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Macron is done playing nice

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ataraxia

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Macron, until now, has been kowtowing to Trump. Knowing Trump's narcissistic tendencies and strong vulnerability to flattery, he laid it on thick- with the big parade when Trump visited France, a lot of handshakes and hugs, and the two of them holding hands and walking around the whitehouse like two schoolchildren who had just become best friends. His hope, it seems, was to contain Trump and minimize the damage, maybe cajole Trump into not overtly continuing to sabotage and undermine NATO, not recklessly pulling out of the Iran Treaty, not pulling out of Syria, condeming Turkey for its invasion of the Syrian Kurds, acknowledging the continuing geopolitical threat Russia poses to Europe, not pulling out of the Paris Accord, etc, etc...

But Trump has continued to recklessly bulldoze through all of those things. It seems NATO means nothing anymore to the US. So now, Macron, it seems, is done with the nonsense. Earlier, he called NATO "brain-dead", and laid the blame on Trump. He joined Angela Merkel in saying that Europe could no longer really count on the US as an ally. Trump was incensed by this, and ironically enough, tried to defend NATO. Funny. But too little, too late. Macron is having none of it. At their joint press conference, he had no qualms about fact-checking Trump in real time as he spoke. It seems Trump thought he was on a Fox News interview again. It turns out facts and the truth actually do matter in these meetings.

And now at the NATO meeting, he is so radioactive that even the British politicians who want to be seen with him or have a picture with him, even his former buddy Boris Johnson. The relationships with our former allies are completely in tatters. America First really has become America alone.

Trump, in inheriting his father's fortune and being used to playing the big boss his whole life, has been used to being a bully and shoving people around and having them just have to take it. I think he is a little surprised now when people like Macron, or the congress, push back. He's not used to this. Oh well, we all learn- sometimes on the job.

But I wonder if the damage to our international reputation at this point is irreparable. With George W Bush, it took about 8 years to dig out from under the mess. But it was not completely hopeless. The US is no longer the country with the character, integrity, and vision to be the country everyone looks up to, the country which, even if by lip-service, has respect for the rule of law and pushes for human rights and global prosperity, stability, and peace. It's just another player in a petty, cynical, transactional vision of geopolitics. This time, I am afraid, the damage may be irreversible and fatal.
 
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ataraxia said:
Macron, until now, has been kowtowing to Trump. Knowing Trump's narcissistic tendencies and strong vulnerability to flattery, he laid it on thick- with the big parade when Trump visited France, a lot of handshakes and hugs, and the two of them holding hands and walking around the whitehouse like two schoolchildren who had just become best friends. His hope, it seems, was to contain Trump and minimize the damage, maybe cajole Trump into not overtly continuing to sabotage and undermine NATO, not recklessly pulling out of the Iran Treaty, not pulling out of Syria, condeming Turkey for its invasion of the Syrian Kurds, acknowledging the continuing geopolitical threat Russia poses to Europe, not pulling out of the Paris Accord, etc, etc...

But Trump has continued to recklessly bulldoze through all of those things. It seems NATO means nothing anymore to the US. So now, Macron, it seems, is done with the nonsense. Earlier, he called NATO "brain-dead", and laid the blame on Trump. He joined Angela Merkel in saying that Europe could no longer really count on the US as an ally. Trump was incensed by this, and ironically enough, tried to defend NATO. Funny. But too little, too late. Macron is having none of it. At their joint press conference, he had no qualms about fact-checking Trump in real time as he spoke. It seems Trump thought he was on a Fox News interview again. It turns out facts and the truth actually do matter in these meetings.

And now at the NATO meeting, he is so radioactive that even the British politicians who want to be seen with him or have a picture with him, even his former buddy Boris Johnson. The relationships with our former allies are completely in tatters. America First really has become America alone.

Trump, in inheriting his father's fortune and being used to playing the big boss his whole life, has been used to being a bully and shoving people around and having them just have to take it. I think he is a little surprised now when people like Macron, or the congress, push back. He's not used to this. Oh well, we all learn- sometimes on the job.

