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Impeachment as a non-partisan action

So Hunter Biden is not an oil executive?

Hunter Biden being or not being an oil executive has no relevance to whether Joe Biden is corrupt.

You assume based on zero evidence.

No, you presented 0 evidence. I did not presume it. You have yet to show any evidence that you claim "clearly" shows Joe Biden is corrupt.

I never made a baseless accusation.

Of course you did. You said Biden is corrupt but presented 0 evidence. Thus, it's baseless.
 
Hunter Biden being or not being an oil executive has no relevance to whether Joe Biden is corrupt.
If there is no evidence why worry?


No, you presented 0 evidence. I did not presume it. You have yet to show any evidence that you claim "clearly" shows Joe Biden is corrupt.
I'm not going to it isn't in my interest to prove anything to you.


Of course you did. You said Biden is corrupt but presented 0 evidence. Thus, it's baseless.

Why do you assume it's baseless?
 
If there is no evidence why worry?

I don't know why you are worried or ask dumb questions.

I'm not going to it isn't in my interest to prove anything to you.

Why do you assume it's baseless?

:lamo :lamo :lamo

It's baseless because you provide no proof for it. Duh!
 
A lot of these people are mad at Democrats for making impeachment a partisan political tool. There is no way to have a fair impeachment process when the whole thing is totally partisan in the first place. Even Pelosi did not want to impeach unless she had some Republicans going along for the ride and then she got backed into a corner she could not get out of. Democrats are now putting on their show and soon the Republicans will be putting on their show. The handful of Republicans who did have an open mind in the beginning are now going to Trump's corner because they realize what a sham the whole thing is.

Except if you watched any of the hearings, read any of the reports, reviewed any of the evidence, you know that isn't true. The REPUBLICANS are certainly trying to make it seem partisan, but they are failing. And this thread was INTENDED to be non-partisan. Despite the efforts of many, I'd still like to try to keep it that way.
 
I don't know why you are worried or ask dumb questions.
That has been the modus operandi from the beginning. Propaganda devoid of substance. It's called "trolling".
 
I don't know why you are worried or ask dumb questions.
it's not a dumb question your behavior is rather odd. Almost like you're trying to convince yourself of the things you say.


:lamo :lamo :lamo

It's baseless because you provide no proof for it. Duh!
If it's baseless then you dismiss it.
 
That has been the modus operandi from the beginning. Propaganda devoid of substance. It's called "trolling".
Partly trolling someone asked that question and I answered it.

I'm not the one trying to get a president removed from office.
 
Except if you watched any of the hearings, read any of the reports, reviewed any of the evidence, you know that isn't true. The REPUBLICANS are certainly trying to make it seem partisan, but they are failing. And this thread was INTENDED to be non-partisan. Despite the efforts of many, I'd still like to try to keep it that way.

Oh please. The Democrats have been rabid in trying to take Trump down for three years now. Anyone can see it is all partisan politics.
 
First, I’m incredulous that “most scholars think it means something congress doesn’t like.”

Second, reducing the analysis to a popularity contest establishes only the number of people in agreement. Such head counting is not indicative of who is right, who is wrong, or what is or isn’t a strong, logical argument.

Third, the conclusion you made was qualified with the word “should.” More specifically, impeachment “should always be an option.” I interjected that such a broad statement would encapsulate behavior by a president that is appropriate.

I then opined impeachment shouldn’t be considered for the exercise of power that is appropriate. ....
I've been trying to squirrel away time to respond to your detailed and thought out, not hair-on-fire posts, but I've been otherwise engaged. I'll be back, hopeful today. It could be fun.
 
The rule of law as it applies to his own crimes and those of his sycophants. Holding him accountable by impeachment is supporting the rule of law since removing him opens him up to prosecution.

Derp.

