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Thread: Unpacking a phrase.

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    Unpacking a phrase.

    In comments about the proceedings against President of the United States of America Donald Trump in the US House of Representatives, the phrase 'overturn the will of the American people' comes up again and again.

    The process of impeachment, when used against a president [Ed.: It can be used against other specific government officials.] can result in the president being removed from office. In the case of any president, it is not the will of the American people that is set aside, but rather that of the Electoral College, which elected both the president and the vice president.*

    For the present Oval Office occupant, the will of the American voters [Ed.: Only a sub-set of the American people,] was that someone else occupy that position. Impeachment would not place that person in the president's seat. Instead, the vice president would take the helm. The vice president is, in all probability, the sitting president's personal choice.

    The actual will of the American people at the time of the election is not, and will not be known. Only those who voted made their decision known. Even there, the contorted mechanism of the Electoral College** produced a different outcome.

    And that's how it goes in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

    * Contrary to the comments of some extremists, we as a nation do abide by the Constitution from time to time. Election time's one of those instances.

    ** A vote cast in certain states will have an effective 'weight' of more than three votes cast in some of the others. Wyoming and California form a paired example.
    Last edited by Torus34; 12-04-19 at 08:01 AM.
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    Re: Unpacking a phrase.

    You are splitting hairs over what is ultimately a political argument between House Republicans and Democrats.

    It does not really matter to that debate they are having during this Impeachment process that Trump was elected by the Electoral College vote but lost the so called "popular vote." It has happened that way a few times in US history and that does not necessarily mean the "will of the people" was discarded either. We can have the umpteenth thread on the nature of the Electoral College against larger polls of arguably left leaning voters in states like California and New York but even that does not change the rhetoric coming from the hill these days.

    The Constitutional aspect of this is noted but that does not mean Republicans will remove from all their opening statements that Democrats are trying to overthrow the "will of the people."

    Because the Impeachment process is inherently so divisive it stands to reason, no matter if we agree with the position or not, that rhetoric keeps those battle lines drawn in concrete.

    To be brutally honest it does not even matter if the full House vote returns Articles of Impeachment as it is very unlikely the Senate will return a vote to remove Trump from office, no matter what evidence is really offered.

    This *is all* a political maneuver with 2020 on the line, where we will see again what key states do that Trump won with in 2016. No one is really expecting California, or New York, or Texas, or all the typical states that go a political direction to all of a sudden flip. All eyes will be on key states that Obama won easily and twice, yet Trump took from Hillary in 2016.

    "Will of the people" or Electoral College, you guys can debate that all you want, but the rhetoric will be alive and well all throughout next year.
    "Democracy without respect for individual rights sucks. It's just ganging up against the weird kid, and I'm always the weird kid." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: Unpacking a phrase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torus34 View Post
    In comments about the proceedings against President of the United States of America Donald Trump in the US House of Representatives, the phrase 'overturn the will of the American people' comes up again and again.

    The process of impeachment, when used against a president [Ed.: It can be used against other specific government officials.] can result in the president being removed from office. In the case of any president, it is not the will of the American people that is set aside, but rather that of the Electoral College, which elected both the president and the vice president.*

    For the present Oval Office occupant, the will of the American voters [Ed.: Only a sub-set of the American people,] was that someone else occupy that position. Impeachment would not place that person in the president's seat. Instead, the vice president would take the helm. The vice president is, in all probability, the sitting president's personal choice.

    The actual will of the American people at the time of the election is not, and will not be known. Only those who voted made their decision known. Even there, the contorted mechanism of the Electoral College** produced a different outcome.

    And that's how it goes in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

    * Contrary to the comments of some extremists, we as a nation do abide by the Constitution from time to time. Election time's one of those instances.

    ** A vote cast in certain states will have an effective 'weight' of more than three votes cast in some of the others. Wyoming and California form a paired example.
    Your so called contorted mechanism of the Electoral College produced the will of the people unless you have an elector who voted against the will of the people. Do you have an elector who voted for Trump that was going against the peoples vote for Clinton? Nope.

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    Re: Unpacking a phrase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Condor060 View Post
    Your so called contorted mechanism of the Electoral College produced the will of the people unless you have an elector who voted against the will of the people. Do you have an elector who voted for Trump that was going against the peoples vote for Clinton? Nope.
    How, pray tell can we speak of the electors of a 'winner-takes-all' state as speaking for the will of the people when the input of up to 49.9% of the voters are ignored?

    And why is it acceptable that the will of some people is more than three times as important as the will of some other people?

    Regards.
    "And gladly wolde he lerne and gladly teche." Chaucer, the Canterbury Tales.

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    Re: Unpacking a phrase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torus34 View Post
    How, pray tell can we speak of the electors of a 'winner-takes-all' state as speaking for the will of the people when the input of up to 49.9% of the voters are ignored?

    And why is it acceptable that the will of some people is more than three times as important as the will of some other people?

    Regards.
    Because 50.1% beats 49.9% all day long.

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