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Prediction: Warren moves to the center, loses the primary.

Which is better, to offer "nothing" or to offer a bunch of stuff that will never come to fruition?

Obviously the latter. The future is not written, and if you fight for nothing then you get nothing by default. You get apathy, and ultimately you get Trump or worse. Sanders is engaging in fight that could last decades, and in the fighting, he transforms the discussion. He creates a movement. The people he has inspired (e.g. AOC) already have power to rival Pelosi herself in sheer influence. That's how you get a revolution. If Sanders gets 50% of what he aims for, that's better than Amy Klobuchar's default surrender.

 
Word of advice then: Don't write checks you can't cash.
:lamo

You've spent this entire thread making accusations, exaggerations, mocked my ideology (saying that I should simply be a communist), and have been outright lying. Which you are certainly entitled to do. However, it shows that my OP greatly triggered you. And there's really no way around this fact. You've spent ~10 pages on pure nonsense.

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But you will hypocritically continue to pretend as though you can read my mind.

Get over yourself already. You've revealed way too much with the worthless words that you choose to write. :)

Well, it is my thread.

Wait, you STILL think you get to dictate what I can and cannot say here? You actually think you have that power here? :D

Seriously, you've offered nothing decent that I can go on. Even your OP was just regurgitated propaganda that looks like it was copy-pasted from some left-wing website. It's not like you've added literally anything to this discussion anywhere in this thread.

But that's not the main reason I've been critiquing you. No, that would be that this worship of Sanders is in many ways a dogma. I used to be a dogmatic religious person, so I know what dogmatism looks like when I see it. And this practical worship of Bernie Sanders and the attacks that rain down on anyone who critiques him? Yeah. It is not a stretch to call it a religion. Hell, Sanders himself calls his campaign a "movement." Like I said, I know what I see when I see it.

Can you address that in a completely non-defensive manner? Sure, if you wanted to. But I'm not holding out hope. :shrug:
 
Obviously the latter. The future is not written, and if you fight for nothing then you get nothing by default. You get apathy, and ultimately you get Trump or worse. Sanders is engaging in fight that could last decades, and in the fighting, he transforms the discussion. He creates a movement. The people he has inspired (e.g. AOC) already have power to rival Pelosi herself in sheer influence. That's how you get a revolution. If Sanders gets 50% of what he aims for, that's better than Amy Klobuchar's default surrender.



"obviously the latter"

No. When you promise things you cannot achieve, you are lying.
 
Get over yourself already. You've revealed way too much with the worthless words that you choose to write. :)

That's your opinion.

Wait, you STILL think you get to dictate what I can and cannot say here? You actually think you have that power here? :D

No, you asked why I'm responding. It's my thread.

Seriously, you've offered nothing decent that I can go on. Even your OP was just regurgitated propaganda that looks like it was copy-pasted from some left-wing website.

Mr. Rick Santorum re-emerges.

It's not like you've added literally anything to this discussion anywhere in this thread.

That's because I've been dragging you for the past 10 pages.

But that's not the main reason I've been critiquing you.

You've yet to critique my OP.

No, that would be that this worship of Sanders is in many ways a dogma. I used to be a dogmatic religious person, so I know what dogmatism looks like when I see it. And this practical worship of Bernie Sanders and the attacks that rain down on anyone who critiques him? Yeah. It is not a stretch to call it a religion. Hell, Sanders himself calls his campaign a "movement." Like I said, I know what I see when I see it.

Triggered much? I have said literally NOTHING in this thread that would suggest that I'm a religious fanatic for Bernie Sanders. But since you can read minds, you have me all figured out.

Can you address that in a completely non-defensive manner? Sure, if you wanted to. But I'm not holding out hope. :shrug:

I'll address you in a serious manner when drop the shtick. If you want my opinion then ask for it. That seems like a simple request. If you cannot engage me with respect then I won't treat you with respect. I'll just continue to drag you.
 
There's no room to the left of Bernie Sanders among the candidates. Warren can not out-progressive Bernie. Warren has now said she's going to evaluate the Medicare For All numbers and put forth an analysis on how to pay for it. That would seem like a first step as a presidential candidate before endorsing Bernie's plan.