But I wonder if the damage to our international reputation at this point is irreparable. With George W Bush, it took about 8 years to dig out from under the mess. But it was not completely hopeless. The US is no longer the country with the character, integrity, and vision to be the country everyone looks up to, the country which, even if by lip-service, has respect for the rule of law and pushes for human rights and global prosperity, stability, and peace. It's just another player in a petty, cynical, transactional vision of geopolitics. This time, I am afraid, the damage may be irreversible and fatal.
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Lets remember that France left NATO for decades. Only rejoined AFTER the USSR was dismantled.
 
Trump said some unkind things about Macron, but they were well-deserved.

Macron characterized NATO as being "brain-dead". Trump called the remark insulting and a “very, very nasty statement”.

“Nato serves a great purpose. I think that’s very insulting.” said Trump.

"You just can’t go around making statements like that about Nato. It is very disrespectful. I’m looking at him [Macron] and I’m saying that he needs protection more than anybody, and I see him breaking off [from Nato]. So I’m a little surprised at that.”

It's unfortunate that Trump had to put down the French president like this, but he really didn't have any other choice.
 
ataraxia said:
Macron, until now, has been kowtowing to Trump. Knowing Trump's narcissistic tendencies and strong vulnerability to flattery, he laid it on thick- with the big parade when Trump visited France, a lot of handshakes and hugs, and the two of them holding hands and walking around the whitehouse like two schoolchildren who had just become best friends. His hope, it seems, was to contain Trump and minimize the damage, maybe cajole Trump into not overtly continuing to sabotage and undermine NATO, not recklessly pulling out of the Iran Treaty, not pulling out of Syria, condeming Turkey for its invasion of the Syrian Kurds, acknowledging the continuing geopolitical threat Russia poses to Europe, not pulling out of the Paris Accord, etc, etc...

But Trump has continued to recklessly bulldoze through all of those things. It seems NATO means nothing anymore to the US. So now, Macron, it seems, is done with the nonsense. Earlier, he called NATO "brain-dead", and laid the blame on Trump. He joined Angela Merkel in saying that Europe could no longer really count on the US as an ally. Trump was incensed by this, and ironically enough, tried to defend NATO. Funny. But too little, too late. Macron is having none of it. At their joint press conference, he had no qualms about fact-checking Trump in real time as he spoke. It seems Trump thought he was on a Fox News interview again. It turns out facts and the truth actually do matter in these meetings.

And now at the NATO meeting, he is so radioactive that even the British politicians who want to be seen with him or have a picture with him, even his former buddy Boris Johnson. The relationships with our former allies are completely in tatters. America First really has become America alone.

Trump, in inheriting his father's fortune and being used to playing the big boss his whole life, has been used to being a bully and shoving people around and having them just have to take it. I think he is a little surprised now when people like Macron, or the congress, push back. He's not used to this. Oh well, we all learn- sometimes on the job.

But I wonder if the damage to our international reputation at this point is irreparable. With George W Bush, it took about 8 years to dig out from under the mess. But it was not completely hopeless. The US is no longer the country with the character, integrity, and vision to be the country everyone looks up to, the country which, even if by lip-service, has respect for the rule of law and pushes for human rights and global prosperity, stability, and peace. It's just another player in a petty, cynical, transactional vision of geopolitics. This time, I am afraid, the damage may be irreversible and fatal.
Click to expand...

The damage can be undone if only Trump can be defeated in the next election and a centrist and statesman placed in the White House.
 
SkyChief said:
Trump said some unkind things about Macron, but they were well-deserved.

Macron characterized NATO as being "brain-dead". Trump called the remark insulting and a “very, very nasty statement”.

“Nato serves a great purpose. I think that’s very insulting.” said Trump.

"You just can’t go around making statements like that about Nato. It is very disrespectful. I’m looking at him [Macron] and I’m saying that he needs protection more than anybody, and I see him breaking off [from Nato]. So I’m a little surprised at that.”

It's unfortunate that Trump had to put down the French president like this, but he really didn't have any other choice.
Click to expand...