"Rule of law" is not limited to criminality, nor is impeachment. As an example: Congress has the power of the purse and appropriates funds for needful and appropriate purposes (Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, Clause 7 (the Appropriations Clause) and Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 (the Taxing and Spending Clause).). Nixon "impounded" appropriated funds for programs he didn't like. Because he resigned, this action did not get resolved either in the courts or through impeachment. It did result, however, in The Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974 (ICA) . If a president violates the terms of this law, his action is "illegal" (beyond the law) but not necessarily "criminal". Same with the War Powers Act. Violating these laws, however, could constitute "abuse of power", and be a basis for impeachment. Reagan could have been impeached on this basis over Iran-Contra, but left office before it was resolved, and Bush pardoned the main witness before his involvement could be established.
 
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Another point in that vein: assume that the Supreme Court affirms the Courts of Appeal regarding subpoenas and witness appearances, but a President refuses to accept that decision and comply, what option does Congress, and more specifically, the Constitution, provide for that intransigence? That is what "Rule of Law" means and why impeachment is the appropriate remedy.
 
Another point in that vein: assume that the Supreme Court affirms the Courts of Appeal regarding subpoenas and witness appearances, but a President refuses to accept that decision and comply, what option does Congress, and more specifically, the Constitution, provide for that intransigence? That is what "Rule of Law" means and why impeachment is the appropriate remedy.

Well, Trump could obstruct and then impeachment would happen. It's the only solvent. IT would set a horrid precedent, and if the republicans didn't remove him for that, well. IDK?
 
I take the phrase “any time” literally, to include all behavior, even the most righteous behavior, the most appropriate behavior, is included.
I don't think that is a reasonable construction of the argument I have made. Righteous and appropriate behavior is never in question or could form the basis for impeachment. In that sense, that is a strawman argument.
But the Constitution doesn’t contemplate those federal positions to potentially “be taken away at any time.” The impeachment provisions reference treason, bribery, and other high crimes and misdemeanors, which excludes appropriate behavior. Unless of course it is logical to think appropriate behavior can constitute as treason, bribery, or high crimes and misdemeanors.
Now you have just made my point. Just because impeachment is "always an option" does not, ipso facto, imply that it can be for any reason. Instead, my argument is, and remains, that the constellation of "reasons" is much broader than is often argued (e.g., criminality).

"High Crimes and misdemeanors" implies relatively minor malfeasance is sufficient - particularly as that particular phrase's history at the time of the ratification of the Constitution was well-established: Impeachable Offenses (LII). "The Convention came to its choice of words describing the grounds for impeachment after much deliberation, but the phrasing derived directly from the English practice." That article further provides, "'High crimes and misdemeanors,' however, is an undefined and indefinite phrase, which, in England, had comprehended conduct not constituting indictable offenses."
Debate prior to adoption of the phrase and comments thereafter in the ratifying conventions were to the effect that the President (all the debate was in terms of the President) should be removable by impeachment for commissions or omissions in office which were not criminally cognizable. And in the First Congress’s “removal” debate, Madison maintained that the wanton dismissal of meritorious officers would be an act of maladministration which would render the President subject to impeachment.
As Jon Roland of the Constitution Society puts it:
The question of impeachment turns on the meaning of the phrase in the Constitution at Art. II Sec. 4, "Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors". I have carefully researched the origin of the phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors" and its meaning to the Framers, and found that the key to understanding it is the word "high". It does not mean "more serious". It refers to those punishable offenses that only apply to high persons, that is, to public officials, those who, because of their official status, are under special obligations that ordinary persons are not under, and which could not be meaningfully applied or justly punished if committed by ordinary persons.
Meaning of "High Crimes and Misdemeanors". And, as Professor Bowman of the University of Missouri argues,
There are two strong arguments against the idea that the phrase requires criminal behavior: a historical one and a practical one. The history of the phrase “high crimes and misdemeanors” and of how it entered our Constitution establishes beyond serious dispute that it extends far beyond mere criminal conduct. The practical reasoning is in some ways more important: A standard that permitted the removal of presidents only for indictable crimes would leave the nation defenseless against the most dangerous kinds of presidential behavior.
The Common Misconception About ‘High Crimes and Misdemeanors’
(Atlantic)
Those federal positions should worry about impeachment when they’ve acted inappropriately, or engaged in wrongful conduct, including of course illegal action. They shouldn’t have to worry about the possibility of Robespierre’s guillotine falling even when and where they’ve acted appropriately.
On this we simply agree.