I'd put any amount of money on Warren moving to the right of Sanders on healthcare reform. She's a politician at heart, not a revolutionary. You may like that, and that's great, but Warren will see room in the moderate/center with Biden's decline. She will grow in power among the moderates, but decline among the progressives. Part of her base will break for Bernie. Warren will be cornered in fund-raising, as she has already made a pledge not to take corporate money.

Bernie's war-chest will grow, Warren's will wane. From there it will be death by a thousand cuts.

I like Warren in some respects, and would vote for her if she was the last person standing, but she's no Bernie.

Warren's number crunching is always "Tax the 1%!!!!!!"
 
That's your opinion.

No, you asked why I'm responding. It's my thread.

Mr. Rick Santorum re-emerges.

That's because I've been dragging you for the past 10 pages.

You've yet to critique my OP.

Triggered much? I have said literally NOTHING in this thread that would suggest that I'm a religious fanatic for Bernie Sanders. But since you can read minds, you have me all figured out.

I'll address you in a serious manner when drop the shtick. If you want my opinion then ask for it.

I already did. Repeatedly. But you have gone out of your way to prove the all-give-and-no-take attitude that I accused you of. :laughat: I'd like to have a civil conversation with you about Sanders, but the problem is that the second I offer one word of criticism about him, you go ape****. You did that very early in this thread and never looked back.

You are free to prove me wrong with your actions. So far you have failed miserably to do that. I challenge you to take the higher road...if you can. :shrug:
 
I already did. Repeatedly. But you have gone out of your way to prove the all-give-and-no-take attitude that I accused you of. :laughat: I'd like to have a civil conversation with you about Sanders, but the problem is that the second I offer one word of criticism about him, you go ape****. You did that very early in this thread and never looked back.

You are free to prove me wrong with your actions. So far you have failed miserably to do that. I challenge you to take the higher road...if you can. :shrug:

You lost the debate, you failed to make whatever case you were trying to make, and you only demeaned yourself in the trying. And now, having revealed yourself, you try to hide your hands after having just spent 10 pages throwing rocks at me.

To quote the late-great Mick Mulvaney, 'I have news for you. Get over it.'
 
You lost the debate, you failed to make whatever case you were trying to make, and you only demeaned yourself in the trying. And now, having revealed yourself, you try to hide your hands after having just spent 10 pages throwing rocks at me.

To quote the late-great Mick Mulvaney, 'I have news for you. Get over it.'

And there it is, folks. I offer him an olive branch and a chance to try again, and that is what he does with it. Yet again making my point for me. :)

This is what we have come to expect from way too many Sanders supporters. Not only is this subset of them all-give-and-no-take: They won't even address the relevant issues. They won't even address the political viability of M4A, for example, or how miserably single-payer has politically failed in every single state where it's been tried. Just watch his reaction to that comment of mine and you will see exactly what I am talking about. :shrug:
 
And there it is, folks. I offer him an olive branch and a chance to try again

Thanks, but I don't need an olive branch from someone who has spent the past 10-pages throwing rocks at me. I actually gave you an olive branch one the first page, you decided to throw more rocks. So I guess we're done here.
 
Thanks, but I don't need an olive branch from someone who has spent the past 10-pages throwing rocks at me. I actually gave you an olive branch one the first page, you decided to throw more rocks. So I guess we're done here.

If that is a surrender, I will accept it. :)

Next time I suggest that you learn to actually weather a few blows when your views are questioned. Fun fact, not all of us are on board with Sanders. As in, when a Washington Post poll was taken a few months ago, Sanders was the number two candidate mentioned on "who do you most want to drop out?"

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Source (sorry, it's behind a paywall--if anyone has a free link to this poll, I'll add it)

Sanders, as it turns out, was the candidate who earned the second-most heavy support for dropping out of the race. Forty-two percent of respondents supported de Blasio exiting; just over a third of respondents said the same of Sanders. It’s likely that this is, in part, a function of the 2016 election, in which Sanders’s unexpectedly strong candidacy — and rhetoric — earned him both staunch supporters and detractors.

It could be problematic in 2020. As you’d expect, most Sanders supporters say they’re excited about his candidacy, and none told Suffolk that they wanted him to drop out. On average, among supporters of the other four leading candidates, 44 percent say they’re enthusiastic about Sanders and 35 percent say they want him to drop out.

