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With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Respond?

Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

D_NATURED said:
Imagine that, a rightie blaming schools. When I think of fascism, it is most CERTAINLY with some context of history. The schools didn't fail me, I came out of there refusing to box up my opinions in neat packages for easy denial. I learned enough from the soft-sold American story to know there is a dark heart that is defended, mostly, by the right wing today. It must especially be a point of privilege to make the same mistakes that fascist assholes from the past made and pretend you're something new. To your victims, the name is unimportant.

Fascism is marked by its privilege for a few with money being directly represented in the government, its demonization of one or more minorities, its authoritarianism and violence. I use it as freely as when democrats are called "socialists" by conservatives or by themselves, because they want to regulate and control the money. It's really just two sides of the same political coin. Property rights verses human rights. Blah blah blah. When humans have too many rights, there ceases to be property. When property rights are taken to their full potential, there ceases to be anything human. We become a commodity. It's an easy choice, especially for the poor.

You're right that many Americans have no concept of what fascism is. They think THEY invented the goose step. No, the American right is just doing what the undeserving of wealth and power have always done. Abuse it. That abuse is the foundation upon which fascism, and crony capitalism (republicanism) rely. Deny if you like. I know what time it is.
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Trump is, as was Hitler, a rabble rousing iconoclast. If he existed in a fledgling democracy he could well end up a dictator. The hallmarks are there. A minority scapegoat, a coterie of sycophants, to mention a few. Thank god we are not a fledgling democracy! The courts, congress, and our cherished institutions are the bulwark against the worst of Trumps excesses, and the ballot box will put an end to him.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

D_NATURED said:
Imagine that, a rightie blaming schools. When I think of fascism,
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No it's really because you have no earthly idea what fascism is. The fact that you're not hunted down and executed for this post proves you're not under a fascist regime.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

Glowpun said:
It certainly looks that some Trump fanatics like Trump continue to live in a fantasy world completely removed from reality.

This fellow chooses to ignore facts and reality when such facts and reality are contrary to his fantasy. Nothing else be said.
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Oh absolutely - the TDS fanatics have been falling for every Democrat Party CT since 2016.

The first step to solving a problem is recognizing you have it - good luck! Indeed.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

CLAX1911 said:
No it's really because you have no earthly idea what fascism is. The fact that you're not hunted down and executed for this post proves you're not under a fascist regime.
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Saying Trump is a fascist and saying he's successful at making the whole country run by his tyranny are two different things. Given the option, he most certainly would have me executed. He wants total (as in totalitarian) control and anyone who disagrees with him or his tactics are "scum". Wake the **** up and quit making excuses.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

Linc said:
Kaiser Family Foundation — Cook Political Report — MN, WI, MI, PA —

digs deep into real issues — as well as polls and approvals v. disapprovals
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Yes - denial now.

But what happens after Trump wins?
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

Olddemocrat said:
Trump is, as was Hitler, a rabble rousing iconoclast. If he existed in a fledgling democracy he could well end up a dictator. The hallmarks are there. A minority scapegoat, a coterie of sycophants, to mention a few. Thank god we are not a fledgling democracy! The courts, congress, and our cherished institutions are the bulwark against the worst of Trumps excesses, and the ballot box will put an end to him.
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Indeed, if the U.S. were the Weimer Republic of 1920s Germany, we would be toast by now. 200+ years of democratic tradition has saved this country so far.

But even democracy in this country could fail if Trump survives the 2020 election. The way Trump is currently undermining the FBI and CIA is deeply disturbing. What bothers me even more is how the Justice Dept is no longer an independent institution under Trump. That is dangerous as hell.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

jnug said:
Thread title:With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Respond?

Ah yes, another from the apparent bottomless pit of loaded question, propagandizing DP thread titles. Somebody in St. Pete, Russia must chucking them out in droves.
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Agreed, but I'd say Moscow rather than St. Petersburg, which is a city much closer to Western European culture. I think the good folks in Saint Petersburg are probably ashamed of what the people in Russia's capital city do. Confessedly, my belief is probably my bias, as I haven't been to either city (but would love to visit St. Petersburg, a goal of mine I hope to fulfill relatively soon). Oh well, why am I saying this? Totally off-topic and uncalled for, I know you're just using good humor and like I said I agree with you.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

Olddemocrat said:
Trump is, as was Hitler, a rabble rousing iconoclast. If he existed in a fledgling democracy he could well end up a dictator. The hallmarks are there. A minority scapegoat, a coterie of sycophants, to mention a few. Thank god we are not a fledgling democracy! The courts, congress, and our cherished institutions are the bulwark against the worst of Trumps excesses, and the ballot box will put an end to him.
Click to expand...

