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And Now: The Case for Treason

apdst said:
The better part of a year? You just made a dubious claim of 187 days.

There is no war. We aren't at war. Ukraine isn't at war. No part of Ukraine fell because they didn't get the weapons sooner rather than later. But, they got weapons, which is more than the Obama admin can say. Did Obama commit treason?
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Well, at least 13 Ukrianian soldiers died during the delay. Is that of no account?

Thirteen Ukrainian Soldiers Died During Trump-Ordered Freeze on Military Aid
 
poweRob said:
Perhaps because during the Obama administration, the President of Ukraine was a highly corrupt Russian puppet who, when ousted by the current president, fled to Moscow.

Putin: Russia helped Yanukovych to flee Ukraine

"I will say it openly - he asked to be driven away to Russia, which we did," the Russian president said.

Waterlogged: The Mysterious Documents Ukraine’s Leader Dumped in a River on His Way out the Door

Protesters retrieved the documents from the water and set them out to dry in what was described as an airplane hangar. There, they were eagerly perused by journalists looking for evidence that would bolster the longstanding allegations of political and financial corruption by Yanukovych and his family.

The most intriguing piece of paper may be a receipt for a cash transfer of $12 million dated September 2010, about seven months after Yanukovych took office.​

That is why Obama wasn't funding Ukraine. Jesus... Every time you post I get more astonished by how little you know.
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You just supported President Trumps approach. Biden proved Ukraine was still corrupt.

Bet that wasn't your plan.
 
ocean515 said:
You just supported President Trumps approach. Biden proved Ukraine was still corrupt.

Bet that wasn't your plan.
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I prove how ignorant you are on this topic and now you do what you do and divert with lying. That's nice. Predictable too.
 
cpwill said:
That is incorrect. It was intended to pressure the Ukranian government into going after the Biden's. It was not "aid to Russia", nor would providing aid to Russia at this point in time be considered treason.

For example, were we to become aware of a plot by al-Qa'ida to launch an attack in Russia, and to pass this information along to the Russian government, we would be "aiding Russia". This would not be "treason" on the part of the people who did it, but, rather, an enactment of U.S. foreign policy.

You seem to have "disagrees with me on foreign policy" confused with "treason".



That is precisely what it is, and the more it is spread as a claim, the more it discredits by association the very real and supported charges against Trump for which he should be impeached.
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Again, I wouldn't call it hyperbole. If I headed the thread "Donald Trump Guilty of Treason", that would be hyperbole. Instead I treated it as an exercise, laying open my thoughts for a case of Treason open for debate.
I am still stuck at the opening line from the U.S. Constitution regarding Treason: Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid...
Do you see that "or" there? It's not "and". There can be no dispute whether Russia is an enemy of the U.S. when congress has approved aid to a country fighting Russia for invading their country.
 
lemmiwinx said:
50% approval is better than Obama had at this point in his presidency. And he wasn't being impeached lol!
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Funny you should mention Obama. On the same day of his first term, Obama was at 44.5% compared to Trump’s 41.2%.
2C0C9C53-AB68-4C9B-A269-5AC0E860CD43.jpg
Notice in the snapshot all the days Obama was above 50%? I’ll bet Trump wishes he could have at least 1 day above water.
 
cpwill said:
They shouldn't. They should recognize it for the dangerous action that it is, and not act similarly.

Why, you could get excited partisans shooting up congressional softball practices.
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When the majority party fights dirty, you can't demand the minority party play fair.
 
lwf said:
Obama didn't do anything impeachable. It appears that Trump may have.
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It appears they keep searching and searching trying to find something.
 
America has to accept that it has a vile man occupying our office of the Presidency, and stand up and show America and the World, that is can and will remove and imprison a malice, treasonous and corrupt President, the same as we'd expect other countries to do, and we'd be driven to demand another country remove and prosecute... Once that is done America can then restore its voice and show the world it upholds it laws and honor's its Constitution. If America fails to do that, then America is showing the world that it will not uphold the principles upon and within its own nation, and never should be or have been allowed to take stands against others nations who have had President that damage so much.
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America needs to honor the integrity it tries to promote to the world, and be of that integrity... to Remove and Prosecute Trump and charge all those politicians who aid and lend support for his Treasonous acts upon and against America and American Allied Nations and America Bilateral Relationships Nations.

America Dignity and American Integrity and America's Claim of Justice on the World Stage is at stake.... America has to use its Political System and processes to save and protect the dignity and integrity of this nation.
 
lwf said:
When the majority party fights dirty, you can't demand the minority party play fair.
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So how should Republicans respond to a Democrat shooting up a Republican softball game. Go out and kill some Democrat Representatives?

