The rejection of "-isms" and team politics

Good4Nothin said:

What?? I said thinking carefully about politics takes time, so most people won't do it. I wasn't talking about responding to a post.

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Etallium’s post was all about having focused political discussions as opposed to the generalized “all liberal, bad” and “all conservative, good”, posted in a political debate forum, so ....

lwf said:

Well said. It's that tribalism that has so infected the right. There is literally nothing one's tribe can do to shake one's loyalty if their fear of other tribes is potent enough. I'm reminded of a guy I read about who was married to an illegal immigrant. He voted for Trump because he didn't think that she could be deported since she was married to an American. (He didn't bother to seek out a Green Card for her.) Sure enough, she was promptly deported once Trump was elected. He was heartbroken over it during his interview, but at the end said he still supported Donald Trump.

I often compare people like this to Hobbits in my mind who simply don't know any better. It helps me keep from judging them too harshly.

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Yeah, I remember a few of those right after trump was elected and I shook my head and wondered how a person could still support a man who just deported their spouse? I don't feel sorry for them, I used to but not any longer. Stupid is as stupid does.

bongsaway said:

What? Of course not, it's being held back so the freaking greedy politicians who are paid by corporate america do what corporate america wants and damn the population. It's all about money and the political decisions it can buy. When eight people around the world have more money than forty percent of the earth's population, something is wrong.

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That has nothing to do with right vs left. Everyone is, or should be, opposed to corruption.

RaleBulgarian said:

Etallium’s post was all about having focused political discussions as opposed to the generalized “all liberal, bad” and “all conservative, good”, posted in a political debate forum, so ....

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Yes, and I agree with the OP. But that takes a lot of careful thought, and most people don't have time or don't want to work that hard at thinking.

Politics is simplified into left vs right, which is actually nonsensical. I agree we should get rid of that obsolete dichotomy. But we will always have to simplify.

RaleBulgarian said:

You make many good points (although I disagree on your 3rd party vote not wasted assertion).

Welcome aboard!

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I'm curious to hear more follow up from you on your reasoning. I actually do agree with you, that on a purely pragmatic level that this can have the outcome that is less desirable under the current circumstances. However, you can make this argument about any voting procedure. As a leftist in a Red state, why should I even go vote? My vote isn't going to change the outcome one bit and therefore doesn't even matter. The outcome will be the same whether I vote or not. "But your vote does count," you might proclaim. "If you don't vote, you don't have any right to criticize the outcome," you might say. And I will agree with you, and I will use my vote to vote for the person I want to win, no matter their chances of winning. If elections were really about electing the person that the most people want, instead of about giving the appearance of choice by letting us chose between the 2 people that the corporate controlled parties have predetermined for us, then we'd have rank-order voting. Under rank order voting there are no spoilers, so maybe we should be more concerned that we have the wrong voting method.

lwf said:

Progressive liberals are a lot of things, but they not tribal. That's why they embrace immigration and want America to become a cultural melting pot where even the smallest cultural minorities enjoy the same rights as the majority. Conservatives tend to be far more tribal than liberals. Conservatives tend to fear any culture or lifestyle that isn't exactly like their own. They want America to remain a white, Christian majority. It doesn't get much more tribal than that.

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While you yourself might not be tribal, there is a large faction of the left that is. There is a large faction that won't vote for Bernie not based on his ideas but because (as I said in my OP) "he is not really a Democrat." There is also a large faction on the identity politics side of the left that actively work to exclude people that aren't a sufficient level of "woke." They create ever-increasing litmus tests for inclusion and exclude everyone else as the other.

Mr Person said:

...and then some just like to stir the pot, which is not what you're supposed to do with pot but anyway....

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I read Bodhisattva's post as being deliberately ironic. Hopefully that was the intent.

RaleBulgarian said:

:lamo Seriously? Speak for yourself. Not everyone requires hours to contemplate another posters comment, or formulate a cogent response.

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I'll get back to you tomorrow after I mull this over during intense meditation and introspection...

Etallium said:

While you yourself might not be tribal, there is a large faction of the left that is. There is a large faction that won't vote for Bernie not based on his ideas but because (as I said in my OP) "he is not really a Democrat." There is also a large faction on the identity politics side of the left that actively work to exclude people that aren't a sufficient level of "woke." They create ever-increasing litmus tests for inclusion and exclude everyone else as the other.

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Yes, the political "left" is just as tribal as anybody. Maybe more. That is why they inspired such and intense backlash. The only thing Trump supporters really have in common is they are sick of being bullied by progressives/liberals.

Etallium said:

I'm curious to hear more follow up from you on your reasoning. I actually do agree with you, that on a purely pragmatic level that this can have the outcome that is less desirable under the current circumstances. However, you can make this argument about any voting procedure. As a leftist in a Red state, why should I even go vote? My vote isn't going to change the outcome one bit and therefore doesn't even matter. The outcome will be the same whether I vote or not. "But your vote does count," you might proclaim. "If you don't vote, you don't have any right to criticize the outcome," you might say. And I will agree with you, and I will use my vote to vote for the person I want to win, no matter their chances of winning. If elections were really about electing the person that the most people want, instead of about giving the appearance of choice by letting us chose between the 2 people that the corporate controlled parties have predetermined for us, then we'd have rank-order voting. Under rank order voting there are no spoilers, so maybe we should be more concerned that we have the wrong voting method.

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Rank order voting would be interesting on the national level just to see the shock on the faces of many who, inadvertently, helped the “wrong person” to be elected.
But we know the two main parties would do everything within their powers, working hand-in-hand if necessary, to make sure that never happens.

As for “throwing your vote away” on a 3rd party candidate goes, it is what it is. While I agree with your view that we should vote for who we want to win, reality is that if that person isn’t the R or D candidate, your vote won’t matter.