He's got his enthusiastic supporters, yes, but he also has a LOT of people who were finished with him years ago.

We need someone who can unite the base. Not fracture it again like he helped fracture it in 2016. (Uh-oh, I just insulted him again, I'd better get ready for another defensive reaction. :lol: )
 
So Warren fails your progressive purity test. Got it.

It's not about purity tests, we've had this conversation before. It's about who some of us believe will fight for the policies they propose, and frankly, Warren has waffled back and forth on M4A and that is enough for me to not support her in the primary. In the general she will have my support, I am supporting anyone who runs against Trump.

FYI: the "Bernie Bro" myth has since been completely smashed. Sanders has the most diverse base out of -every- dem candidate. No one comes close to his diversity. So this isn't about sexism or "ignoring Bernie's pitfalls" or any "progressive purity test." It's about who will rally a large enough constituency to get things done - that's why I support Sanders over Warren.

Warren has some very, very solid proposals. Her wealth tax proposal is fantastic. Her work for the CFPB was incredible and I am very irate Trump essentially gutted it. The issue with Warren is her lack of support among key constituencies - which can be remedied, but time will tell. Leaked audio came out the other day showing her wafflinf on M4A and discussing incremental change; as someone who does not approve of incremental change with regard to healthcare, this is alarming to me. If M4A is implemented incrementally, we will see the same sort of industry push back that has stifled all progress in almost every other area, via legislative fiat from the right wing. They will immediately set to work undermining M4A.

M4A is the primary issue for me this time around. It needs to be passed 100% single payer coverage. Why? Once installed, it's going to be ridiculously popular AND shielded from the undermining republicans love to do. The public won't tolerate it. If the majority of the public is kept out of it, via incremental changes or allowances based on age or "public options" then a facet of the public will not know how much it benefits them and not work to protect it.

That's my case -against- supporting Warren in the primary. To you that may be a purity test. To me it's about getting the job done. Sanders has shown he has that capacity. He has worked hand over fist for 40 years to get to this moment and stayed in solidarity with that vision regardless of political consequences.

MY hope is Sanders wins the primary and plugs Warren for a cabinet position, or even VP. Warren seals up the voters Bernie lacks; college educated whites, which form a majority of her support atm.
 
If that is a surrender, I will accept it. :)

Next time I suggest that you learn to actually weather a few blows when your views are questioned. Fun fact, not all of us are on board with Sanders. As in, when a Washington Post poll was taken a few months ago, Sanders was the number two candidate mentioned on "who do you most want to drop out?"

34G6EVYLFJBHZERAYAGTKGX7QA.jpg


Source (sorry, it's behind a paywall--if anyone has a free link to this poll, I'll add it)



He's got his enthusiastic supporters, yes, but he also has a LOT of people who were finished with him years ago.

We need someone who can unite the base. Not fracture it again like he helped fracture it in 2016. (Uh-oh, I just insulted him again, I'd better get ready for another defensive reaction. :lol: )

Ahh, the old WaPo bull****. You do know the WaPo was caught in a debacle, a spectacle if you will, when it said Sanders lied about the number of Americans filing bankruptcy, and then it was revealed that the WaPo had ran that very same story a year prior as complete fact? The WaPo is a bunch of nonsense with regard to Sanders.

As for the 2016 fracturing - yes, it happened. It also happened to the republicants. Ideologies grow and change. There is an insurgency into the democratic party to alter it from the corporatist, elitist clowns they are into a pro-worker party that is honest to the party's FDR roots. Blame Sanders, blame Clinton, none of it matters.

If you think Sanders "Divides people" you haven't watched his rallies or listened to his speeches. So please, before you attack more people for supporting sanders with absurd, childish posts calling things "purity tests", you should stop throwing around garbage nonsense about division when you aren't even educated on the topic.
 
If that is a surrender, I will accept it. :)

Sure, go ahead an accept a surrender that you arbitrarily decided I've given. It fits your modus operandi, doesn't it?

Next time I suggest that you learn to actually weather a few blows when your views are questioned.

You haven't really asked me any questions.

We need someone who can unite the base. Not fracture it again like he helped fracture it in 2016. (Uh-oh, I just insulted him again, I'd better get ready for another defensive reaction. :lol: )

Funny that you haven't even voiced support for a candidate. I really shows the weakness of your position.
 