Which leads me to ask the question (especially for those defending him), "Do you think the President has acted appropriately?"
 
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I don't think that is a reasonable construction of the argument I have made. Righteous and appropriate behavior is never in question or could form the basis for impeachment. In that sense, that is a strawman argument. Now you have just made my point. Just because impeachment is "always an option" does not, ipso facto, imply that it can be for any reason. Instead, my argument is, and remains, that the constellation of "reasons" is much broader than is often argued (e.g., criminality).

"High Crimes and misdemeanors" implies relatively minor malfeasance is sufficient - particularly as that particular phrase's history at the time of the ratification of the Constitution was well-established: Impeachable Offenses (LII). "The Convention came to its choice of words describing the grounds for impeachment after much deliberation, but the phrasing derived directly from the English practice." That article further provides, "'High crimes and misdemeanors,' however, is an undefined and indefinite phrase, which, in England, had comprehended conduct not constituting indictable offenses." As Jon Roland of the Constitution Society puts it: Meaning of "High Crimes and Misdemeanors". And, as Professor Bowman of the University of Missouri argues, The Common Misconception About ‘High Crimes and Misdemeanors’
(Atlantic)
On this we simply agree.

Which leads me to ask the question (especially for those defending him), "Do you think the President has acted appropriately?"

Which leads me to ask the question (especially for those defending him), "Do you think the President has acted appropriately?"

To adequately answer this question requires considerable typing. So, for sake of brevity, I will condense to the following.

1. A president can legitimately and lawfully ask a foreign power to investigate a U.S. citizen.
2. Number one is not made unlawful or illegitimate on the basis the person to be investigated is a political rival. In other words, number 1 is applicable to a political rival.
3. The fact the president could benefit politically by an investigation into a political rival does not render the request to investigate unlawful or illegitimate.
3. Numbers 1 and 2 can be unlawful and illegitimate when and where the president knew or should have known there lacked a proper factual basis to ask for an investigation of the person. In other words, when and where the president sincerely believed, in good faith believed, an investigation was needed, the request is legitimate and lawful, but sincerity and good faith belief can be properly rebutted or diminished by evidence the president knew or should have known there was nothing to investigate or no merit in asking for an investigation.

If Trump sincerely believed and had a good faith belief, then his request for the investigation is not an impeachable offense. If, however, Trump did not, and the evidence shows he lacked a good faith and sincere belief, then I do believe he has committed an impeachable offense on the basis of these facts.


Now you have just made my point. Just because impeachment is "always an option" does not, ipso facto, imply that it can be for any reason.

You are just resorting to special pleading.

You have made my point with the words of "ANY" and "ALWAYS" in the phrases of "taken away at any time" and "always an option." I am not going to ignore a logical, plain meaning of those words just because you find those meanings particularly inconvenient for your argument.

Impeachment as "always an option" means at "ALL TIMES" impeachment is an option, including those "times" when the president has acted appropriately, righteously. "Taken away at any time" similarly means, by use of the word "any" in relation to "time, to include those "times" when the federal office holder has acted appropriately, righteously. After all, the phrase is "any time" and that very word, "any" includes those times of appropriate and righteous behavior.

As I said, I am not going to ignore the logical, plain meaning of those words because they are inconvenient with your argument.

Instead, my argument is, and remains, that the constellation of "reasons" is much broader than is often argued (e.g., criminality).

Fine, but this point can be made without using the words "any" and "all" which point beyond a your mere "broader" view you advocate for above.
 
To adequately answer this question requires considerable typing. So, for sake of brevity, I will condense to the following.

