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Thread: Impeachment as a non-partisan action

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    Re: Impeachment as a non-partisan action

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie1 View Post
    There is no other way, other than vote him out in 2020.

    When Nixon was voted out, it was bi-partisan, and the republicans had more ethics. He did a lot less than Trump has done.
    There was never an impeachment vote, there was the threat of a vote, hence why he resigned instead.
    And as to bipartisanship, recall that such bipartisanship was wholly nonexistent until the Nixon Tapes were revealed.
    Prior to that, the atmosphere among Republicans faintly mirrored today's, with the recognition that today's partisan atmosphere is much more heavily charged than it was back then.
    Still, GOP stonewalling of the House impeachment inquiry was not all that much different up to that point.
    Conservative pundits made similar predictions of failure all the way up until the Saturday Night Massacre and the tapes.
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    Re: Impeachment as a non-partisan action

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Disciplining a child hopefully does not consist of removing them from the family home for anything short of the most serious of (violent?) crimes. The question is, and always will be, what alleged criminal act rises to the level of removing a sitting POTUS from office a few months short of their possible re-election?
    I appreciate your error, as it is a common (and often deliberate) misconception. Impeachment has never required criminal conduct, and importing criminal standards is a gross error. Criminal conduct is certainly something that meets the standard, whenever it occurs. But this error proceeds from the perception that occupying the office (any office, not just potus) is a right, not a privilege. It is not. The framers' approach was that it was an honor that continued only so long as honorably acquitted. It exists entirely separate from election (which is why barring an impeached person from regaining office is a separate consideration), and from criminal processes.

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    Impeachment as a non-partisan action

    Quote Originally Posted by NWRatCon View Post

    Impeachment, in my view (and others like me), is what establishes our standard for appropriate behavior in office. Failure to invoke it when justified alters what is deemed "appropriate conduct". When I was in uniform I lived by the truism that "ignoring inappropriate behavior is an implicit endorsement of that behavior." That principle continues to guide me. It should guide all of us. In the context of impeachment it is always, "if not now, when?" A corollary is always, "if now, why?" The Constitution must always be the answer.
    Using impeachment to establish a “standard for appropriate behavior” is potentially perilous. Such reasoning leads to the possibility of impeachment utilized for arguably appropriate behavior.

    Let’s suppose Congress, specifically the House, disagrees with how the President has conducted his war powers. Specifically, the House collectively believed Lincoln’s act of ordering a blockade of the Confederate States, and his authorizing the seizure of property and possessions located on the seas and belonging to people domiciled in the Confederacy, was not “appropriate behavior in office.” So, to set a “standard” to determine “appropriate behavior in office” they impeach Lincoln. Essentially stating the blockade and authorized seizure of property was not “appropriate behavior in office.”

    Yet, your reasoning lead unimpeded, well justifies is more accurate, impeachment when and where the House wants to set a “standard” for “appropriate behavior.” Your reasoning justifies a broad broom approach to sweep executive conduct that is arguably permitted into impeachment to set a standard against what is arguably appropriate behavior.

    Of you can resort that you said “failure to invoke it when justified” is a limiting factor my argument ignores. Yet, that isn’t a limiting factor at all, or it is de minimis, as what is “justified” use seems to be entirely subjective.

    The Constitution says, inter alia, “high crimes and misdemeanors.” The motivation and justification should be that this conduct is so egregious, as shown by the facts, that it is a high crime or misdemeanor. Therefore, impeachment is justified. Impeachment should be used to establish what is or isn’t a high crime and misdemeanor, reserved for the most egregious conduct, and not a carving tool by the House to mold what it deems as “appropriate.”


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    Impeachment as a non-partisan action

    Quote Originally Posted by Keridan View Post
    I couldn't agree with your statement more(period) It was written for a reason and made challenging for a reason(period) It should always be considered an option, but if you are going to bring it, you better have proof ready to bring down the top office in the country or suffer the loss - either is fine, but that's the choice
    Impeachment “always considered an option” is tantamount to the president’s head always on Robespierre’s guillotine and counting the number of thumbs pointed down as to determine whether to attempt to chop off the head of the president.