Thanks, but I don't need an olive branch from someone who has spent the past 10-pages throwing rocks at me. I actually gave you an olive branch one the first page, you decided to throw more rocks. So I guess we're done here.

Phys251 has relentlessly attacked any pro-Bernie poster without actually ever admitting his own faults, hence me calling him out previously. He has no regard for your commentary or -why- you support Sanders over Wafflin' Warren. It's all about getting back at the Sanders voters for the 2016 election, as if Hillary needed any help losing the most winnable election in history.

Hillary never rallied in my state. I had sent emails to her campaign telling them about the miles and miles and miles stretches of Trump signs; not a hillary sign to be seen.

It's sad that Phys251 is stuck in auto-pilot, instead of validly discussing the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate, he is hell bent on smearing Senator Sanders and his supporters.

I offered him an olive branch in the past also; I will not do so again.
 
Phys251 has relentlessly attacked any pro-Bernie poster without actually ever admitting his own faults, hence me calling him out previously. He has no regard for your commentary or -why- you support Sanders over Wafflin' Warren. It's all about getting back at the Sanders voters for the 2016 election, as if Hillary needed any help losing the most winnable election in history.

Hillary never rallied in my state. I had sent emails to her campaign telling them about the miles and miles and miles stretches of Trump signs; not a hillary sign to be seen.

It's sad that Phys251 is stuck in auto-pilot, instead of validly discussing the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate, he is hell bent on smearing Senator Sanders and his supporters.

I offered him an olive branch in the past also; I will not do so again.

Seems we have similar experiences. I actually have no animosity towards Phy251. Just a lot less respect. This entire thread has been a waste. A few people wanted to discuss stuff, but it was overshadowed by 'You're a Bernie bro purisit!1!1! lol ;)'.

Hillary didn't lose because of Bernie Sanders, especially since more Bernie Sanders supporters voted for Hillary than Hillary supporters voted for Obama in 2008.

Trump won because he offered change, Hillary offered more of the same. That's the bottom line.
 
Seems we have similar experiences. I actually have no animosity towards Phy251. Just a lot less respect. This entire thread has been a waste. A few people wanted to discuss stuff, but it was overshadowed by 'You're a Bernie bro purisit!1!1! lol ;)'.

Hillary didn't lose because of Bernie Sanders, especially since more Bernie Sanders supporters voted for Hillary than Hillary supporters voted for Obama in 2008.

Trump won because he offered change, Hillary offered more of the same. That's the bottom line.

Precisely this, and in the hubris of establishment dems like Phys251, who seems via post history to lean further left than an establishment dem, he cannot see how his cannibalistic knife wielding is driving people away.

Hillary was a flawed candidate, like I said she never even rallied in my state. Hubris is a bitch, and it seems to be rampant among the sneering elites of both parties.

At the end of the day, regardless of Phys251's complaints, people are sick and ****ing tired of the status quo. The majority of americans support the majority (not all) of the progressive platform - some of the items even have majority republican support.

DENYING that will is why Hillary lost, and the elites can sneer and scoff all they like, but populism is back in style and they -will- lose if they don't wake up.
 
It's not about purity tests, we've had this conversation before. It's about who some of us believe will fight for the policies they propose, and frankly, Warren has waffled back and forth on M4A and that is enough for me to not support her in the primary. In the general she will have my support, I am supporting anyone who runs against Trump.

No, she's not waffling. She's leaving enough room for compromise to get enough Conservadem votes in Congress. We don't even know if we're going to take the Senate back yet. So I would much rather have a center-left president who has a little wiggle room to their policies than a leftist president who won't budge an inch, only to watch their progressive agenda die a cold, hard death.

FYI: the "Bernie Bro" myth has since been completely smashed. Sanders has the most diverse base out of -every- dem candidate. No one comes close to his diversity. So this isn't about sexism or "ignoring Bernie's pitfalls" or any "progressive purity test." It's about who will rally a large enough constituency to get things done - that's why I support Sanders over Warren.

BernieBros have nothing to do with enthusiasm. Nothing. Sanders does have a passionate base, I will give you that, but some--SOME--of his followers have gone way, way too far in the way they treat other people within the Democratic base. The BernieBros' fundamental problem is not their positions, but their tone and their methods of persuasion. Simply put, they choose not to understand that honey attracts more flies than vinegar.