1. A president can legitimately and lawfully ask a foreign power to investigate a U.S. citizen.
2. Number one is not made unlawful or illegitimate on the basis the person to be investigated is a political rival. In other words, number 1 is applicable to a political rival.
3. The fact the president could benefit politically by an investigation into a political rival does not render the request to investigate unlawful or illegitimate.
3. Numbers 1 and 2 can be unlawful and illegitimate when and where the president knew or should have known there lacked a proper factual basis to ask for an investigation of the person. In other words, when and where the president sincerely believed, in good faith believed, an investigation was needed, the request is legitimate and lawful, but sincerity and good faith belief can be properly rebutted or diminished by evidence the president knew or should have known there was nothing to investigate or no merit in asking for an investigation.

If Trump sincerely believed and had a good faith belief, then his request for the investigation is not an impeachable offense. If, however, Trump did not, and the evidence shows he lacked a good faith and sincere belief, then I do believe he has committed an impeachable offense on the basis of these facts.




You are just resorting to special pleading.

You have made my point with the words of "ANY" and "ALWAYS" in the phrases of "taken away at any time" and "always an option." I am not going to ignore a logical, plain meaning of those words just because you find those meanings particularly inconvenient for your argument.

Impeachment as "always an option" means at "ALL TIMES" impeachment is an option, including those "times" when the president has acted appropriately, righteously. "Taken away at any time" similarly means, by use of the word "any" in relation to "time, to include those "times" when the federal office holder has acted appropriately, righteously. After all, the phrase is "any time" and that very word, "any" includes those times of appropriate and righteous behavior.

As I said, I am not going to ignore the logical, plain meaning of those words because they are inconvenient with your argument.



Fine, but this point can be made without using the words "any" and "all" which point beyond a your mere "broader" view you advocate for above.

I'm not going to belabor the point, as it is clear to me you won't concede anything. I'll simply note three things: "any time" is not the same as "any reason" - by ignoring the context of the statement that creates an obvious strawman argument - I know you know better, so I can only conclude this is deliberate; Giuliani never has been a public employee of the administration, so his active participation in this charade is not official in any way, but for the "personal benefit" of his "client", as he so often reiterates; there must be a rational basis for a "belief" and here there is obviously none, as all the ancillary evidence demonstrates an insincerity in the "belief"/excuse - inter alia, a request for a "public announcement" rather than an actual investigation, not using official channels, lack of any evidence, hiding communications, etc.
 
I'm not going to cite much on the topic, as no one will read them anyway. My point, though, is to highlight a significant population that is overlooked in the partisan wrangling over the topic. While it is true that attitudes about impeachment are relatively fixed among party stalwarts, there is a swath of voters/observers who view this process as a necessary, if unpleasant, thing - like disciplining your child.

The Constitution provides the mechanism and standards for impeachment. The framers provided context for it - why it exists, and when it should be invoked. Those standards were debated then, and are certainly the subject of intense debate now. Although only four presidents have faced actual impeachment efforts (it is mentioned rhetorically more often than not), it has been, for our entire history, part and parcel of our constitutional framework. It has guided behavior in office, and ensured that government largely remains within bounds. So it should be now.

I am one of those non-partisan citizens who view the current process as necessary, but unfortunately infected with partisan rancor. (I know many accuse me of being a partisan, but that comes from profound misunderstanding of both the concept and my attitudes.) Impeachment, in my view (and others like me), is what establishes our standard for appropriate behavior in office. Failure to invoke it when justified alters what is deemed "appropriate conduct". When I was in uniform I lived by the truism that "ignoring inappropriate behavior is an implicit endorsement of that behavior." That principle continues to guide me. It should guide all of us. In the context of impeachment it is always, "if not now, when?" A corollary is always, "if now, why?" The Constitution must always be the answer.

I view this impeachment as 100% pure political partisan. Nothing non-partisan about it. It seems to me whether Trump needs to be impeached and removed gets totally lost among the ultra high partisan political propaganda spouted by both sides. Among all the very partisan rancor as you put it, one is unable to determine fact from fiction, justified or not. A political vendetta or a real need to reign in a president who has violated the constitution.

