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A question concerning pardons for those who know?

independentusa

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Roger Stone was found guilty in a Federal Court on 7 counts. Stone and some people on right wing media are calling on trump to pardon Stone. One I saw actually calling on God to push Trump to do so. My question is if Trump does pardon Stone, can another level of government, such as a state, try him for the same crimes as the Federal courts after the pardon wipes the slate clean? Does double jeopardy apply when a person has been pardoned on the Federal level conviction in a State court? Would the State court system have to come up with crimes totally different from those used in the Federal courts?
 
Roger Stone was found guilty in a Federal Court on 7 counts. Stone and some people on right wing media are calling on trump to pardon Stone. One I saw actually calling on God to push Trump to do so. My question is if Trump does pardon Stone, can another level of government, such as a state, try him for the same crimes as the Federal courts after the pardon wipes the slate clean? Does double jeopardy apply when a person has been pardoned on the Federal level conviction in a State court? Would the State court system have to come up with crimes totally different from those used in the Federal courts?

The biggest downside for Stone is he can't claim the 5th if he accepts a pardon... There are no state charges for lying to congress... I don't see Trump pardoning him before he leaves office either in Jan 2021 or Jan 2025...
 
Roger Stone was found guilty in a Federal Court on 7 counts. Stone and some people on right wing media are calling on trump to pardon Stone. One I saw actually calling on God to push Trump to do so. My question is if Trump does pardon Stone, can another level of government, such as a state, try him for the same crimes as the Federal courts after the pardon wipes the slate clean? Does double jeopardy apply when a person has been pardoned on the Federal level conviction in a State court? Would the State court system have to come up with crimes totally different from those used in the Federal courts?

Federal and state courts are two entirely different and independent creatures. They don't speak to each other.
 
My question is if Trump does pardon Stone, can another level of government, such as a state, try him for the same crimes as the Federal courts after the pardon wipes the slate clean? Does double jeopardy apply when a person has been pardoned on the Federal level conviction in a State court? Would the State court system have to come up with crimes totally different from those used in the Federal courts?

It depends on the crime and the state. The crimes Stone was just convicted of were all Federal in nature (e.g. lying to Congress, intimidating a witness to a Federal case)... so no, a state could not retry him for those crimes.

Manafort, another Trump associate often cited for a possible pardon, on the other hand committed financial crimes which were illegal both at the Federal level and in the state of New York. Some states have laws barring them from trying someone who is being (or has been) prosecuted for a similar federal crime... but New York is not one of them. Indeed, Manafort is currently on trial in New York for 16 charges similar to those he was already convicted of in Federal court. Thus, even if Trump pardoned him Manafort would likely be convicted in New York and remain in jail.

Trump using a pardon in either case could also become yet another article of impeachment as both men committed obstruction of justice seemingly in efforts to shield Trump. If he then pardoned them a case could be made that this was a use of his official powers for corrupt purposes... rewarding criminals for hiding evidence of his own crimes. There would also very likely be a case made that the pardons were invalid... which would unquestionably wind up before the Supreme Court and could go either way.
 
Roger Stone was found guilty in a Federal Court on 7 counts. Stone and some people on right wing media are calling on trump to pardon Stone. One I saw actually calling on God to push Trump to do so.

I'd like to give you a more detailed answer:
If Trump does pardon Stone, can another level of government, such as a state, try him for the same crimes as the Federal courts after the pardon wipes the slate clean? Does double jeopardy apply when a person has been pardoned on the Federal level conviction in a State court? Would the State court system have to come up with crimes totally different from those used in the Federal courts?
Not the same (i.e., federal) crimes. In order for the State to try him, he has to have violated a State law. It can be on the same facts and for the same actions, however, just not the same statute.

He could not, though, be tried again in FEDERAL court, except for crimes not covered by the pardon (e.g., subsequent, or uncharged conduct). Pardons usually occur only after conviction, but can be done before trial (or even before charging, a la Nixon, if the factual/legal description is specific enough). Trump just did both - Trump issues pardons for 3 service members accused of war crimes (ABC). Two of the servicemembers had been convicted, one was facing trial.

There have been incidents where someone had been pardoned for something, but then committed another act in the same vein, or even same conspiracy. Attorneys who work in the field spend a lot of time dickering over details for this very reason, prosecutors trying to narrow the scope and defense attorneys trying to make it as broad as possible.
 
It appears we were posting at the same time... heh.
 
Roger Stone was found guilty in a Federal Court on 7 counts. Stone and some people on right wing media are calling on trump to pardon Stone. One I saw actually calling on God to push Trump to do so. My question is if Trump does pardon Stone, can another level of government, such as a state, try him for the same crimes as the Federal courts after the pardon wipes the slate clean? Does double jeopardy apply when a person has been pardoned on the Federal level conviction in a State court? Would the State court system have to come up with crimes totally different from those used in the Federal courts?

A Presidential pardon does not prevent any state or local court from indicting or convicting Stone.

If Trump wants to pardon Stone, he has to do it before he leaves office (or is declared removed).
 
Roger Stone was found guilty in a Federal Court on 7 counts. Stone and some people on right wing media are calling on trump to pardon Stone. One I saw actually calling on God to push Trump to do so. My question is if Trump does pardon Stone, can another level of government, such as a state, try him for the same crimes as the Federal courts after the pardon wipes the slate clean? Does double jeopardy apply when a person has been pardoned on the Federal level conviction in a State court? Would the State court system have to come up with crimes totally different from those used in the Federal courts?

This is where it gets really dicey if we are being honest.

You are correct in that because this is Federal Court that gives Trump two options if he wants to get further involved. Trump has the capability to issue an election season pardon (which comes with political implications of course) or he can commute whatever sentence Stone is handed.

While Stone is facing 50 years it is unlikely he will be handed any more than 2-3 years.

No matter if Trump goes down the full pardon route or the commute route, they both technically leave the conviction on record as the final disposition of that case that received a pardon or sentence commute. So if a State brought up independent charges against Stone, the likely defense is double jeopardy but that is no longer sound argument.

*Ironically and just this past summer,* the Supreme Court allowed for an exception to double jeopardy on a 7-2 vote over Terance Gamble.

A convicted felon caught with a weapon and ended up facing Federal charges first. Got a year, then had to face State charges who tacked on another 3-4 years but as concurrent. Meaning held in one location them moved to finish the rest in some other location (probably.) The challenge got to the Supreme Court and the ruling allowed for this exception saying that even though the Constitution forbids subsequent prosecutions (double jeopardy clause) that "the federal government and the states are independent sovereigns, the court has allowed separate prosecutions of the same conduct in state and federal courts."

In the 2 justice separate descents Gorsuch, which surprised me, said "A free society does not allow its government to try the same individual for the same crime until it’s happy with the result" and then added "Unfortunately, the court today endorses a colossal exception to this ancient rule against double jeopardy."

This ruling bites Stone and Trump in the ass. In this case Trump could do absolutely nothing, Stone presumably gets 2-3 years (or something along those lines,) and the State of New York for example could run it up with a longer but concurrent sentence and pass by this 7-2 recent Supreme Court ruling. And the State sentence, time issued, would stay.
 
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