Warren has some very, very solid proposals. Her wealth tax proposal is fantastic. Her work for the CFPB was incredible and I am very irate Trump essentially gutted it. The issue with Warren is her lack of support among key constituencies - which can be remedied, but time will tell. Leaked audio came out the other day showing her wafflinf on M4A and discussing incremental change; as someone who does not approve of incremental change with regard to healthcare, this is alarming to me. If M4A is implemented incrementally, we will see the same sort of industry push back that has stifled all progress in almost every other area, via legislative fiat from the right wing. They will immediately set to work undermining M4A.

You mentioned a word that progressives throw around a lot, and we need to talk about it: Incremental.

Incremental does not mean slow. It means additive, particularly in stages, as opposed to a one-time, Hail Mary attempt. Fun fact, you can have fast, incremental changes, which is exactly what I support. Fun fact, you can cross every "t" and dot every "i" while still moving at a fast pace. Computers do that all the time, for instance.

M4A is the primary issue for me this time around. It needs to be passed 100% single payer coverage. Why? Once installed, it's going to be ridiculously popular AND shielded from the undermining republicans love to do. The public won't tolerate it. If the majority of the public is kept out of it, via incremental changes or allowances based on age or "public options" then a facet of the public will not know how much it benefits them and not work to protect it.

Fair enough. But here's my concern: When someone says that they want single-payer, they're called a progressive. When someone asks how they're going to get to single-payer, what the step-by-step process will be, they're called a sellout.

How in the world is simply asking for a step-by-step plan on what would amount to the biggest overhaul of our healthcare system in US history selling out??

That's my case -against- supporting Warren in the primary. To you that may be a purity test. To me it's about getting the job done. Sanders has shown he has that capacity. He has worked hand over fist for 40 years to get to this moment and stayed in solidarity with that vision regardless of political consequences.

He's been remarkably consistent over the years, I'll give you that. But based on the fact that he has a grand total of three sponsored bills through Congress, two of which renamed post offices, I strongly disagree with your assertion of his ability to get stuff done. I know it's a dirty word in progressive circles, but getting stuff done requires some compromise. That's why, by contrast, Amy Klobuchar has over a hundred of her sponsored bills signed into law. Call her a moderate Democrat all you like, but she knows how to get **** done.

continued...
 
MY hope is Sanders wins the primary and plugs Warren for a cabinet position, or even VP. Warren seals up the voters Bernie lacks; college educated whites, which form a majority of her support atm.

If Sanders wins the primary, which I hope he doesn't, then I will absolutely vote for him. This isn't an election where I can afford to throw away my vote.

I just hope that all progressives will act the same if they don't get their way in the primary, either.

Phys251 has relentlessly attacked any pro-Bernie poster without actually ever admitting his own faults, hence me calling him out previously. He has no regard for your commentary or -why- you support Sanders over Wafflin' Warren. It's all about getting back at the Sanders voters for the 2016 election, as if Hillary needed any help losing the most winnable election in history.

And there it is. The all-give-and-no-take attitude, tossed in with the attacks on a woman that hasn't even been a candidate in three years. Was wondering when you were going to resort to this. :lol:

Hillary never rallied in my state. I had sent emails to her campaign telling them about the miles and miles and miles stretches of Trump signs; not a hillary sign to be seen.

I got over Hillary before 2016 was even over. It's been nearly three years since the 2016 election. Why are you still not over her? :)

It's sad that Phys251 is stuck in auto-pilot, instead of validly discussing the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate, he is hell bent on smearing Senator Sanders and his supporters.
:lamo

There are the projection and distortion I was waiting for! What took you so long? And why are you so defensive about critiques? Your defensiveness is proving the point I've been making this whole time, that so many Sanders fans are all-give-and-no-take.

I offered him an olive branch in the past also; I will not do so again.

And yet you keep responding to me. :)
 
Sure, go ahead an accept a surrender that you arbitrarily decided I've given. It fits your modus operandi, doesn't it?

