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Burning your own flag is freedom of speech. Burning your neighbors is vandalism

Would it be reasonable for a black man to punch a white supremicist waving a noose in his face?
 
OldFatGuy said:
Not quite. I spoke of provocation for the purpose of creating violent responses. To assume or claim the response lies solely on the provoked party is hypocritical.

During the late 1930's, Hitler and his Nazis provoked violent scenarios in nations they intended to conquer, at times staging entirely fake incidents. Would you claim the onus was on the targeted nations? Extremists of the right and the left use the same tactics, here and now. I do not respect your simplistic response.
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Plain and simple. If my Legal action provokes you to do an illegal action, the problem is you.

Burning your own flag is legal. If you get pissed and either assault me for it or steal my property over it, the problem is you.
 
swing_voter said:
If you buy a flag, hang it on your porch and I burn it, that's a crime. If I buy a flag and burn it, it's not a crime. Free speech is held in such high regard in this country that a symbol many love can be treated poorly.
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As a veteran myself, i hate it when i see people burning the flag

To me it shows disrespect for ones country

But i understand it is "free speech" and so although i detest what the person is doing, who am i to say that their speech is anything different than any other type of speech

I fought for this country to allow ALL thoughts and ideas....not just the ones that i like and approve of

Same as i think all colleges should allow ALL speakers on their campuses....good, bad, and indifferent

We become stronger by listening to crap and knowing when to ignore it
 
Praxas said:
Plain and simple. If my Legal action provokes you to do an illegal action, the problem is you.

Burning your own flag is legal. If you get pissed and either assault me for it or steal my property over it, the problem is you.
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The law is not everything. And courts have discretion.
 
OldFatGuy said:
The law is not everything. And courts have discretion.
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Courts have already ruled on this issue. If you destroy property or assault someone (both illegal) due to a legal action such as expression of free speech (burning a personal flag), the person that did the illegal act is in the wrong.
 
OldFatGuy said:
None of those you state were provocateurs did so with intent to provoke violence, perhaps with the exception of the Nazis in Skokie? And no, I am arguing for responsibility for actions of violence.
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You don't know your history. Violence followed MLK where ever he went, usually by members of local law enforcement. Same with Gandhi.

But now you argue it is "intent" that makes the difference.

In other words, if you disagree with the protestor's provocative message, any violence is the protestor's fault. If you agree with the protestor, any violence is someone else's fault.
 
gdgyva said:
As a veteran myself, i hate it when i see people burning the flag

To me it shows disrespect for ones country

But i understand it is "free speech" and so although i detest what the person is doing, who am i to say that their speech is anything different than any other type of speech

I fought for this country to allow ALL thoughts and ideas....not just the ones that i like and approve of

Same as i think all colleges should allow ALL speakers on their campuses....good, bad, and indifferent

We become stronger by listening to crap and knowing when to ignore it
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I agree with you to a point. However, I do not believe that campuses should be obligated to provide a platform for those who would tear down the school itself or attack the students who attend there or promote violence against a particular group.

Burning a flag enrages you. That is exactly what burning the flag is intended to do. Same thing with kneeling during the anthem. It gets you talking about the issue, regardless of what side you come down on. Protests like that are a great antidote for mass complacency.
 
Aberration said:
Would it be reasonable for a black man to punch a white supremicist waving a noose in his face?
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It would not be reasonable since that is what a white supremacy person wants you to do. He would walk away while you are arrested.
 
independentusa said:
It would not be reasonable since that is what a white supremacy person wants you to do. He would walk away while you are arrested.
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Actually, that 'speech' is not protected. The USSC calls it "fighting words" and getting your nose bloodied as a result of taunting a black man with a noose is not 'free speech'. LINK
 
Stealers Wheel said:
I agree with you to a point. However, I do not believe that campuses should be obligated to provide a platform for those who would tear down the school itself or attack the students who attend there or promote violence against a particular group.

Burning a flag enrages you. That is exactly what burning the flag is intended to do. Same thing with kneeling during the anthem. It gets you talking about the issue, regardless of what side you come down on. Protests like that are a great antidote for mass complacency.
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How can a speaker "tear down the school itself or attack the students who attend there?"