Regardless, the Constitution has provided a means to seperate partisan impeachment from the non-partisan. The house is free to impeach for any reason they deem warrants impeachment. Partisan reasons or non-partisan reasons. But with the 2/3rds requirement in the senate trial to convict and remove, that takes the partisanship out of it. To remove a president, it required votes from both major parties to convict and remove. Not just one.

A safe guard the framers wrote into the constitution to prevent a partisan political vendetta from succeeding. The impeachment of Andrew Johnson came close, the votes in the senate were there to convict and remove Nixon. Enough senators from both parties agreed, a non-partisan impeachment or about as close to one as one can get. Bill Clinton's was in my view purely partisan. Trump's has more the feel of Bill Clinton's impeachment than Nixon's.
 
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I view this impeachment as 100% pure political partisan. Nothing non-partisan about it. It seems to me whether Trump needs to be impeached and removed gets totally lost among the ultra high partisan political propaganda spouted by both sides. Among all the very partisan rancor as you put it, one is unable to determine fact from fiction, justified or not. A political vendetta or a real need to reign in a president who has violated the constitution.

Regardless, the Constitution has provided a means to seperate partisan impeachment from the non-partisan. The house is free to impeach for any reason they deem warrants impeachment. Partisan reasons or non-partisan reasons. But with the 2/3rds requirement in the senate trial to convict and remove, that takes the partisanship out of it. To remove a president, it required votes from both major parties to convict and remove. Not just one.

A safe guard the framers wrote into the constitution to prevent a partisan political vendetta from succeeding. The impeachment of Andrew Johnson came close, the votes in the senate were there to convict and remove Nixon. Enough senators from both parties agreed, a non-partisan impeachment or about as close to one as one can get. Bill Clinton's was in my view purely partisan. Trump's has more the feel of Bill Clinton's impeachment than Nixon's.

Except, of course, that is Republican methodology. In that regard, while I agree with most of your analysis, I think equating the Trump impeachment with Clinton's is facile in the extreme - which is the point of this thread.

The allegations against Nixon and Trump, unlike Clinton, were that they used the office of the presidency for corrupt purposes. They obstructed an investigation, withheld evidence, manipulated processes, etc., using their position for personal ends. These are the precise reasons impeachment was established in the Constitution.

Because of that, the strategy of the Republicans has been to make it appear partisan, when it is not. This is serious misconduct that goes to the core of the constitutional structure. It deserves to be considered as such, on the merits. I've watched as much of the hearings as I can stomach. In that time I have seen precious little of Republican defenders addressing the substance of the actions. Instead, they have enlisted every form of subterfuge, distraction, diversion and dishonesty imaginable, all to shore up partisan loyalty, not serious consideration of the constitutional question.

I do think that there is a good chance the majority of Senators will vote for removal (or censure), but little chance it will reach the 2/3 threshold - not because of the merits, but based upon partisan calculations. It is here your analysis breaks down.
 
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Talking about the Trump Impeachment in terms of the Clinton Impeachment is the false equivalency of all time. I am not even sure you could Impeach Bill Clinton today for his "crimes" in 1998. Boinking the intern and committing perjury by lying about it....good luck with that one given the utter lack of an ethical framework for this current muttonhead in the WH.

Trump's abuses of power make Clinton's look like child's play.
 
Except, of course, that is Republican methodology. In that regard, while I agree with most of your analysis, I think equating the Trump impeachment with Clinton's is facile in the extreme - which is the point of this thread.

The allegations against Nixon and Trump, unlike Clinton, were that they used the office of the presidency for corrupt purposes. They obstructed an investigation, withheld evidence, manipulated processes, etc., using their position for personal ends. These are the precise reasons impeachment was established in the Constitution.

Because of that, the strategy of the Republicans has been to make it appear partisan, when it is not. This is serious misconduct that goes to the core of the constitutional structure. It deserves to be considered as such, on the merits. I've watched as much of the hearings as I can stomach. In that time I have seen precious little of Republican defenders addressing the substance of the actions. Instead, they have enlisted every form of subterfuge, distraction, diversion and dishonesty imaginable, all to shore up partisan loyalty, not serious consideration of the constitutional question.