So are you bowing out or not? This reminds me of that scene in Deadpool 2 where (spoiler alert) he just. Won't. Die. :lol:

You haven't really asked me any questions.
Do I need to search this thread to find all the questions I have asked you and you have NOT ONCE given a decent answer to? :lamo

Funny that you haven't even voiced support for a candidate. I really shows the weakness of your position.
:2funny:

Literally not a requirement whatsoever. Please, please stop deluding yourself into feeling that I am under any requirement to bow down to your--ahem--trumped up rules. ;)
 
So are you bowing out or not? This reminds me of that scene in Deadpool 2 where (spoiler alert) he just. Won't. Die. :lol:

Bowing out of what? Are you looking for the last word or something?

Do I need to search this thread to find all the questions I have asked you and you have NOT ONCE given a decent answer to?

I think the only question you've asked me was actually a ridiculous challenge, which put the onus on me to come up with a step-by-step, fool-proof plan to get M4A passed and signed into law. And if I couldn't do that, then that means Bernie Sanders isn't worth supporting. I gave you my answer -- which was to fight for it, full-force, and get what you can. If a compromise is to be made, then it must be made from a position of strength, not a preemptive retreat to the middle. Obamacare was based on a Republican idea and was still called socialist. They spent the next ~10 years trying to dismantle it. That's what Republicans think of your strategy.

Literally not a requirement whatsoever.

Releasing your tax returns also isn't a legal requirement, but it would definitely reveal a lot about Trump. I think you don't want to be pinned down on a position or candidate, because that would open you up to criticism. Again, I put my cards on the table because I have a strong hand. Lets see what you have, and whether it beats my Straight Flush.
 
No, she's not waffling. She's leaving enough room for compromise to get enough Conservadem votes in Congress. We don't even know if we're going to take the Senate back yet. So I would much rather have a center-left president who has a little wiggle room to their policies than a leftist president who won't budge an inch, only to watch their progressive agenda die a cold, hard death.

Conservadem votes in congress? I hate to break it to you, but Warren's "approval" among "conservadems" is really low, so these legislators have what incentive to side with her?

BernieBros have nothing to do with enthusiasm. Nothing. Sanders does have a passionate base, I will give you that, but some--SOME--of his followers have gone way, way too far in the way they treat other people within the Democratic base. The BernieBros' fundamental problem is not their positions, but their tone and their methods of persuasion. Simply put, they choose not to understand that honey attracts more flies than vinegar.

And some - SOME - of the more centrist type democrats have gone way too far in allowing the overton window to shift further and further right as time has gone on. Additionally, I can say the exact same thing about -some- of those moderate/centrist dems and how they treat folks like me, right?

You mentioned a word that progressives throw around a lot, and we need to talk about it: Incremental.

Incremental does not mean slow. It means additive, particularly in stages, as opposed to a one-time, Hail Mary attempt. Fun fact, you can have fast, incremental changes, which is exactly what I support. Fun fact, you can cross every "t" and dot every "i" while still moving at a fast pace. Computers do that all the time, for instance.

The issue with this country and "moving fast" is that any move will be tied up in endless litigation.

Fair enough. But here's my concern: When someone says that they want single-payer, they're called a progressive. When someone asks how they're going to get to single-payer, what the step-by-step process will be, they're called a sellout.

How in the world is simply asking for a step-by-step plan on what would amount to the biggest overhaul of our healthcare system in US history selling out??

Frankly, I couldn't care less about the title progressive, or sell out. It's irrelevant to me, so I am unsure why you keep bringing it up.

I explained how it is selling out. It is wishful thinking that incremental changes would not eventually bog down and once Warren is out of office, stopped entirely. The right is INFAMOUS for this.

He's been remarkably consistent over the years, I'll give you that. But based on the fact that he has a grand total of three sponsored bills through Congress, two of which renamed post offices, I strongly disagree with your assertion of his ability to get stuff done. I know it's a dirty word in progressive circles, but getting stuff done requires some compromise. That's why, by contrast, Amy Klobuchar has over a hundred of her sponsored bills signed into law. Call her a moderate Democrat all you like, but she knows how to get **** done.

Ah, the typical one punch line; a nothing burger. Sanders has fought -for the american people- at every turn. Here. Go ahead and read some of his accomplishments.

Here’s A LONG List Of Bernie Sanders’ Accomplishments (WITH CITATIONS) | Addicting Info | The Knowledge You Crave
 
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