President Johnson used the FBI to target Barry Goldwater's Presidential Campaign. Time for some GOP Payback?

The IRS targeted conservative groups under Obama. Ergo Trump getting the Ukranians to target Biden is fine?



If you are so pathetic and foolish that you allow Trump to determine your morals, well, you are probably beyond helping; but you may want to consider how far you've fallen, and how dangerous it is to declare that Americans who disagree with you politically are "the enemy", to whom it is Treason to render aid.
 
element94 said:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

So, there it is, the only crime that is laid out in the United States Constitution. Can Donald J. Trump be charged with Treason Against The United States? Of course, I am talking about this in reference to his decisions with the U.S. Congress' approved aid to Ukraine.
The part that stands out to me is 'adheres to their enemies, giving them aid'. The U.S Congress approved aid was held up for 3/4 of a year by President Trump. The reason given by the WH has been concern for corruption in Ukraine. This is not the what the facts are beginning to show, with testimony from 2 firsthand witnesses, with corroboration from others under oath. The 2 firsthand witnesses' testimonies show that Trump was withholding the aid for an agreement from Ukraine to publicly declare they were investigating Joe and Hunter Biden (Joe Biden was Trump's top rival for the U.S. Presidency at the time) for corruption, once again only at Trumps request.
If indeed it could be proven at trial in the Senate that Trump withheld the aid for reasons of extorting the Ukraine government to fabricate a corruption investigation involving Joe Biden, thereby damaging Biden, his chief rival for the Presidency of the United States, how could Trump be guilty of Treason Against the United States?

'adheres to their enemies, giving them aid'

By withholding the aid for Ukraine for 3/4 of a year in its war with Russia, this would have certainly, at least, be 'giving them aid', with "them" being Russia. With all the other Trump connections, and inexplicable siding with Russia, even against his own government Intelligence, and other U.S. agencies, this seems to be worth pursuing. As I said, under those circumstances laid out above, Russia, an enemy of the United States, was aided by the President of the United States, by withholding aid to Ukraine in a time of war with Russia. You may say 'but the U.S. was not at war with Russia', but congress approved aid for Ukraine in its war with Russia thereby solidifying its interests. Aiding Ukraine in its war with Russia, an enemy of the United States, was in the interest of United States.

There may proof out there to also support 'adheres to their enemies' by pursuing Trump's myriad of connections and decisions involving Russia.

Have at it.
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You really are ate up pards.
 
element94 said:
Again, I wouldn't call it hyperbole. If I headed the thread "Donald Trump Guilty of Treason", that would be hyperbole. Instead I treated it as an exercise, laying open my thoughts for a case of Treason open for debate.
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IS TRUMP A SECRET NAZI SHAPE SHIFTING LIZARD ALIEN? LET'S CONSIDER THE EVIDENCE

....is a ridiculous thread, regardless of "let's consider the evidence" tacked onto the end.


Trump's actions were impeachable. They were not Treasonous.


I am still stuck at the opening line from the U.S. Constitution regarding Treason: Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid...
Do you see that "or" there? It's not "and". There can be no dispute whether Russia is an enemy of the U.S. when congress has approved aid to a country fighting Russia for invading their country.
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Okedoke. Where is the declaration of war? Would passing information on that AQ attack be considered treasonous? How about providing international aid for natural disaster victims inside Russia?

Again, you are conflating "I think it benefits someone I think of as an enemy" with "Treason".

I mean, if you want to talk about 'giving aid to Russia', well, Obama is - as you have repeatedly refused to deal with - def totes guilty under the formulation you have arrived at. Biden too, for that matter, as he was part of the Administration.



Remember this?

Romney Not Ready.jpg

The Democrat Party, rendering aid to our Enemy. Arrest 'em all.
 
cpwill said:
So how should Republicans respond to a Democrat shooting up a Republican softball game. Go out and kill some Democrat Representatives?

President Johnson used the FBI to target Barry Goldwater's Presidential Campaign. Time for some GOP Payback?

The IRS targeted conservative groups under Obama. Ergo Trump getting the Ukranians to target Biden is fine?

If you are so pathetic and foolish that you allow Trump to determine your morals, well, you are probably beyond helping; but you may want to consider how far you've fallen, and how dangerous it is to declare that Americans who disagree with you politically are "the enemy", to whom it is Treason to render aid.
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That "democrat" was a deranged psycho who didn't pull any levers of government. Your deranged psycho is sitting in the oval office.