Either "Nato serves a great purpose. I think that’s very insulting. You just can’t go around making statements like that about Nato. It is very disrespectful", or, as Trump said in his campaign, it's "obsolete" and it's OK for the US to threaten to pull out of it. Trump has to choose which it is. With his rhetoric and behavior, he started the rude and insulting behavior and made clear which it is for him. And it has been VERY insulting and rude. What did he expect after that? For them to come running up and kissing his behind?

I think Trump thought he could threaten, insult, berate, and bully our NATO allies and they would just roll over and just take it, and be falling over themselves to try to please and flatter him. Now that Macron is basically telling him to make sure the door doesn't hit him in the a$$ on his way out, all of a sudden he is thinking "it's very insulting"? LOL.
 
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TRump is making the world realize they don't need us. Probably never going to get back the chinese market for food as others stepped in to fill the void because of the stupid tariffs. The US is declining and trump is pressing on the accelerator. The dumb right cheering as the ship sinks. This is going to have ramification long after Trump is gone.

Just as Putin wanted. He's even said as much. Complete moron so called "Real Mericans" are bringing this country down and they stupidly continue to blame everybody else
 
SkyChief said:
Trump said some unkind things about Macron, but they were well-deserved.

Macron characterized NATO as being "brain-dead". Trump called the remark insulting and a “very, very nasty statement”.

“Nato serves a great purpose. I think that’s very insulting.” said Trump.

"You just can’t go around making statements like that about Nato. It is very disrespectful. I’m looking at him [Macron] and I’m saying that he needs protection more than anybody, and I see him breaking off [from Nato]. So I’m a little surprised at that.”

It's unfortunate that Trump had to put down the French president like this, but he really didn't have any other choice.
Click to expand...

Because that's just how Trump rolls. Any opposition to him or what he has done, and he just has to be insulting. He knows no other way.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Because that's just how Trump rolls. Any opposition to him or what he has done, and he just has to be insulting. He knows no other way.
Click to expand...

And what's funny is that he acts all surprised when people push back now. After all, back when he was the big real estate boss in Manhattan, he could push around his employees and they all had to take it. I think he is a little surprised that it's not like that as president now when people push back- The Europeans, the Chinese, the Iranians, congress, etc.... I suspect he saw all these as his new employees. How dare they talk back to the boss like that, right?

Well, I guess that's what happens when you put a businessman to do a politician's job.
 
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ataraxia said:
Either "Nato serves a great purpose. I think that’s very insulting. You just can’t go around making statements like that about Nato. It is very disrespectful", or, as Trump said in his campaign, it's "obsolete" and it's OK for the US to threaten to pull out of it. Trump has to choose which it is. With his rhetoric and behavior, he started the rude and insulting behavior and made clear which it is for him. And it has been VERY insulting and rude. What did he expect after that? For them to come running up and kissing his behind?

I think Trump thought he could threaten, insult, berate, and bully our NATO allies and they would just roll over and just take it, and be falling over themselves to try to please and flatter him. Now that Macron is basically telling him to make sure the door doesn't hit him in the a$$ on his way out, all of a sudden he is thinking "it's very insulting"? LOL.
Click to expand...

I agree that Trump can't have it both ways. He either thinks NATO is obsolete or useful. In this case he was attempting to position himself, as he usually does, on the "right" side of whatever the moment dictates and in his mind getting an upper hand. It's all a game to him - even his supporters love that he "plays three dimensional chess". Macron is also a businessman and puts thought into what he says and does, for better or for worse (I like him in some areas and not in others). His brain dead comment was simply stating the current NATO situation - that much time has been wasted focusing on the US's contribution, creating a block or a "brain dead" state. He was not saying NATO is useless as Trump has in the past.

I disagree that Macron ever kowtowed to Trump. Macron knows what he is doing and how to deal with a Trump-like personality. He walked the line very well in my opinion. He is not a push over though and I appreciate that.
 
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ProgressPlease said:
I disagree that Macron ever kowtowed to Trump. Macron knows what he is doing and how to deal with a Trump-like personality. He walked the line very well in my opinion. He is not a push over though and I appreciate that.
Click to expand...