I'm not as optimistic. I think Trump has successfully undermined out system of checks and balances, and has started very dangerous precedents that might become business as usual from now on. And first, I'm not sure that Trump will lose. Second, even if he does, if it's in any way close, we might see appeals and reversals with the backing of a biased Supreme Court, like happened to Al Gore. And third, no, our institutions are doing nothing. Sure, the House is trying but the House is only one part of the bicameral Congress, and the other part won't fulfill its constitutional duty and will exonerate Trump no matter what. The GOP that accepted a bipartisan process to oust one of their own, Richard Nixon, is long gone. This current GOP is just Trump's rubber stamp.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

D_NATURED said:
I don't know, I guess they'll form the circular firing squad as usual. The real question is, when Trump's reckless fiscal mismanagement crashes the economy, as it certainly will, will you be man enough to go away in shame? Or, will you blame liberals for your party's incompetence...like usual?
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The government has mastered fiscal mismanagement for decades. Blaming one party or the other should be considered fruitless. Hey, if that is what you think, keep thinking it.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

Yakshi said:
“Maybe if I make a fantasy post, reality will change to lessen my impotent rage.”

*Giggles, farts, starts typing*
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Thank you for sharing your process.

But did you have a comment on the thread topic?
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

D_NATURED said:
We'll respond when the sound of our celebrating a win wakes you from your blissful dream, with you and Trump running towards each other in slow motion, arms wide. Our response will be, "Hey, pal, quit crying. Fascism will return in another eight years".
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Did you say something similar just before Hillary Clinton lost the election to the one you loathe?
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

3leftsdoo said:
O my...

Well, some folks are in for a rude awakening to be sure.

But the question remains:

What will the Democrats do when it all blows up in their faces?
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I think they will all join up with antifa.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

3leftsdoo said:
More resist, disrupt, destroy?

No clean-up of the crime scene that the party has been since Hillary & her crew wrecked it in 2016?

Are there any adults with any power in the party who can staunch the hemorrhaging?

Gabbard is outstanding, but her calm & ethical gravitas has been thoroughly rejected by the Jacobin lunatics who control the party, and the rank & file have been told an endless string of ever more absurd lies to discourage their support of her.

Is the Democrat Party doomed as surely as the Jacobin and Whig?
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There is no Democrat Party.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

D_NATURED said:
Saying Trump is a fascist and saying he's successful at making the whole country run by his tyranny are two different things.
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so fascism isn't tyrannical?

Trump is a fascist to grossly misunderstand fascism.

Given the option, he most certainly would have me executed. He wants total (as in totalitarian) control and anyone who disagrees with him or his tactics are "scum". Wake the **** up and quit making excuses.
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You exist in an alternate reality.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

CLAX1911 said:
so fascism isn't tyrannical?

Trump is a fascist to grossly misunderstand fascism.

You exist in an alternate reality.
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I actually don't like using the term because it does not have an accepted meaning. We all know it's something bad, but there is no definition of it other than comparing some belief or system to 'fascism' in Italy and Germany, which were different in many ways, and changed over time. That idiot Jonah Goldberg describes it as left wing, but everyone else describes it as far right wing. It's generally understood to be nationalist and right wing and authoritarian, but I have no idea what it means beyond that.

The best thing I've read on the confusion is Orwell. Key parts IMO bolded....

George Orwell: What is Fascism?

Yet underneath all this mess there does lie a kind of buried meaning. To begin with, it is clear that there are very great differences, some of them easy to point out and not easy to explain away, between the régimes called Fascist and those called democratic. Secondly, if ‘Fascist’ means ‘in sympathy with Hitler’, some of the accusations I have listed above are obviously very much more justified than others. Thirdly, even the people who recklessly fling the word ‘Fascist’ in every direction attach at any rate an emotional significance to it. By ‘Fascism’ they mean, roughly speaking, something cruel, unscrupulous, arrogant, obscurantist, anti-liberal and anti-working-class. Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come.

But Fascism is also a political and economic system. Why, then, cannot we have a clear and generally accepted definition of it? Alas! we shall not get one — not yet, anyway. To say why would take too long, but basically it is because it is impossible to define Fascism satisfactorily without making admissions which neither the Fascists themselves, nor the Conservatives, nor Socialists of any colour, are willing to make. All one can do for the moment is to use the word with a certain amount of circumspection and not, as is usually done, degrade it to the level of a swearword.
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Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

JasperL said:
I actually don't like using the term because it does not have an accepted meaning. We all know it's something bad, but there is no definition of it other than comparing some belief or system to 'fascism' in Italy and Germany, which were different in many ways. That idiot Jonah Goldberg describes it as left wing, but everyone else describes it as far right wing. It's generally understood to be nationalist and right wing and authoritarian, but I have no idea what it means beyond that.
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Have you looked it up?
The Wikipedia article describes it as "a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy"

Fascism - Wikipedia

I agree with that definition.