    “Always considered an option”? That absolute statements covers, unfortunately, what arguably is appropriate behavior by the executive but not palatable behavior from the perception of the House. So, to fashion a Northern Star to guide future presidents of what the House deems appropriate by its collective opinion, they impeach the president for arguably appropriate behavior.

    Impeachment isn’t “always considered an option.” It is more akin to the nuclear option, reserved for consideration for the most egregious conduct.


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    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution and 4th president of the United States.

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    Re: Impeachment as a non-partisan action

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    I 100% support the idea of impeachment. It is there for a reason.
    that reason is that if there is a president that does something so criminal (IE putting the entire nations freedom at risk)
    or commits a crime so horrible (IE murder) that he can no longer effectively run the country.

    Then that person needs to be removed sooner than later. It is an emergency gap for a just in case situation.
    It is not meant to be used for what it is currently being used for.

    which is a 2020 campaign.
    The constitution says "misdemeanors" what misdemeanors are okay for removal in your eyes?

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    Re: Impeachment as a non-partisan action

    Quote Originally Posted by NotreDame View Post
    Impeachment “always considered an option” is tantamount to the president’s head always on Robespierre’s guillotine and counting the number of thumbs pointed down as to determine whether to attempt to chop off the head of the president.

    “Always considered an option”? That absolute statements covers, unfortunately, what arguably is appropriate behavior by the executive but not palatable behavior from the perception of the House. So, to fashion a Northern Star to guide future presidents of what the House deems appropriate by its collective opinion, they impeach the president for arguably appropriate behavior.

    Impeachment isn’t “always considered an option.” It is more akin to the nuclear option, reserved for consideration for the most egregious conduct.


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    Still an option, even when it's a very bad one(period) Hence the statement about being ready to bring the proof worthy of such a big decision
    Omniscience just sucks without omnipotence!


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    Re: Impeachment as a non-partisan action

    Taking the previous two posts together on essentially this point (and I appreciate the non-partisan tone):
    Quote Originally Posted by NotreDame View Post
    Impeachment isn’t “always considered an option.” It is more akin to the nuclear option, reserved for consideration for the most egregious conduct.
    My response, generally, is that I disagree. I think any federal office holder should behave as if the sword of Damocles was hanging over their head, to behave as if the post is not theirs by right and could be taken away at any time, to be as chaste as Caesar's wife. Remember, the House is voted every two years, so if they screw up, they get replaced.

    The framers expected impeachment to be much more prevalent and the House to be the primary legislative body - the motivator of the government, and closest to the people. The approach that it is "last resort" is a modern invention. They were chary of executives arrogating power to themselves, and debated the standard extensively. There are built-in checks: first, a super majority is required for removal; second, the option to bar such official from further office (or not); and third, as mentioned, the "high crimes and misdemeanors" standard. All militate against invoking it willy-nilly, but none lower the expectation of unimpeachable behavior - which literally means "beyond reproach" - in office.
    [Y]our reasoning lead[s to] unimpeded, well justifies is more accurate, impeachment when and where the House wants to set a “standard” for “appropriate behavior.”
    Yes, yes it does. That is part of the constitutional checks and balances.
    Last edited by NWRatCon; 11-27-19 at 11:37 AM.

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    Re: Impeachment as a non-partisan action


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    Re: Impeachment as a non-partisan action

    Mueller interview notes obtained by CNN show Trump's push for stolen emails; Highlights from the newly released FBI Mueller investigation notes (CNN). I provide these links to allow those who have an interest access to the direct evidence that forms the basis of independent thinking,

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    Re: Impeachment as a non-partisan action

    Court directs banks to provide Trump financial records to House Democrats (Reuters).
    A U.S. appeals court on Tuesday handed President Donald Trump another defeat in his bid to keep his financial records secret, directing Deutsche Bank AG (DBKGn.DE) and Capital One Financial Corp (COF.N) to comply with subpoenas from congressional Democrats demanding the material.

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