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Is Fascism a right wing ideology?

jnug said:
If you are an avowed Democratic Socialist running on a Bernie-like set of planks, you have just told the Electorate that you are not really intending there to be any boundaries to how far you are going to push Socialist planks and agendas. That is the dif between a Democratic Socialist and a Social Democrat. You can assume some boundaries to a Social Democrat's outer limits. Just the opposite for a Democratic Socialist.

As much racial dog whistling and bull horning as DonDon has done, would he get away in a general election with saying the words "I am a racist"? I seriously doubt it. To be honest, DonDon has a better shot at getting away with that than Bernie has running a National General Election campaign in this country as a Democratic Socialist.
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I think Bernie has a good idea. Let's have the federal government take over all our little businesses and shops. After all, the federal government IS the people. And the people know how to run things better than we do. Oh, you say even business owners are people, and they should be allowed to keep their little hardware store that they started 40 years ago? Well I don't know. The people you hire in your little store aren't getting a fair deal. They get minimum wage while you're making $50k/year. Are you telling me that's fair??

We need Bernie to make everything fair. He's a smart guy.
 
jnug said:
If you are an avowed Democratic Socialist running on a Bernie-like set of planks, you have just told the Electorate that you are not really intending there to be any boundaries to how far you are going to push Socialist planks and agendas. That is the dif between a Democratic Socialist and a Social Democrat. You can assume some boundaries to a Social Democrat's outer limits. Just the opposite for a Democratic Socialist.

As much racial dog whistling and bull horning as DonDon has done, would he get away in a general election with saying the words "I am a racist"? I seriously doubt it. To be honest, DonDon has a better shot at getting away with that than Bernie has running a National General Election campaign in this country as a Democratic Socialist.
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Agreed. The label "socialist" used in any form is not likely to win a national election.
 
danielpalos said:
The Public Works Administration along with "nationalizing" other construction projects and rationing. Government is Socialism.
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If government construction projects are an example of socialism, then Eisenhower was a socialist. He started the interstate highway system.
 
Why are so many right wingers trying to rewrite history and pretend fascists are left wing?
 
danielpalos said:
Infrastructure is a "means of production" due to our Commerce Clause and our welfare clause, General.
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I see.

Then, any government program to build infrastructure is socialism. Airports, highways, bridges, railroads, water systems, all socialism and therefore bad.
 
Dittohead not! said:
I see.

Then, any government program to build infrastructure is socialism. Airports, highways, bridges, railroads, water systems, all socialism and therefore bad.
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The problem, as always, are the incentives facing the politicians and bureaucrats.

First you have to decide what to build and where to build it. Under capitalism, an airport would be built according to needs of the market. Making the airport too big or too small would reduce profits, so the investors, since they are spending their own money, would be very careful about building the airport the right size and in the right place. With socialism, what to build and where to build it is decided by politics. The result is you get bridges to nowhere or trains with very little ridership.

Under capitalism, the investors are spending their own money, so they have a big incentive to keep costs under control. Under socialism, politicians are spending taxpayer dollars, not their own. The result is massive cost overruns.

Those are just two reasons why socialism is inferior to capitalism for the production of private goods. There are many others.
 
aociswundumho said:
The problem, as always, are the incentives facing the politicians and bureaucrats.

First you have to decide what to build and where to build it. Under capitalism, an airport would be built according to needs of the market. Making the airport too big or too small would reduce profits, so the investors, since they are spending their own money, would be very careful about building the airport the right size and in the right place. With socialism, what to build and where to build it is decided by politics. The result is you get bridges to nowhere or trains with very little ridership.

Under capitalism, the investors are spending their own money, so they have a big incentive to keep costs under control. Under socialism, politicians are spending taxpayer dollars, not their own. The result is massive cost overruns.

Those are just two reasons why socialism is inferior to capitalism for the production of private goods. There are many others.
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Which explains why malls and stores are never overbuilt and have to eventually close down because of not being profitable.

How would a private entity ever build a highway, a railway, or any other such bit of infrastructure?
 
The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003

Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt recently wrote an article about fascism ("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page 20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. He calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The excerpt is in accordance with the magazine's policy.

The 14 characteristics are:

  1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
  2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
  3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
  4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
  5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
  6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
  7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
  8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
  9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
  10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .
  11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
  12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
  13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
  14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
 
Dans La Lune said:
The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003
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I'm glad you posted this, it really shows how fascism is just a branch of socialism. Let's go through the list, and see how many are exclusive to fascism:

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia.
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Many socialist countries have done the same thing. The USSR during and after WW2. Mao was also a nationalist. North Korea today. Under socialism the state is always supreme, so nationalism is consistent with this core value.