If you click on the words "authoritarian"it links to another article that says "Authoritarianism is a form of government characterized by strong central power and limited political freedoms."

Authoritarianism - Wikipedia

Which I also agree with.

Governments like the Nazi government or the Italian government fit those examples.


The best thing I've read on the confusion is Orwell. Key parts IMO bolded....

George Orwell: What is Fascism?
Click to expand...

I think a lot of it is the misuse of the word to describe political adversaries. It is like when the conservatives suggest the left is communist.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

CLAX1911 said:
Have you looked it up?
The Wikipedia article describes it as "a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy"

Fascism - Wikipedia

I agree with that definition.

If you click on the words "authoritarian"it links to another article that says "Authoritarianism is a form of government characterized by strong central power and limited political freedoms."

Authoritarianism - Wikipedia

Which I also agree with.

Governments like the Nazi government or the Italian government fit those examples.

I think a lot of it is the misuse of the word to describe political adversaries. It is like when the conservatives suggest the left is communist.
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Yes, I've looked it up and said, "It's generally understood to be nationalist and right wing and authoritarian, but I have no idea what it means beyond that."

And if that's what it is, we can use those terms, which do have meanings we can fairly easily describe. That's what I do at any rate. If I think someone or some thing is right wing authoritarianism, I just call it that. Or I call it nationalism, which as I see it is almost invariably in practice right wing and authoritarian, but that's another issue - nationalism....

FWIW, here's another wiki entry and it is a good illustration of the problem. I'll just quote from the table of contents.

Definitions of fascism - Wikipedia

Contents
1 By fascist thinkers and movements
1.1 Benito Mussolini
1.2 Sergio Panunzio
1.3 Charles Maurras

2 By scholars
2.1 Umberto Eco
2.2 Emilio Gentile
2.3 A. James Gregor
2.4 Roger Griffin
2.5 F.A. Hayek
2.6 Dimitri Kitsikis
2.7 John Lukacs
2.8 Ernst Nolte
2.9 Kevin Passmore
2.10 Robert Paxton
2.11 Stanley G. Payne
2.12 Zeev Sternhell
2.13 John Weiss

3 By Marxists
3.1 Georgi Dimitrov
3.2 Leon Trotsky
3.3 Clara Zetkin

4 By other antifascists
4.1 George Orwell
4.2 Franklin D. Roosevelt
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That's roughly 21 different views on what "fascism" means. If a person needs to read and then evaluate that many different definitions to understand a term, it's not very useful in conversation. If I say someone is a "fascist" what do I mean by that? Who knows, which is why I don't think I've ever called anyone that term and meant it seriously as anything other than a throwaway insult for a right wing asshole, which is rare if I've ever done it, because I myself don't know what it really means.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

JasperL said:
Yes, I've looked it up and said, "It's generally understood to be nationalist and right wing and authoritarian, but I have no idea what it means beyond that."
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It didn't say that though. It said "far right authoritarian ultranationalism."
And if that's what it is, we can use those terms, which do have meanings we can fairly easily describe. That's what I do at any rate. If I think someone or some thing is right wing authoritarianism, I just call it that. Or I call it nationalism, which as I see it is almost invariably in practice right wing and authoritarian, but that's another issue - nationalism....
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Nationalism isn't a bad thing it's just when it's taken to the extreme it can lead to war. Like world War one.
FWIW, here's another wiki entry and it is a good illustration of the problem. I'll just quote from the table of contents.

Definitions of fascism - Wikipedia



That's roughly 21 different views on what "fascism" means. If a person needs to read and then evaluate that many different definitions to understand a term, it's not very useful in conversation. If I say someone is a "fascist" what do I mean by that? Who knows, which is why I don't think I've ever called anyone that term and meant it seriously as anything other than a throwaway insult for a right wing asshole, which is rare if I've ever done it, because I myself don't know what it really means.
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Well it's really what all of those things have in common that is fascism
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

JasperL said:
Yes, I've looked it up and said, "It's generally understood to be nationalist and right wing and authoritarian, but I have no idea what it means beyond that."
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It didn't say that though. It said "far right authoritarian ultranationalism."
And if that's what it is, we can use those terms, which do have meanings we can fairly easily describe. That's what I do at any rate. If I think someone or some thing is right wing authoritarianism, I just call it that. Or I call it nationalism, which as I see it is almost invariably in practice right wing and authoritarian, but that's another issue - nationalism....
Click to expand...
Nationalism isn't a bad thing it's just when it's taken to the extreme it can lead to war. Like world War one.
FWIW, here's another wiki entry and it is a good illustration of the problem. I'll just quote from the table of contents.