Some students will attend, most wont when it is a "bad speaker"

If the speaker incites violence...i agree that isnt worthy of being on campus

But thoughts? ideas? even though they may be radical to you, me, and most of the population....

yeah...they should be allowed....even if only 10-20 students want to hear them speak

and i disagree with the kneeling during anthem....

it didnt get anyone talking about about "his cause"

it got people upset about the kneeling....he could have done so much better taking that cause to late night TV with his football buddies and actually got people talking and listening about the issue

instead all they talked about was the kneeling, and whether or not the owners were going to deal with it, and how the fans were going to react....and he is still out of the NFL....so in the long run....he did NO GOOD with his cause....none

just my opinion
 
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gdgyva said:
As a veteran myself, i hate it when i see people burning the flag

To me it shows disrespect for ones country

But i understand it is "free speech" and so although i detest what the person is doing, who am i to say that their speech is anything different than any other type of speech

I fought for this country to allow ALL thoughts and ideas....not just the ones that i like and approve of

Same as i think all colleges should allow ALL speakers on their campuses....good, bad, and indifferent

We become stronger by listening to crap and knowing when to ignore it
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The rise of Trump blows your theory out of the water...
 
SoCal said:
The rise of Trump blows your theory out of the water...
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how?

is this nation really any poorer than 3 years ago?

is there any damage he can do that is permanent?

i know some of you believe so, but really i dont....

unless we have a nuclear war....which i give a .0001% chance, the nation will still be here, and we will still continue on

Trump opened some peoples eyes maybe....and he has attacked the "establishment" (whatever that means to some)

He doesnt play by the rules that have been established for decades....

He is a boob, a rube, and a perrenial liar....and this too shall pass

Tell me HOW he has changed your personal life? really....because mine hasnt changed one iota because of him

my taxes may have gone up a smidgen....that is politics....
other than that...nada nothing
 
Praxas said:
Courts have already ruled on this issue. If you destroy property or assault someone (both illegal) due to a legal action such as expression of free speech (burning a personal flag), the person that did the illegal act is in the wrong.
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Courts overturn prior court decisions often. The law is not everything.
 
independentusa said:
I have seen at least two cons writing that taking a knife to the Baby Trump should be covered under free speech, but it is not. SCOTUS has spoken that when you burn your own flag it is covered by the 1st Amendment to the constitution as free speech. To desecrate your neighbors flag is a violation of the law. So when you take a knife to baby Trump you have violated the law, unless you own the balloon. It would never be covered by the 1st Amendment.
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Good point.

It's like ripping up someone's protest sign because you don't agree with what it says.


Cutting the baby Trump balloon was denying FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
You don't know your history. Violence followed MLK where ever he went, usually by members of local law enforcement. Same with Gandhi.

But now you argue it is "intent" that makes the difference.

In other words, if you disagree with the protestor's provocative message, any violence is the protestor's fault. If you agree with the protestor, any violence is someone else's fault.
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Intent does make the difference.

No, agreement or not is never justification, perhaps explanation? But to ignore the complicity of the provocateur is naive at best.

Meanwhile, hyperbole is just that. Neither MLK or Gandhi found violence wherever they delivered their messages. Reality shows both found adulation more often than not, especially in their latter years. No question both died violently for their opinions and provocations, but that does come with the territory, and was not unexpected by either.
 
Captain Adverse said:
...I have seen people burn the US Flag. It disturbs me because it is an act which demonstrates a hatred and lack of respect for our nation as a whole. But as long as that flag was purchased by or been gifted to the person burning it? It remains an act of free expression...
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As the acting WH chief of staff said, "get over it"

You shouldn't be "disturbed" by someone burning the US flag another more than taking a knee at the playing of the US national anthem.

Get off your high horse and be a little more humble.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Burning the American flag, a symbol of national pride, is an attempt to provoke reactionary responses, the more violent the better. Not dissimilar to shouting fire in a movie theater....
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No, shouting "fire" in a movie theater is NOT the same as burning a flag


...with freedom comes responsibility. Because of an idiotic provocation, people can be injured and some could die. With this in mind is burning a flag a exercise in free speech, or an example of hate and provocation for its own sake?
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Flag burning is freedom of speech

The guy that cut the Trump balloon is exactly the reason why the whistle blower's life would be under threat if his/her name were to be revealed.
 
tacomancer said:
Sure, why not. So what's your point here?
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I too eagerly await an explanation. Here's what I expect:

"The measure of man's patriotism is not whether he served in the military or domestically. It's not his beliefs and ideals and values and principles. It's not his willingness to help his fellow man. No, all of that is meaningless to the truly anointed. The measure of a man's patriotism is whether he laughs at war comedies."

It's gonna be typical, "I didn't serve but mommy loves me" BS. Just like every time a soft ass tries to measure up.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Courts overturn prior court decisions often. The law is not everything.
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Please show those "often" rulings. You can't. What you have proven is you know **** about the law.
 
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