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
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Just like any other socialist country, obviously.

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause.
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e.g. Stalin scapegoating and murdering Kulaks. Socialists are experts at scapegoating groups of people, just like Bernie scapegoats wealthy people today in the US.

Supremacy of the Military.
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Covered under nationalism. It's not uncommon in socialist countries.

Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
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Not exclusive to fascism. From here:

"In the Soviet Union, homosexuality was a crime punishable by prison and hard labor, and Stalinist anti-gay policies persisted throughout the 60s and 70s."

Remember, socialists are collectivists. They ignore the individual and think only in terms of groups.

Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
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No different than in socialist countries, which always control the media, e.g. Pravda

Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
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This is wrong. Mussolini was an atheist:

"Religion is man-made to assist in controlling the weak minded individuals because during times of atrocity and despair they feel strength in numbers." --Benito Mussolini


Corporate Power is Protected
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No, fascists control the means of production just like all socialists. Corporate power is not protected. In the end private firms end up being controlled by the state, just like in any other socialist country.

From Time, 1939:

"Most cruel joke of all, however, has been played by Hitler & Co. on those German capitalists and small businessmen who once backed National Socialism as a means of saving Germany's bourgeois economic structure from radicalism. The Nazi credo that the individual belongs to the state also applies to business. Some businesses have been confiscated outright, on others what amounts to a capital tax has been levied. Profits have been strictly controlled. Some idea of the increasing Governmental control and interference in business could be deduced from the fact that 80% of all building and 50% of all industrial orders in Germany originated last year with the Government. Hard-pressed for foodstuffs as well as funds, the Nazi regime has taken over large estates and in many instances collectivized agriculture, a procedure fundamentally similar to Russian Communism.

Again, fascists are socialists. In the end, they control the means of production, just like all socialists.

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
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Noam Chomsky's personal hero Pol Pot murdered intellectuals by the thousands.

Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws.
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Oh, the NKVD didn't have "almost limitless power to enforce laws"?

As anyone can see, fascism is just socialism with a nationalist bent.
 
aociswundumho said:
I'm glad you posted this, it really shows how fascism is just a branch of socialism. Let's go through the list, and see how many are exclusive to fascism:



Many socialist countries have done the same thing. The USSR during and after WW2. Mao was also a nationalist. North Korea today. Under socialism the state is always supreme, so nationalism is consistent with this core value.



Just like any other socialist country, obviously.



e.g. Stalin scapegoating and murdering Kulaks. Socialists are experts at scapegoating groups of people, just like Bernie scapegoats wealthy people today in the US.



Covered under nationalism. It's not uncommon in socialist countries.



Not exclusive to fascism. From here:

"In the Soviet Union, homosexuality was a crime punishable by prison and hard labor, and Stalinist anti-gay policies persisted throughout the 60s and 70s."

Remember, socialists are collectivists. They ignore the individual and think only in terms of groups.



No different than in socialist countries, which always control the media, e.g. Pravda



This is wrong. Mussolini was an atheist:

"Religion is man-made to assist in controlling the weak minded individuals because during times of atrocity and despair they feel strength in numbers." --Benito Mussolini




No, fascists control the means of production just like all socialists. Corporate power is not protected. In the end private firms end up being controlled by the state, just like in any other socialist country.

From Time, 1939:

"Most cruel joke of all, however, has been played by Hitler & Co. on those German capitalists and small businessmen who once backed National Socialism as a means of saving Germany's bourgeois economic structure from radicalism. The Nazi credo that the individual belongs to the state also applies to business. Some businesses have been confiscated outright, on others what amounts to a capital tax has been levied. Profits have been strictly controlled. Some idea of the increasing Governmental control and interference in business could be deduced from the fact that 80% of all building and 50% of all industrial orders in Germany originated last year with the Government. Hard-pressed for foodstuffs as well as funds, the Nazi regime has taken over large estates and in many instances collectivized agriculture, a procedure fundamentally similar to Russian Communism.

Again, fascists are socialists. In the end, they control the means of production, just like all socialists.



Noam Chomsky's personal hero Pol Pot murdered intellectuals by the thousands.



Oh, the NKVD didn't have "almost limitless power to enforce laws"?

As anyone can see, fascism is just socialism with a nationalist bent.
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Wow you really have drunk the kool-ade
 
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