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Reportedly democrats have come up with 3 articles of impeachment

akyron said:
What allegations?

We have the official record.

Why do I require a corrupt politician or cnn to tell me what we can read for ourselves?
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Indeed, but you misunderstand the purpose of the hypothetical question.

The thread that quote came from is discussing unwavering loyalty to Pres. Trump. I'm not interested in why you believe he's innocent so much as I am in whether the allegations are serious enough that they'd cost him your vote if, hypothetically, you believed them to be true.
 
Logical1 said:
Reports say that democrats are going to charge President Trump with 3 articles of impeachment. After listening to all the nonsense from Schiff and his gang of liars I can reliably guess what they are.

1) We hate Trump.

2) Trump is draining our swamp.

3) Trump made democrats cry.
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Devastatingly uninformed and ignorant of facts. There's going to be a painful awakening coming for you, and it's right around the corner.
 
ludin said:
leftist have become the unconstitutional party of accusations = guilty and you must prove yourself innocent.
they are bringing back witch trial nonsense all over again.

the witch trials were based on nothing more than pure speculation and accusation.
the person had to prove that they were not a witch. 13 some people were executed and more than that died in jail.
hundreds were arrested and thrown in jail before the entire thing came to a stop.

hundreds of lives were ruined and families destroyed all due to a group of girls that were bored on a winters evening.

the leftist of this country have now circled back around to this same thing. just point the finger and accuse and make the person
prove their innocence. 100% unconstitutional and 100% un-american.
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If men's lives are destroyed once all the evidence is heard, I don't have a spec of sympathy for any of them. They're all traitors to this country in my opinion.
 
nota bene said:
What that would prove is that the Senate voted 51 to 49 to convict.
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I take it then you do not feel the impeachment process bears much relevance to guilt or innocence. How much evidence would you require to make an individual judgment?
 
ludin said:
then why haven't they done it yet?
PS he will be found innocent so there you go.
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He will never be found innocent...He will either be relieved of his office, or not.
 
JMR said:
I take it then you do not feel the impeachment process bears much relevance to guilt or innocence. How much evidence would you require to make an individual judgment?
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All of it.
 
nota bene said:
All of it.
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Ah, the calling of every employee of every government department to testify to provide ALL of the evidence? That is the plan of some GOP members. Should slow the process down quite a bit.

My view is that with all the legal minds sitting in Congress and their lawyers, whatever Articles of Impeachment are drawn up will be factual. The "evidence" will be shared by everyone involved. The Senate will decide whether the evidence calls for removal. The public has for all purposes already made their mind up about what the fair outcome will be. The evidence of manipulating a foreign government is overwhelming, and admitted to by Trump, Mulvaney, Guiliani. The only out Trump now has is to throw someone else under the bus, or continue to malign any and all accusers until every American is so disgusted we cease to exist as a country any longer. IMO, that outcome wouldn't bother Trump one bit. Would probably be good for his business.
 
JMR said:
Ah, the calling of every employee of every government department to testify to provide ALL of the evidence? That is the plan of some GOP members. Should slow the process down quite a bit.

My view is that with all the legal minds sitting in Congress and their lawyers, whatever Articles of Impeachment are drawn up will be factual. The "evidence" will be shared by everyone involved. The Senate will decide whether the evidence calls for removal. The public has for all purposes already made their mind up about what the fair outcome will be. The evidence of manipulating a foreign government is overwhelming, and admitted to by Trump, Mulvaney, Guiliani. The only out Trump now has is to throw someone else under the bus, or continue to malign any and all accusers until every American is so disgusted we cease to exist as a country any longer. IMO, that outcome wouldn't bother Trump one bit. Would probably be good for his business.
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Well, there you go--hyperbole at its "finest."
 
Logical1 said:
Reports say that democrats are going to charge President Trump with 3 articles of impeachment. After listening to all the nonsense from Schiff and his gang of liars I can reliably guess what they are.

1) We hate Trump.

2) Trump is draining our swamp.

3) Trump made democrats cry.
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So did you ever find a source for those reports? Are should we just assume you made it up?
 
nota bene said:
The "until we cease to exist as a country" part.
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Fair enough if that is your opinion. I am pretty concerned about the chasm between citizens, and the ever escalating hateful rhetoric from POTUS encouraging it. Also threats of civil war, and people taking up arms if Trump is turned out, one way or another.

Most of my family is Republican. I have no dislike of Republicans...but cannot fathom why rational people would support such an obvious incompetent and ill behaved individual. Surely the GOP has better options than Trump. The decision to stand by him is inexcusable, IMO.
 
JMR said:
Fair enough if that is your opinion. I am pretty concerned about the chasm between citizens, and the ever escalating hateful rhetoric from POTUS encouraging it. Also threats of civil war, and people taking up arms if Trump is turned out, one way or another.

Most of my family is Republican. I have no dislike of Republicans...but cannot fathom why rational people would support such an obvious incompetent and ill behaved individual. Surely the GOP has better options than Trump. The decision to stand by him is inexcusable, IMO.
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I agreed with everything you said until your last sentence, which demonstrates what part of the problem is.
 
nota bene said:
I agreed with everything you said until your last sentence, which demonstrates what part of the problem is.
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In you opinion it demonstrates that. There are standards that Americans have a right to expect from their elected officials, and when one falls this short of the bar it's not OK to look the other way, because of tax breaks, or judges, or walls, etc.. The GOP has effectively prohibited any attempt to primary Trump.....interesting take on democracy....so what will be your choice? What new lows do you imagine him achieving in a second term? Is he going to suddenly become presidential? So if standing by him is in fact excusable...what would be one excuse? I'm asking a serious question.
 
haymarket said:
I just turned 70 this summer. I am sad to say I have lived long enough to see a totally criminal thug in the office of the Presidency and have seen his apologists and enablers willingly turn their head to his criminal actions and excuse them.