I do think that there is a good chance the majority of Senators will vote for removal (or censure), but little chance it will reach the 2/3 threshold - not because of the merits, but based upon partisan calculations. It is here your analysis breaks down.

When 90% of Democrats want Trump impeached and removed vs. 90% of Republicans who are against it, that in itself shows how partisan this thing is. These figures are much higher than Bill Clinton's. 68% of Republicans thought Bill should be impeached and removed vs 94% of Democrat who thought he shouldn't. With Nixon it was 71% of Democrats behind impeachment and removal vs. 59% of Republicans against.

You had 30% of Republicans siding with the democrats on Bill Clinton's impeachment and removal against it. You had 31% of Republicans siding with the Democrats on impeachment and removal of Nixon. 30% may not sound as much, but I think it is significant number or percentage. That percentage made Nixon's impeachment and removal doable, that number ensured Bill's wasn't. Trump's impeachment and removal certainly isn't doable, so it is more like Bill's than Nixon's. I'm not arguing the reasons, just pointing out the numbers. Numbers in this case become much more important than the reasons which are valid to some, invalid to others. Justified or a political vendetta.

You do have according to the numbers a very partisan impeachment. Even independents are split evenly on this. Roughly 40% for, 40% against with 20% either undecided or just plain don't care.
 
When 90% of Democrats want Trump impeached and removed vs. 90% of Republicans who are against it, that in itself shows how partisan this thing is. These figures are much higher than Bill Clinton's. 68% of Republicans thought Bill should be impeached and removed vs 94% of Democrat who thought he shouldn't. With Nixon it was 71% of Democrats behind impeachment and removal vs. 59% of Republicans against.

You had 30% of Republicans siding with the democrats on Bill Clinton's impeachment and removal against it. You had 31% of Republicans siding with the Democrats on impeachment and removal of Nixon. 30% may not sound as much, but I think it is significant number or percentage. That percentage made Nixon's impeachment and removal doable, that number ensured Bill's wasn't. Trump's impeachment and removal certainly isn't doable, so it is more like Bill's than Nixon's. I'm not arguing the reasons, just pointing out the numbers. Numbers in this case become much more important than the reasons which are valid to some, invalid to others. Justified or a political vendetta.

You do have according to the numbers a very partisan impeachment. Even independents are split evenly on this. Roughly 40% for, 40% against with 20% either undecided or just plain don't care.

I do not think the numbers show what you think they do. That assumes that the basis for the opinion is partisan choice. There œis not a demonstrated basis for making that determination. There are two faults in the logic. First, party membership only accounts for about half the electorate, so the opinions are skewed. About 50% of Independents also support impeachment. I don't think that can be attributed to partisanship. Second, as this thread posits, there is a substantial non-partisan, constitutional basis for impeachment that has both legal and historical roots. The opinion polls do not capture the bases for people's opinions.
 
there must be a rational basis for a "belief" and here there is obviously none, as all the ancillary evidence demonstrates an insincerity in the "belief"/excuse - inter alia, a request for a "public announcement" rather than an actual investigation, not using official channels, lack of any evidence, hiding communications, etc.

“[O]bviously none”? The evidence logically cannot establish such a negative, that something doesn’t exist, here that a “rational basis for a ‘belief’” doesn’t exist. Instead, the evidence can establish as justifiable an opinion that Trump’s belief wasn’t rational. We aren’t omniscient, logically it is not possible to conclude a rational belief doesn’t exist for Trump. It could a rational belief does or did exist, Trump had one, but at the moment we have no evidence indicating he had a rational belief, and there is evidence supporting the claim the belief by Trump is irrational.

I do believe the evidence, at the moment, points toward Trump’s belief as insincere, not in good faith.


I'm not going to belabor the point, as it is clear to me you won't concede anything. I'll simply note three things: "any time" is not the same as "any reason" - by ignoring the context of the statement that creates an obvious strawman argument - I know you know better, so I can only conclude this is deliberate;

This is the problem. It is someone else’s fault that they couldn’t read your mind that to you the phrase “any time” doesn’t literally mean “any time.” All you’ve done is rationalized your special pleading.

