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Voelker has changed his testimony, says there was money for investigation of Bidens

Exactly what Volker said. I watched all 12 hours, and thought all four witnesses, Lt. Col. Vindman and Jennifer Williams in the morning, Ambassador Volker and Tim Morrison in the afternoon, came across as honest, truthful, non-defensive and non-hostile, and I found them all credible even though each had a differing perception of what the infamous phone call meant, depending on how much other information they had about the "scheme" at the time.

Volker in particular said that in hindsight he should have put together the relationship between Busima, Hunter Biden and Joe Biden earlier, but insisted that Joe Biden had not and would not have ever done anything wrong. Morrison, who was only in his job for a few weeks, barely long enough to find the restroom, saw nothing legally wrong with the phone call (although he's not a lawyer), but also came across as forthright, honest... if confused by a convoluted cast of characters into the midst of which he was thrown... and clearly was trying to relate his own perception of the incident(s) as honestly as possible.

So far, all witnesses have impressed me as professional, experienced and extremely knowledgeable (except for Morrison), forthright and honest with the committee, and none showed any obvious partisan bias for either side during their testimony.

I do not buy Volker's naive "I did not see it at the time", he was constantly texting w/ Giuliani and Sondland, he knows what Giuliani has become, he knows that he is THE personal attorney for orange, he knew Giuliani was pushing various CT's.....and Volker is an intelligent guy.....so this whole act is just not believable.
 
Exactly what Volker said. I watched all 12 hours, and thought all four witnesses, Lt. Col. Vindman and Jennifer Williams in the morning, Ambassador Volker and Tim Morrison in the afternoon, came across as honest, truthful, non-defensive and non-hostile, and I found them all credible even though each had a differing perception of what the infamous phone call meant, depending on how much other information they had about the "scheme" at the time.

Volker in particular said that in hindsight he should have put together the relationship between Busima, Hunter Biden and Joe Biden earlier, but insisted that Joe Biden had not and would not have ever done anything wrong. Morrison, who was only in his job for a few weeks, barely long enough to find the restroom, saw nothing legally wrong with the phone call (although he's not a lawyer), but also came across as forthright, honest... if confused by a convoluted cast of characters into the midst of which he was thrown... and clearly was trying to relate his own perception of the incident(s) as honestly as possible.

So far, all witnesses have impressed me as professional, experienced and extremely knowledgeable (except for Morrison), forthright and honest with the committee, and none showed any obvious partisan bias for either side during their testimony.

I've been impressed with all the witnesses so far in one way or another.
 
I am no longer calling this a quid pro quo because apparently trump and his followers may not understand what that means. I will call it what it really is, bribery, so Trump and all of his followers can understand. And now Voelker like Sondland befor him is changing his testimony and now saying that it was a military money for the investigation of the Biden's. I wonder how Sondland's testimony will now change as each person who testifies brings Voelker and Sondland closer to perjury charges if they continue to lie to protect Trump.
You can call it anything you want. The Constitution guarantees you the right to say any stupid thing you his. :lamo
 
Yep, me too.

For some reason thinking about diplomats serving in this administration made me think of an old saying.

"Doing a good job here is like pissing your pants in a dark suit. You get a warm feeling but nobody notices."
 
Hes pretty clearly indicated he was incorrect in his previous statements. The bribe exists.

Trump bribed zelensky. The fact it's a benefit for the president personally is established.

As usual trump is his own worst enemy.

The rnc's already running ads about burisma and biden.

Hot damn this is insane.
Still, no there, there. Sorry.
 
Are you claiming that OP is wrong about what he said factually? When there is information that is publicly available, my experience is that anyone who demands "proof" or "evidence" of it has a dismissal lined up in their queue. I have never once provided the actual evidence and had someone who challenged me say, "oh, I see." It's always "yes, it's there, but <dismissal>". Mycroft is #1 in that regard. You're a new poster. Stick around and pay attention to him, then you'll see.

Meanwhile, while I have not agreed with every conclusion or opinion independentUSA has, I have not known him to straight-up lie about a fact. So when he says he was paying attention and so-and-so said these words, I'm willing to accept it. That can/will change the moment he gets anything horribly wrong.




There are posters I respect because they are honest and intelligent. There are posters I do not respect for various reasons. I can't say more here. I most certainly am not going to waste my time on a poster who demands "proof" when I've seen them do that a million times before, only to **** all over the alleged "proof" without arguing anything. If you means that you dismiss what I've said in this thread, so be it....