It has become no longer a case of how you can ignore the truth. The situation is now how you can continue to call yourself an American when you excuse a obvious criminal and you will not enforce the Constitution?

We have lost our government.
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Dude, that happened in '96. Why weren't you paying attention?
 
nota bene said:
The "until we cease to exist as a country" part.
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If US military aid is determined by domestic political favors conducted by foreign countries, we have no representation.
 
JMR said:
In you opinion it demonstrates that. There are standards that Americans have a right to expect from their elected officials, and when one falls this short of the bar it's not OK to look the other way, because of tax breaks, or judges, or walls, etc.. The GOP has effectively prohibited any attempt to primary Trump.....interesting take on democracy....so what will be your choice? What new lows do you imagine him achieving in a second term? Is he going to suddenly become presidential? So if standing by him is in fact excusable...what would be one excuse? I'm asking a serious question.
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Yes, obviously my opinion. :roll: I also understand that you cannot fathom why rational people would support Trump, yet many rational people do. And one of the problems here is that people like you are unable to accept that others hold opinions divergent from yours and that this is "inexcusable."
 
OpportunityCost said:
Dude, that happened in '96. Why weren't you paying attention?
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We do not lose our government because one incident is not decided the way you want it to be decided. It is a long and ongoing process of decay and deterioration. That has not been happening since 96.
 
Logical1 said:
Reports say that democrats are going to charge President Trump with 3 articles of impeachment. After listening to all the nonsense from Schiff and his gang of liars I can reliably guess what they are.

1) We hate Trump.

2) Trump is draining our swamp.

3) Trump made democrats cry.
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Still waiting for your source for these reports. Why can't you share where you got these reports from? I am sure you did not just make them up...:roll:
 
haymarket said:
We do not lose our government because one incident is not decided the way you want it to be decided. It is a long and ongoing process of decay and deterioration. That has not been happening since 96.
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So phony. Everything you described occurred in '96 but he was your party's President, so it didn't matter. Come back with a genuine argument besides tribal butthurt.
 
gdgyva said:
BULL ****ING ****

the standards should be the same no matter what.....PERIOD

doesnt matter what the case, or who the defendant or person being charged is

you are innocent until PROVEN GUILTY....period

otherwise we lose the standards of which our entire justice system is built....

yes, the american people can look at the evidence and decide "does this warrant impeachment, and should this man be thrown out of office"

and if so, they should force their representatives in the house and senate to do their damn jobs

if not....then this whole thing is just more partisan politic bull****
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Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is a standard only applicable to criminal trials. It has nothing to do with the purely political impeachment process. It makes even less sense when you talk about a member of the public forming their opinion. Is a judge going to materialize in their bedroom and instruct them on what reasonable doubt is?

The concept of not assuming someone is guilty because you want them to be is a nice one, and I'm not saying to do that. But it is equally wrong to insist that with Trump we must honor a standard not applicable to the process.
 
nota bene said:
I think a lot of people are waiting for evidence, Haymarket.
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People who are honestly waiting for evidence do not declare each piece of evidence to come out to be "not evidence", then insist on being shown evidence. There's a ton of evidence already. As mentioned here....

haymarket said:
Nota - I do not know you so I will not talk about you or something personally mean. You do not deserve that. But I will say this - there is more evidence against Trump than against Charles Manson. You have the Trump hone call. You have the Mulvaney admission. You have testimony from many Trump employees to Congress that he did it. Evidence is in abundance. And anybody who pretends otherwise is simply playing ostrich and I am sick and tired of such unpatriotic activity.
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So how is all that stuff not evidence, nota?

Or might it be time to to say "ok, it's evidence" but then pivot to invent a personal standard for what things must be evidence of in order for it to count? I wouldn't do that since the framers drafted the constitution such that there is no judicial review of conviction on articles of impeachment. They used the term "high crimes and misdemeanors," which they did not define because it had a common meaning then: corrupt acts (not "crimes" and certainly not "crimes found in the U.S. code") in the attaining and exercising of office.

Well, the whole Ukraine thing is about holding onto office by winning again in 2020. And there is indeed more than enough evidence that Trump withheld congressionally approved aid for Ukraine to try to get Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden Jr., in turn Biden Sr. - and even made a meeting pre-conditioned on that. Tons of people were fully aware of this. The only people denying it are Trump, Trump's inner circle, and Trumpists.



But you don't even attempt so much as to argue why withholding congressionally approved aid in order to coerce a foreign power to dig up dirt on a potential political rival is not a "corrupt act". You just leave it at an unsupported claim that there is no evidence and that thus, you are "waiting" for evidence.
 
nota bene said:
Yes, obviously my opinion. :roll: I also understand that you cannot fathom why rational people would support Trump, yet many rational people do. And one of the problems here is that people like you are unable to accept that others hold opinions divergent from yours and that this is "inexcusable."
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I did ask what reason you would have to support Trump. You only answer that rational people do.

I completely accept that people have divergent opinions.. I just assume we share a mutual understanding of civil behavior, and decorum fitting the presidency. Perhaps not.
 
OpportunityCost said:
So phony. Everything you described occurred in '96 but he was your party's President, so it didn't matter. Come back with a genuine argument besides tribal butthurt.
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You made all this nonsense up out of your own imagination.
 
the 3 articles of impeachment

1. Sanders
2.Warren
3. Biden

Whew boy - if that was my team I'd make up **** to impeach the guy too!
Laffriot
 
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