources. Undercut and eliminate its ability to merge, undo prior mergers, and force equitable changes to the entirety of its algorithms.

In fact, the very idea a company can profiteer off your labor (labor being search trends, data compilation in general via tracked viewing methods and whatnot) is an abuse. Facebook should be paying a stipend to every single user on a monthly basis, right alongside Amazon and every other big tech company, for profiteering off the labor of it's workforce, the user.
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I stopped using facebook a few years ago as it was clearly emotionally manipulative and I got tired of people acting stupidly. However, I still see this as a demographics issue. Younger people tend to be a little more jaded about these things and have mental defenses against this kind of manipulation that boomers do not have. The second problem is that this is like the war on drugs, someone is going to do this, so we need better tools.

The one provision I will support is from the EU's GDPR regulation in which this thing must be explicitly opt-in and the provider cannot deny service based on failure of the user to opt-in.
 
Ikari said:
OK Boomer.

lol

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm Gen-X, we just like to watch it all burn.

lol
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I am also Gen-X, and I am a buddhist, and believe in non-violence. So please do remember this when you tell me I am wanting for a holy war. ;)
 
Obscurity said:
I am also Gen-X, and I am a buddhist, and believe in non-violence. So please do remember this when you tell me I am wanting for a holy war. ;)
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Buddhists can be just as holy as anyone else. And the term Holy War is more to describe a war of attrition fought on ideological grounds.

Which is what we're going to get as the left rises to the "own the Cons" standard that the right uses. I'm not interested in your Holy War, I'm interested in making the Republic better and of restoring reason and logic. Probably not something that will be accomplished in my lifetime, but perhaps we can at least get the slope right if we don't burn it all to the ground first.
 
Ikari said:
It might be. I certainly think that while Trump remains in office, stirring the pot, it will be true. I think that if we get rid of him, there's a chance that folk may start to calm down.

The problem is this tit-or-tat nonsense and people excusing the left from behaving in the same manner. Deescalation may be hard, it may take time, it may take effort. But if we just shrug our shoulders and say "well the other side started it" and promote escalation instead, things will only get worse.

I agree, it's not clear if and how we get folk to calm down, but I don't think getting riled up is going to do anything positive. If anything, it will leave us in an even worse state. If the left ends up truly as rabid as the right, we may be well and fully ****ed. "Can't bring a knife to a gun fight", but you're only going to be left with a pile or rubble in the aftermath of your shootout. And it may not be your side that ends up winning that shootout. Well and truly ****ed if this is the road we go down.
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Nobody "wins" one of these things once it reaches this late stage.
Believing that revolution means a victory is a fool's errand, and the Founders discovered that, because the first ten years of our republic bore witness to mass bankruptcies and civil forfeitures, and arrests and imprisonments. Many of the Founders themselves woke up penniless and destitute unless they had made serious and EARLY efforts to secure their wealth abroad in friendly locales.

Still, nobody actually wins. Power vacuums are extremely messy things.
 
Ikari said:
Buddhists can be just as holy as anyone else. And the term Holy War is more to describe a war of attrition fought on ideological grounds.

Which is what we're going to get as the left rises to the "own the Cons" standard that the right uses. I'm not interested in your Holy War, I'm interested in making the Republic better and of restoring reason and logic. Probably not something that will be accomplished in my lifetime, but perhaps we can at least get the slope right if we don't burn it all to the ground first.
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So, your solution is, what, exactly?

Ignore the arsonists with the gas can and the match?

Let them continue to burn the republic?
 
Ikari said:
So you instead see the other side as the enemy that needs to be destroyed. You said so yourself.

It's frustrating because you somehow think your war is going to end in a different place the the war the right is waging. No, it doesn't end in a different place. It ends in the same place. If you fall to the lowest common denominator then you too become the arsonist assholes and you're both taking us to the same place. Your side will hate me as much as the right side will hate me. I've already seen this happening by some of the true believers even here.

I don't know how long it would take you to realize that truth, or if you even can. There are some on the left that cannot understand that. But you're driving us to the same place as the right. End goal is the same, death of the Republic and the rise of a true Fascist State. Lowest common denominator tactics get us there. The more full-retard we go, the faster we end there.

I'm done with it. I may just end up swept away in the current of your angst and hatred, but I'm not going to participate in it. I'm not going to add to it. Whichever side "wins", I'll be ****ed, so I might as well just do it my way.

Enjoy your Holy War.
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I honestly do not think Obscurity is happy about a Holy War.
Ikari, "we didn't start the fire", but know this: Fire is coming.

And how we finally manage to douse the flames is pretty much largely up to history and fate at this point.
 
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