:shrug:

When I've got something of my own to say, I do back it up, and you can see that if you look at the relatively few threads I've started in the four years I've been here. Of course, if you look at that, you will also see that I get quite sharp with people if I'm fed up with their BS.

Extra credit: posters who regularly utter "you are dismissed" are not here to debate.




Substance!

I don't need Volker or anyone to say anything more. I accept Mueller's conclusion on criminal conspiracy. I resent that so little attention was paid to the many instances of obstruction of justice. If I said "Eisenberg", just how many people would realize I was referring to instance #9 - roughly around page 244-46 (could be wrong, don't quote me) of the memo, I think? How many?

But with this Ukraine thing, their own edited memo (which they called a transcript despite it saying quite clearly that it was not on the first page - bottom - and on top, that if that was a transcript it would have been at about 65 spoken words per minute when other calls analyzed by Wapo were more like 120-130.

If that also makes you want to tell me it's my duty to provide proof, and only in that case....

I've posted about that before here. I cited the WaPo article. About this "duty to prove" thing you raised.....does this mean you won't believe me unless I go find my old post from 2ish months ago, get the link, get the article, and show it to you? Yeah. Exactly. And that is the precise reason people play the "show me proof" game: they know you don't want to do the work, and they know you won't do it if they've responded to you similarly in the past).




It's a message board. You probably didn't read this far. A message this long gets "tl;dr", so one must speak in short-hand. And doing that makes a post ripe for "show me proof" bull****. Games and games again.

I've pulled us off topic. Reply in pm
 
I'm starting to think that the left's hatred of Trump has become a subconscious routine, like respiration or facial expressions. It's not a product of rational thought.
 
I do not buy Volker's naive "I did not see it at the time", he was constantly texting w/ Giuliani and Sondland, he knows what Giuliani has become, he knows that he is THE personal attorney for orange, he knew Giuliani was pushing various CT's.....and Volker is an intelligent guy.....so this whole act is just not believable.

:shrug: All I can say is that if he is a deliberate liar, he's a damned good one.

Seriously, I kinda believe that he was being tossed individual links of a chain, ran with it because he was so engrossed with Ukraine's need for strong U.S. support and maintenance of U.S. national security required by propping up the beleaguered regime that he was not in a position to know the machinations going on in D.C. (he lives in Ukraine, after all) and his priority was Zelensky, the new Ukrainian president that Volker honestly believed could turn that corrupt country around. Volker didn't look for cockroaches under the rug, because he was too focused on what he perceived as the most important part of his job, helping Ukraine pass those anti-corruptions bills (they did) and establishing a rapport between Zelensky and Trump, who Volker knew had a very negative view of Ukraine from the get-go.

Of course, what Volker did not and could not know is that said "negative view of Ukraine" came from Putin's mouth to Trump's ear. Anyway, I can't in good conscience fault the guy I watched testify without a visible hint of guile or subterfuge, even though he was basically giving the GOP a thin-but-usable talking point.
 
For some reason thinking about diplomats serving in this administration made me think of an old saying.

"Doing a good job here is like pissing your pants in a dark suit. You get a warm feeling but nobody notices."

Absolutely. ALL of these witnesses had one main focus, helping Ukraine fight off Russian aggression and their own internal corruption under a new, and hopefully clean-hands regime. They all cared deeply about the Ukrainians, and each in their own way were appalled by what came to be revealed about Trump/Guiliani's "personal interest" scheme using Ukraine as a scapegoat. Well, all except Morrison; he frankly didn't seem to care one way or the other, having been heaved into a slithering snake pit from which he extricated himself, and couldn't wait to get the hell out of D.C. altogether!
 
They all cared deeply about the Ukrainians, and each in their own way were appalled by what came to be revealed about Trump/Guiliani's "personal interest" scheme using Ukraine as a scapegoat.
But that is the point, I did not hear any sort of "being appalled" reaction from Volker. His was more a befuddled reaction, which again, I do not buy.
 
But that is the point, I did not hear any sort of "being appalled" reaction from Volker. His was more a befuddled reaction, which again, I do not buy.

You're entitled to that perception; I don't actually share it, but see why others might.
 
Collusion. Quid pro quo. Bribery. I thought we were up to extortion by now. Bear in mind, we have to get through the whole federal code. Gonna have to pick up the pace. Here's a thought - why not list everything, and just cross out the ones you don't like?
Next week it will be treason

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