Then, the notion you perhaps used a phrase that conveyed a broader point than you desired is dismissed as a possibility. You conclude there’s no rational way to see this any other way but your own, and as a result, it’s a deliberate error being committed. As if your rationalization was so ineluctable, so incontrovertible, that no rational person would want to disagree, just as no sane person would disagree with 2+2=4, or gravity accelerates objects towards the ground at 9.8 meters per second squared.

But it’s bull crap, the phrase you used of “any time” is as broad and vast as the good ol’ fashion plain, logical meaning of those words and the phrase indicates. Your subsequent special pleading of “context” is just that, special pleading, and there isn’t any deliberate error on my behalf as my view is based on a rational, logical, plain reading of your post. What’s “deliberate” is your inability, no, refusal to see your error.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
This is the problem. It is someone else’s fault that they couldn’t read your mind that to you the phrase “any time” doesn’t literally mean “any time.” All you’ve done is rationalized your special pleading.

Then, the notion you perhaps used a phrase that conveyed a broader point than you desired is dismissed as a possibility. You conclude there’s no rational way to see this any other way but your own, and as a result, it’s a deliberate error being committed. As if your rationalization was so ineluctable, so incontrovertible, that no rational person would want to disagree, just as no sane person would disagree with 2+2=4, or gravity accelerates objects towards the ground at 9.8 meters per second squared.

But it’s bull crap, the phrase you used of “any time” is as broad and vast as the good ol’ fashion plain, logical meaning of those words and the phrase indicates. Your subsequent special pleading of “context” is just that, special pleading, and there isn’t any deliberate error on my behalf as my view is based on a rational, logical, plain reading of your post. What’s “deliberate” is your inability, no, refusal to see your error.
I invite you, my friend, to go back and read the posts - in context. I was never unclear about what I meant and the scope of the comment. That you chose to interpret it in the light you wanted to argue is not on me. No one else seemed to be "confused." I'm not the defensive one here. Feel free to belabor away.

Original
NWRatCon said:
I think any federal office holder should behave as if the sword of Damocles was hanging over their head, to behave as if the post is not theirs by right and could be taken away at any time.
Poll: Anyone else confused?
 
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I invite you, my friend, to go back and read the posts - in context. I was never unclear about what I meant and the scope of the comment. That you chose to interpret it in the light you wanted to argue is not on me. No one else seemed to be "confused." I'm not the defensive one here. Feel free to belabor away.

Original Poll: Anyone else confused?

By what poor and bizarre logic do you now seek to use to make sense of your invocation of a popularity contest? You’ve deluded yourself into thinking a head count in your favor means your interpretation is right. What fun awaits us if some assertion, claim, interpretation, statement, can be evaluated for strength and truth by a show of hands.

Regardless, I said, in response to your specific paragraph, the following:

“Those federal positions should worry about impeachment when they’ve acted inappropriately, or engaged in wrongful conduct, including of course illegal action. They shouldn’t have to worry about the possibility of Robespierre’s guillotine falling even when and where they’ve acted appropriately.”

Got it? Your wording, to be correct what is now revealed to be your poor word choice, of office holders behaving as if they could at “any time” lose their position by impeachment means at all times, including those times when they’ve done nothing worthy of impeachment. No amount of poor rationalization can save your word blunder.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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This thread devolved into a series of irrelevancies, but the subject, I think, is still viable. I still contend that there is a substantial basis for impeachment that is non-partisan. Now, however, since impeachment has occurred, the question evolves to: is there a pragmatic, non-partisan basis to support removal?
 
The articles of impeachment have been taken to the Senate. At the same time, thousands of new documents were released. Tonight, Lev Parnas was interviewed by Rachel Maddow. I believe this new information increases both the likelihood of witnesses being called, and the possibility of actual removal. I've not felt that way until now. It's that explosive.
 
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