Definitions of fascism - Wikipedia



That's roughly 21 different views on what "fascism" means. If a person needs to read and then evaluate that many different definitions to understand a term, it's not very useful in conversation. If I say someone is a "fascist" what do I mean by that? Who knows, which is why I don't think I've ever called anyone that term and meant it seriously as anything other than a throwaway insult for a right wing asshole, which is rare if I've ever done it, because I myself don't know what it really means.
Click to expand...

Well it's really what all of those things have in common that is fascism
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

CLAX1911 said:
It didn't say that though. It said "far right authoritarian ultranationalism."
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And the difference between "far right" versus "right wing" and "ultranationalism" versus "nationalism" is what, exactly? You can't say except for maybe you know it when you see it, which means the definition is up to you and not rooted in some objective definition that we can both point to and agree on.

Nationalism isn't a bad thing it's just when it's taken to the extreme it can lead to war. Like world War one.
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I'll save that for another thread.

Well it's really what all of those things have in common that is fascism
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Which is what exactly? What do those 21 different definitions have in common, and why limit it to that when very learned people who have studied "fascism" believe it means something more than 3 or 4 terms that if fascism means that, we can use those terms directly, versus in this cloak of "fascism?" For example, when it comes to an economic system, I think of "fascism" as encompassing what we might call corporatism or crony capitalism, but definitely means there is some partnership between big business (versus small business) and the state. Well, hell, that's our system in lots of ways. So is our economic system "fascist?" or veering into "fascism?" Who the hell knows?

Do what you want, but I avoid it because we cannot agree on what it means. This thread is one of a hundred or more disputes I've seen on DP over the years.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

JasperL said:
And the difference between "far right" versus "right wing" and "ultranationalism" versus "nationalism" is what, exactly?
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well do you think there is a difference between George Bush and Mussolini? I would consider that the difference between far right and right wing.

someone who tries to buy products made in America that's a nationalist, a Serbian assassinated archduke Ferdinand that's an ultra-nationalist
You can't say except for maybe you know it when you see it, which means the definition is up to you and not rooted in some objective definition that we can both point to and agree on.
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actually I did just say, it's using examples, but I think it's definitive at least in that context.



Which is what exactly?
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far-right authoritarianism and ultra nationalism.
What do those 21 different definitions have in common,
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I'm sorry I didn't see a list of definitions I saw list of people.
and why limit it to that when very learned people who have studied "fascism" believe it means something more than 3 or 4 terms that if fascism means that, we can use those terms directly, versus in this cloak of "fascism?"
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because fascism has a meaning and it's a broader term.
For example, when it comes to an economic system, I think of "fascism" as encompassing what we might call corporatism or crony capitalism, but definitely means there is some partnership between big business (versus small business) and the state.
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that's an oligopoly or an oligopsony. That has nothing to do with fascism.
Well, hell, that's our system in lots of ways. So is our economic system "fascist?" or veering into "fascism?" Who the hell knows?
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fascism is not an economic system that's an oligopoly.
Do what you want, but I avoid it because we cannot agree on what it means. This thread is one of a hundred or more disputes I've seen on DP over the years.
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I use it when it's appropriate.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

JustHanging said:
Exactly!

The rest of the world will continue to laugh their asses off at The Twumpy Clown Show, for four more seasons.

This guy is more corrupt than cartoon bad guys, he's a billionaire who is so greedy he literally takes money from kids with cancer:

How Donald Trump Shifted Kids-Cancer Charity Money Into His Business

Trump has those Christian values and principles down pat, no wonder Evangelicals support him so steadfastly. :lamo

He's the best advertisement for atheism, ever.
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4 more seasons indeed.
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

Trump said:
More of the same.
Pounding the table instead of the law. Extra hard
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When you do not have the law, the facts, or reason in your favor, what else can you do?
 
Re: With The Impeachment Hoax Doomed & Trump About To Win A Second Term, How Will The Democrats Resp

JasperL said:
There is no Democrat Party.
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I'm not a member of an organized political party. I'm a Democrat.
Will Rogers
 
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