When the leader of your party declares the opposition party to be the enemy of the United States, you have no standing to request that the opposition party consider you to be anything other than their enemy. If you elected a man who publicly states that he views democrats as his enemy and the enemy of the U.S. then this makes you the enemy of democrats. Until you vote him out of office, you do not get to take the moral high ground or claim any moral superiority. If Democrats want to separate you from the beliefs of Donald Trump, good on them. But they have no reason to, and you have no standing to ask for it. Once you deliberately fight dirty, you can't whine if you opponent does the same.
 
ocean515 said:
When Russia annexed Crimea, and set it's sights on Ukraine, the Obama Administration refused to provide military aid to Ukraine, despite its President Petro Poroshenko "pleading for weapons to defend his country."


Sorry, Joe: Team Obama refused to arm Ukraine at all


So perhaps you need to amend your claim, and bring Biden and Obama up on charges of treason based on the argument you are making.
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They constant confuse what Obama did to trump.
Denial fallacies is all they have.
 
element94 said:
Well, at least 13 Ukrianian soldiers died during the delay. Is that of no account?

Thirteen Ukrainian Soldiers Died During Trump-Ordered Freeze on Military Aid
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From your source:

It is impossible to say whether timely delivery of American aid would have helped any individual soldier
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Also from your source:
at least Ukrainian soldiers were killed while President Donald Trump's administration was withholding military aid from the country from mid-July to mid-September.
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Looks like you lied about that 187 days.
 
Last edited:
RealityNow said:
So, just what do you call aid in support of defensive backing for a Bilateral Relation when that relation is attacked, such a Ukraine whom Russia is at war with?

Withholding that aid... is beneficial to Russia....it does not take a wild stretch of the understanding to see.
There is already deep background of Trump and Russian collaborators... including himself and his lust for Russian money and his desperation to pander to Putin, and his obsession of doing anything with hopes that Russia will let him build something in Russia.

This is among the greatest atrocities against the United States, all for the personal business aims of Trump!!!!

Trump is a vile man, a tax cheat, a draft dodger, a money washer, a belligerent spewer, a divisive madman trying to sow divisiveness to weaken America which has long been Putin's Agenda, since Putin's anguish at the break up of the Soviet Union.

Trump promotes Divisiveness both politically and by race and ethnicity divisiveness... That is: Treasonous Acts and Conduct Against Everything American Democracy Stands for. He has attacked NATO, and the UN... both organizations Putin has pursued to weaken for since his rise to power. Trump has damaged our Diplomatic Relations and weakened America's Diplomatic Corp.... and the has damaged American Trade and Economy and caused damages on a Global Level. He has damaged the Office of the Presidency, and attacked our Congress and led an all out assault upon and against our Justice Department.

If this was any other country doing such damages, America would be calling for the imprisonment of such President.

America needs to get focused and be as responsible as other nations who have prosecuted and jailed such types. Any other nation we'd be also calling for charges against the political allies that support and backed these atrocious acts upon and against the nation and its people.
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Should Obama be tried for treason?
 
ludin said:
They constant confuse what Obama did to trump.
Denial fallacies is all they have.
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While I do admit to several faults, one I am likely to continue to struggle with is my tendency to give the benefit of the doubt to arguments presented by liberals, and assume their problem is lack of information, rather than an expression of the indoctrinated fixation on the propaganda fed to them.
 
lwf said:
When the majority party fights dirty, you can't demand the minority party play fair.
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Sounds like you're condoning violence.
 
cpwill said:
IS TRUMP A SECRET NAZI SHAPE SHIFTING LIZARD ALIEN? LET'S CONSIDER THE EVIDENCE

....is a ridiculous thread, regardless of "let's consider the evidence" tacked onto the end.


Trump's actions were impeachable. They were not Treasonous.




Okedoke. Where is the declaration of war? Would passing information on that AQ attack be considered treasonous? How about providing international aid for natural disaster victims inside Russia?

Again, you are conflating "I think it benefits someone I think of as an enemy" with "Treason".

I mean, if you want to talk about 'giving aid to Russia', well, Obama is - as you have repeatedly refused to deal with - def totes guilty under the formulation you have arrived at. Biden too, for that matter, as he was part of the Administration.



Remember this?

View attachment 67268304

The Democrat Party, rendering aid to our Enemy. Arrest 'em all.
Click to expand...

His actions aren't even impeachable.
 
apdst said:
Sounds like you're condoning violence.
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Do Republicans engage in violence against Democrats?

I am saying that as long as Donald Trump is president, no one who voted for him has any moral standing to complain about being called an enemy of democrats.
 
lwf said:
That "democrat" was a deranged psycho who didn't pull any levers of government. Your deranged psycho is sitting in the oval office.
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1. he's not "my" deranged psycho. I spent all of 2015 and half of 2016 trying to convince fellow conservatives here that he was a deranged and dangerous moron.

2. So? Your side did X. Obviously we should respond in kind.

Right? I mean, that's the logic.