I agree. Macron has handled all this quite well, I must say. "Kowtow" may not have been an accurate word to use on my part. I probably should have said something like "try to flatter" or "accommodate".
 
Macron, if he was done with it, would have simply called Trump a sell out, a whore to the evangelical elite in america, a braindead manchurian at worst.

Then again, clearly, Macron has yet to have "had it."
 
Dittohead not! said:
The damage can be undone if only Trump can be defeated in the next election and a centrist and statesman placed in the White House.
Click to expand...

We don't need a 'centrist', we need a progressive.
 
Sampson Simpson said:
TRump is making the world realize they don't need us. Probably never going to get back the chinese market for food as others stepped in to fill the void because of the stupid tariffs. The US is declining and trump is pressing on the accelerator. The dumb right cheering as the ship sinks. This is going to have ramification long after Trump is gone.

Just as Putin wanted. He's even said as much. Complete moron so called "Real Mericans" are bringing this country down and they stupidly continue to blame everybody else
Click to expand...

Well said.

That's one of the bigger effects of the trump presidency. The bad news is, the vacuum is largely filled by bad replacements, like authoritarians. The not so bad news is that the US wasn't really acting much as a champion of democracy or values much anyway, but that's what we need. trump is just burning our global leadership capital for nothing, leaving democracy weaker in the world, dangerously.
 
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ataraxia said:
Macron, until now, has been kowtowing to Trump. Knowing Trump's narcissistic tendencies and strong vulnerability to flattery, he laid it on thick- with the big parade when Trump visited France, a lot of handshakes and hugs, and the two of them holding hands and walking around the whitehouse like two schoolchildren who had just become best friends. His hope, it seems, was to contain Trump and minimize the damage, maybe cajole Trump into not overtly continuing to sabotage and undermine NATO, not recklessly pulling out of the Iran Treaty, not pulling out of Syria, condeming Turkey for its invasion of the Syrian Kurds, acknowledging the continuing geopolitical threat Russia poses to Europe, not pulling out of the Paris Accord, etc, etc...

But Trump has continued to recklessly bulldoze through all of those things. It seems NATO means nothing anymore to the US. So now, Macron, it seems, is done with the nonsense. Earlier, he called NATO "brain-dead", and laid the blame on Trump. He joined Angela Merkel in saying that Europe could no longer really count on the US as an ally. Trump was incensed by this, and ironically enough, tried to defend NATO. Funny. But too little, too late. Macron is having none of it. At their joint press conference, he had no qualms about fact-checking Trump in real time as he spoke. It seems Trump thought he was on a Fox News interview again. It turns out facts and the truth actually do matter in these meetings.

And now at the NATO meeting, he is so radioactive that even the British politicians who want to be seen with him or have a picture with him, even his former buddy Boris Johnson. The relationships with our former allies are completely in tatters. America First really has become America alone.

Trump, in inheriting his father's fortune and being used to playing the big boss his whole life, has been used to being a bully and shoving people around and having them just have to take it. I think he is a little surprised now when people like Macron, or the congress, push back. He's not used to this. Oh well, we all learn- sometimes on the job.

But I wonder if the damage to our international reputation at this point is irreparable. With George W Bush, it took about 8 years to dig out from under the mess. But it was not completely hopeless. The US is no longer the country with the character, integrity, and vision to be the country everyone looks up to, the country which, even if by lip-service, has respect for the rule of law and pushes for human rights and global prosperity, stability, and peace. It's just another player in a petty, cynical, transactional vision of geopolitics. This time, I am afraid, the damage may be irreversible and fatal.
Click to expand...

Macron made a fool of himself.
 
The European leaders, as well as the heads of a number of other countries, are coming to terms with the character of President of the United States of America Donald Trump. They are learning how to manipulate him through flattering his ego and also how and when to push his hot buttons.

Like an offensive football team that's been figured out by the opposing team's defensive squad, President Trump will either change his game plan or lose. There's but a minute or two left in the third quarter.
 
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