When the leader of your party declares the opposition party to be the enemy of the United States, you have no standing to request that the opposition party consider you to be anything other than their enemy.
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1. Not my party, I am an independent.

2. Yes I freaking do. Just because one person commits a stupid, destructive, and dangerous act is not an excuse for others to behave likewise. "But He Did It!" is the logic my 6 year old uses.

If you elected a man who publicly states that he views democrats as his enemy and the enemy of the U.S. then this makes you the enemy of democrats
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1. I didn't vote for him

2. No it doesn't. The only person I'm aware of who has treated the other side like the enemy is when a Democrat tried to murder a bunch of Republicans, to which, I suppose, you you would say, we should respond in kind.

Until you vote him out of office, you do not get to take the moral high ground or claim any moral superiority. If Democrats want to separate you from the beliefs of Donald Trump, good on them. But they have no reason to, and you have no standing to ask for it. Once you deliberately fight dirty, you can't whine if you opponent does the same.
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So yes, what Trump did with Ukraine was completely justifiable, we should use the power of the state to go after the Democrat Presidential nominee in order to ensure he or she loses, and Republicans should start killing Democrat representatives.


No thanks. If you want to be the moral equivalent of Trump, well, that's your problem.


I've been to war. I know exactly what to do with an enemy. I've also read history, and I know generally what happens when domestic political factions begin to consider their domestic political opposition "the enemy". The two things are eventually the same.
 
cpwill said:
IS TRUMP A SECRET NAZI SHAPE SHIFTING LIZARD ALIEN? LET'S CONSIDER THE EVIDENCE

....is a ridiculous thread, regardless of "let's consider the evidence" tacked onto the end.
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:roll:


cpwill said:
Trump's actions were impeachable. They were not Treasonous,
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Maybe not, but without more evidence either way I still consider it an open question. Could Trump have had the benefit to Russia in his mind while withholding the aid? I would have no problem believing that considering his continuing behavior regarding Russia.


cpwill said:
Okedoke. Where is the declaration of war? Would passing information on that AQ attack be considered treasonous? How about providing international aid for natural disaster victims inside Russia?

Again, you are conflating "I think it benefits someone I think of as an enemy" with "Treason".

I mean, if you want to talk about 'giving aid to Russia', well, Obama is - as you have repeatedly refused to deal with - def totes guilty under the formulation you have arrived at. Biden too, for that matter, as he was part of the Administration.



Remember this?

View attachment 67268304

The Democrat Party, rendering aid to our Enemy. Arrest 'em all.
Click to expand...

Then start another thread laying out potential evidence for debate.
 
lwf said:
Do Republicans engage in violence against Democrats?

I am saying that as long as Donald Trump is president, no one who voted for him has any moral standing to complain about being called an enemy of democrats.
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Irrelevant. You are condoning violence. Be careful with that kinda crazy talk.
 
element94 said:
:roll:
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Yes. That was precisely my response.

Maybe not, but without more evidence either way I still consider it an open question
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Sure. So, technically, is the shape-shifting-lizard option.

Could Trump have had the benefit to Russia in his mind while withholding the aid
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:shrug: it's not impossible. It's simply immaterial. The President is charged with executing foreign policy on behalf of the United States. Simply because you do not line that it benefited Russia does not make that Treason, any more than it did when Obama did it.


Then start another thread laying out potential evidence for debate.
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Your claim here is only weakened by your refusal to deal with this point. It appears that you consider Trump potentially guilty of Treason not for the actions he took, but because he took them while being someone you dislike.
 
apdst said:
From your source:



Also from your source:


Looks like you lied about that 187 days.
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Which means it's also impossible to say it didn't .

Here's the timeline. I said the aid was originally planned to be released on February 25, but it was actually February 28, my mistake, so 184 nearly half a year. Not a lie, just incorrect day by 3 days. Apology accepted.

Trump’s Ukraine military aid suspension timeline is suspicious - Vox

The Trump administration initially told Congress it was releasing the aid to Ukraine on February 28. It repeated that assertion to Congress again on May 23, but failed to explain to lawmakers but struggled to explain — both publicly and to the lawmakers who approved the aid — exactly why the funds were withheld.
 
cpwill said:
Yes. That was precisely my response.



Sure. So, technically, is the shape-shifting-lizard option.



:shrug: it's not impossible. It's simply immaterial. The President is charged with executing foreign policy on behalf of the United States. Simply because you do not line that it benefited Russia does not make that Treason, any more than it did when Obama did it.




Your claim here is only weakened by your refusal to deal with this point. It appears that you consider Trump potentially guilty of Treason not for the actions he took, but because he took them while being someone you dislike.
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I've seen you inch toward the deep end over the last few posts, and now you're there. Bye.
 
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